Question on education

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locallass
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Post by locallass » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:50 am

Vaucluse, you may be interested to know that one of my friends is doing his GRE (Masters in Engineering) in Berlin. Among my classmates at Goethe Institut, one will going to Germanynext year to do her Phd and another, her degeree. All because the university fees in Germany are affordable or nominal. I myself was considering doing my MBA there at one time because of the cost.

Most of the courses are taught entirely in German and we need to learn German for around 4 years before we'll qualify. But they also have International MBAs nowadays- a two-year programme in English, but inclusive of some German lessons for students to pick up the language. That is what most of us go for.

Even though it may sound silly for the government to subsidise foreigners for higher education, it's a good way to spread the German culture, language and influence. More importantly, many of us also end up working for German firms as employees or with them in business deals. With so much benefits in boosting trade and international relations, this could be considered an investment well spent, don't you think?

(Of course, I'm also saying this because I wanted to go to Germany at one point in time :P )

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:59 am

Same in France, education was free for foreigners because it was a way to encourage foreigners to learn French (since university classes are taught in French). It was also a way to spread the culture and the French influence in the country of origin of the foreign students.

The marginal cost of having one more student in a classroom is very low: if you have 36 students in a classroom instead of 35, what are the additional costs? Just another administrative file for the university (a couple of hundred dollars, nothing much really), and a little more time for the professor to mark one more manuscript, again nothing much really. Students and professors know that the marginal costs of having one or two additional foreign students in the classroom are very low, and consequently, there is no resentment against foreigners.

Professors in Europe are also happy to have foreigners in their classroom because it brings diversity, not to mention the fact that it is part of the public mission of Uni profs to help less developped nations.

For your information, foreign students bring $13 billions dollars in the US economy every year. At least, in Europe, foreign students do not feel that they are subsidising the education of American students.

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Post by locallass » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 12:21 pm

Anonymous wrote:Professors in Europe are also happy to have foreigners in their classroom because it brings diversity
I'm told that foreign students are welcome because they add a more international perspective to the discussions and provide a good source of cultural exchange to the local students.

About the spending power of foreign students... it's true. The fees may be nominal but the living expenses will kill. We will have to spend a good deal on food etc when we’re there. My friend in Berlin is also planning to travel around in Europe during term breaks... and has invited me and other friends to join him :D I'm not sure if I'm going to do my Masters in Germany but I'm definitely going to visit and go on another holiday. So the foreign students also boost the tourism of the country when they study there. We may not be paying the school fees but we pay a good deal in other ways.

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 1:16 pm

Yeah, but you have the same cost of living and "tourism fees" in US, UK or australia.

EU is still a much cheaper option.

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Post by dot dot dot » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 1:30 pm

Anonymous wrote:what are the additional costs? Just another administrative file for the university (a couple of hundred dollars, nothing much really)
Ahum, make that about 4,000 Euros, just for the so called 'collegegelden' in Holland?

As said, studying has become a very expensive business these days for students in Holland. Estimated costs for university in Holland are around 25,000 Euros per year at least for a student. And then there is more and more studies with a so called 'numerus fixus', which means that even for the locals it is a lottery to get in and be able to do the kind of program they wish to study, for example medicins, pharmacy and dental science.

As far as I know, Holland never subsidized free university studies for foreigners.

I agree that in certain fields it would make a lot of sense to have more diversity, especially those studies aiming for international trade and commerce. But there it has always been the case, our Dutch famous private university 'Nijenrode' has always gotten a substantial amount of foreigners to do their MBA programmes and alike at this institute in Holland.

And in todays' climate, where more and more students have to fight for being able to get into the desired programms at university, it would not get so much of a support from the locals to have foreigners take up the places.

Again, I am talking about Holland, not about other countries in Europe.

Eric

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 2:47 pm

Estimated costs for university in Holland are around 25,000 Euros per year at least for a student

What is this figure ? Does it include cost of living ? Are these university fees paid by Dutch nationals ? Foreigners ? Very confusing

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Post by dot dot dot » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 2:53 pm

These are the costs involved for the university to provide the student his/her program. No costs for living etc, just to enable the program.

