Question on education

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Vaucluse
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Post by Vaucluse » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 6:36 pm

Taxes - you get a [-( for the pretty boy comment
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'nuff said Image

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Post by dot dot dot » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 6:53 pm

I somehow 'guess' our 'guest' is a future (foreign) student, still having to learn a lot about reality.

Whether you believe it or not, the money any foreign student will bring in to the local economy in Europe, is not even a fraction of what it will cost the university to provide the program / studies to this person.

And just to ensure: Me too, I have nothing against foreign students studying in Holland, I fully support it, but I also agree to the reciprocation thought of vaucluse.

And I don't see anything wrong in foreign students having to pay for their studies in Europe, just as the locals. Maybe a different fee, or being subsidized by their own country of origin or sponsored, but not for free. I always get a bit allergic to this thought that everything should be free...

Eric

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Post by Vaucluse » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 8:35 pm

Yup, Eric, nothing is free - someone always has to pay for it. I would certainly not be hppy to have my taxes pay for foreign students and luckily this 'free' education will stop in Germany soon as well - like it did in Holland - it is simply too expensive.

Just imagine some old codger paying tax on his pension and subsidising the son/daughter of a wealthy or middle class foreigner . . . How will he benefit from this?

Shame, I am off to Malaysia for the rest of the week, would love to continue this topic.
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'nuff said Image

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 9:28 pm

That Singaporeans spend S$100000 on US education (while it is free for non-EU citizens in many European countries), or study in Australia (where racism is rampant) is beyond me.

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Post by dot dot dot » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:14 pm

Anonymous wrote:That Singaporeans spend S$100000 on US education (while it is free for non-EU citizens in many European countries), or study in Australia (where racism is rampant) is beyond me.
A lot of things seem beyond you. Never mind, it comes with age.

Eric

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Post by mysticalx » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:21 pm

There are in fact many universities in Europe/Scandinavia offering international masters programmes in ENGLISH. You don't even have to pick up the language if you don't want to but of course what's the point of studying abroad if you're not bothered about the culture and language?However, you'll find most of these courses in the scientific field like engineering, computer science etc. You won't find many Bachelor's programmes in English either but it's still free and there's no harm in learning a foreign language. I know my Dad did his university studies in Germany back in the late 60s/early 70s and he still remembers and even uses German till now.

A few examples of free education in Europe/Scandinavia:

Sweden - KTH
http://www.kth.se/eng/education/program ... index.html

Sweden - Chalmers
http://www.chalmers.se/en/sections/educ ... iving_cost

Finland - Helsinki University of Technology
http://www.sahko.tkk.fi/english/ICT/costs.htm

Germany - TUM (Not sure why one of the posters couldn't view the link but here it is again)
http://www.cse.tum.de/applying/financial.html

I'm not saying education is free all over Europe. I believe it used to be free in Denmark till this year and Sweden is thinking of doing the same (ahhh...I hope not!!!).

Found it funny how some people think that we're out to get 'free' education. We still pay for living expenses etc and most of the foreign students in these universities come from everywhere around the world. You'll see many South Americans, Chinese, Iranians, Africans, not that many south-east asians just yet (quite a number of Indonesians though) but getting there! Not all foreigners are loaded and they too have to struggle to making a living there by working part time or something. Some of them come from countries where their education system is not very well recognized so this comes as an opportunity to get a good education.

By the way I have to say that Australian universities are a bit more money-minded. They take in many foreign students so long as they can pay up their tuition fees. As a result, you get a lot of foreign students who are there just because their parents can afford to.

Singapore, on the other hand, offers MANY scholarships to students from all over Asia and beyond. It is almost like offering free education but of course they only give it to the cream of the crop. And tuition fees are "subsidized" for the rest who don't get a scholarship (but you still have to be good enough). Don't tell me they are doing all this just because they are feeling generous. As a matter of fact, they've got a very valid reason for doing so - they want the best people working in Singapore! This is good money and I wouldn't understand why Singapore would ever discourage foreign students from coming. Take note that most foreign students here in Singapore come from many of its less developed neighbouring countries. Without a scholarship or some form of subsidy, most of these foreign students won't be able to afford it.

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Post by dot dot dot » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:52 am

Keep in mind most of these 'free' programs do not give an (internationally) recognised degree, on the contrary. Even the Swedish examples you give, issue a degree that is not even recognised in Sweden, so you may wonder what your 'free' course is worth besides 'learning a new culture'.

And like vaucluse said as well, at the end of the day someone has to pay for the 'free' programs.

I suspect the mentioned 'universities' try to attract foreigners with these 'free' programs in order to compete with the universities which do have international status and standards.

I mean, imagine yourself doing a one and a half year 'free' course, getting a ''Magisterexamen med inriktning mot ' degree in Sweden, then start applying and getting to hear every time that you need at least a 'Civilingenjör' Swedish degree. Then what can you do? Go back to Singapore and start applying with your non-recognised 'free' Swedish 'degree'? :?

You get what you pay for, and since it was for 'free', you can fill in what you get at the end of the day...

Eric

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Post by Guest » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 3:45 pm

Eric you can not say that the degree is not recognized.

Here is the list of the top 20 business schools in Europe based on the Financial Times (Ranking of master of management program in 2005) with costs for Non Europeans citizens.

Here are the costs, and graduate salary.

Helsinki School of Economics (Finland)
Annual costs: Free For Foreigners
Graduate Salary: EUR 41,000 (S$81,000)

Norwegian School of Economics and Bus. Adm. (Norway)
Annual costs: Free For Foreigners
Graduate Salary: EUR 43,000 (S$87,000)

University of Cologne (Germany)
Annual costs: EUR 1,300 (S$2,640)
Graduate Salary: EUR 52,000 (S$105,000)

ESCP-EAP Paris (France)
Annual costs: EUR 6,900 (S$14,000)
Graduate Salary: EUR 47,600 (S$96,000)

Stockholm Business School (Sweden)
Annual costs: EUR 8,000 (S$16,300)
Graduate Salary: EUR 40,000 (S$80,000)

Copenhagen Business School (Denmark)
Annual costs: EUR 12,500 (S$25,000)
Graduate Salary: EUR 47,500 (S$96,000)

Vienna University of Economics and Business (Austria)
Annual costs:EUR 1,500 (S$3,050)
Graduate Salary: EUR 39.000 (S$79,000)

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Post by dot dot dot » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 3:56 pm

I can't deny facts when they are published as such, but salaries of around 40k Euros to 55K Euros for graduates are certainly not my experience when having worked for over 10 years in Europe, I would say a 20-25k Euros is more realistic for a fresh graduate (IF getting a job already...)...

For the rest, all I am saying, be careful when choosing the university, an internationally recognised degree is much more worth when aiming at a succesfull career. If I would have the option to choose from an internationally well known university or institute, where I had to pay a large sum of money, or on the other hand any free course at any university, I would opt for the first.

I would put the emphasis on the international standard of the university, not at all on the costs involved.

Eric

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Post by Guest » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 9:54 pm

Well apparently my free course in Chalmers (Sweden) would earn me a "civilingenjörsexamen" (M.Sc. in Engineering) :P

"Upon completion of studies, candidates will be granted the degree "civilingenjörsexamen" which is equivalent to a Master of Science (MSc) degree. Chalmers is accredited by the National Agency for Higher Education (HSV)."

Don't believe? Check
http://www.chalmers.se/en/sections/educ ... er/degrees

I believe you ONLY saw the link I posted for KTH. The "Magisterexamen" is just a plain Masters degree and not a 'Civilingenjör' which is a professional engineering degree. The reason they stated that is probably because they want to make sure that you know exactly what you're getting (NOT a professional engineering degree). Maybe you would like to look at this instead, still KTH but a Master of Science in Engineering degree.

http://www.kth.se/eng/education/program ... gineering/

"Students who have successfully completed the study programme will be awarded the Swedish professional degree 'Civilingenjörsexamen', translated into English as 'Degree of Master of Science in Engineering, Degree programme in (name of the programme)'.

By the way, these two universities are quite reputable. I wonder what the Swedes would say if you told them otherwise. :???: It's like you're telling me that degrees in Scandinavia are worthless?!?!? A conducive environment for any institution of higher learning to thrive is one that has first class infrastructure and at the same time a melting pot of cultures of sorts whereby you get different perspectives from people all over the world.

In fact universities in Finland (and possibly Sweden etc) even offer free Bachelor's programmes (though in their native language). Have got friends studying there for Masters and I've also been there myself as part of my Bachelor's degree. Read in TIMES magazine some time ago that Finland is also the best place for a student. :)

Also, I'm not saying that degrees in Singapore are not internationally recognized. Quite the contrary. I was referring to degrees like in Malaysia for example.

And no one ever said anything about going for free education that are not very well recognized. It's about finding good education at an affordable price. Remember you have to pay for living expenses. Studying in Europe/Scandinavia may not be cheap but it works out to be quite a good option if you compare it to the UK, US or Australia.

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Post by mysticalx » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 9:59 pm

That was me...

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Post by Guest » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:11 pm

Regarding the European school list I provided above, these are all recognized and highly reputable !

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Post by dot dot dot » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:00 pm

up to you...

But before you start studying, first learn to read well, I never said those universities are no good, I just gave a general advice on how to choose and what to prioritize. Don't concentrate on what it costs, but look at what it will bring you at the end.

NUS is higher on the list of internationally reputed universities btw...

If you really wanna have a name on your resume, go and try to study at Harvard, Yale, Oxford or alike.

Oh, and check the cost of living in countries like Sweden, Norway or Finland.

Just a silly example, but a cucumber in Norway doesnot go by price per piece or weight, but a price per part of a cucumber.

You'll be shocked... :shock:

No hawkercentres either.

Eric

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Post by thetruthisoutthere » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:21 pm

another eric tactic. when faced with overwhelming evidence that he is wrong in the original topic thread then the try to divert the original topic to other things like the cost of cucumbers in norway so he can still maintain his 'superiority' complex instead of just acknowledging someone else actually was correct. the "i may not always be right but i am never wrong" type.

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Post by dot dot dot » Wed, 19 Oct 2005 11:31 pm

thetruthisoutthere wrote:another eric tactic. when faced with overwhelming evidence that he is wrong in the original topic thread then the try to divert the original topic to other things like the cost of cucumbers in norway so he can still maintain his 'superiority' complex instead of just acknowledging someone else actually was correct. the "i may not always be right but i am never wrong" type.

overwhelming evidence that he is wrong in the original topic thread

Just to remind you: the original topic is about supposedly free education in The Netherlands. I answered that one, I didnot divert from that, it's not a matter of right or wrong at all. The discussion as such diverted to education in Europe in general. Again not in terms of right or wrong.

Be concrete in you accusations please.... :?

Where do I take a sideroad, what do I deny and what its the truth as opposed to what I have said?

Literally please ok, so gimme some quotes here?

And don't hide behind your incognito 'guest' name here, which postings are yours and take responsibility for it.... If you happen to be the OP, I find your attitude quite offensive to be honest. You ask me for information, I supply you with information and then you take it this way.

Show that attitude in your future studies in Europe and you'll be having a hard time over there, it is regarded as the attitude of a spoilt brad with a big mouth and no brains.

Eric

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