One of the reasons the so called 'collegegeld' (entrance fee) has increased so much, as the universities are getting less and less subsidized by the Dutch government and need to make sure they are profitable.

More and more students in Holland work their butts off to be able to pay for the entrance fee alone, then they will keep a few parttime jobs to be able to support the daily costs for living and food etc.

Eric

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Post by Vaucluse » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 2:56 pm

I'd have to agree with Eric here about the costs of having foreign students, it is not merely just another form to fill out. While it is true that foreign students have a certain spending power, it is also true that local students would be the same. They would spend the same on board, food, books etc . . .
If fees were charged then one would have these funds plus fees pumped into the economy - like in the US, UK, Australia etc . . .

Please, please don't get me wrong, I am certainly not against foreign students - one of my Universities in Sydney was cram-packed full of foreign students, though I fail to see how they contributed to any intelectual discourse above and beyond what was there anyway.

As for spreading the culture, language or working for German companies, I don't see how this could be seen as a repayment for:

a) the German taxpayer funding your studies
b) taking away funds that could be used for healthcare or other infrastructure projects
c) local students missing out on studying (and would their long-term contribution to the economy not outweigh that of foreign students?)
d) uuuuhhh - too many issues to raise.

I believe it should be based on reciprocity - eg. if Singapore were to offer cost-free education for Germans then Germany should reciprocate. If not, then fees should be charged.

Locallass:
(Of course, I'm also saying this because I wanted to go to Germany at one point in time )
:P I would have thought your interest lay a bit further south of the border?? :wink:
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'nuff said Image

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 3:48 pm

a) the German taxpayer funding your studies : sum is repaid indirectly by spendings by foreigners (e.g. on accomodation, food, entertainment), all of these going into the economy.

b) taking away funds that could be used for healthcare or other infrastructure projects: again marginal costs of having one ot two more students per class is very very low (see above poster !). Don't fool yourself, we are not building universities for foreign students with tax-payer money !

c) local students missing out on studying (and would their long-term contribution to the economy not outweigh that of foreign students?) : This is calls meritocracy: would rather have good foreign students than lousy local ones.

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Post by Vaucluse » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 3:58 pm

Anonymous wrote:a) the German taxpayer funding your studies : sum is repaid indirectly by spendings by foreigners (e.g. on accomodation, food, entertainment), all of these going into the economy.

And if you add fees to that, the amount would be even greater

b) taking away funds that could be used for healthcare or other infrastructure projects: again marginal costs of having one ot two more students per class is very very low (see above poster !). Don't fool yourself, we are not building universities for foreign students with tax-payer money !

Add up one or two per class time the number of classes, times the number of universities - it is not a small number

c) local students missing out on studying (and would their long-term contribution to the economy not outweigh that of foreign students?) : This is calls meritocracy: would rather have good foreign students than lousy local ones.


It's called ensuring that one's own population receives education before we can offer it to others - I really don't see a problem with that.

Again, please don't take my comments as being anti-foreign students. Not at all - I just believe that fees should be charged.


On the other hand - why would one expect to receive free education in another land when one's own government does not provide it?
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'nuff said Image

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Post by locallass » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 4:23 pm

Vaucluse wrote:
Locallass:
(Of course, I'm also saying this because I wanted to go to Germany at one point in time )
:P I would have thought your interest lay a bit further south of the border?? :wink:
Haha... yeah, I'm still good friends with my Austrian ex, though I'm not interested in restarting anything. The only other foreign boyfriend was Bavarian. Yes, all German-speaking men :)

But sorry, if I were to go, it's really because of the subsidised fees, not because of the men. Even pretty boys like yourself :P

Anyway I can understand your point about using taxpayer's money to fund the education of foreign student. People in Europe pay very high taxes, and often on things they may not agree on. Interestingly, Singapore once tried to do the same- offer subsidies to foreign students to study at NUS. It expectedly met with an uproar of protests too. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

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Post by Vaucluse » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 5:16 pm

locallass wrote:
Vaucluse wrote:
Locallass:
(Of course, I'm also saying this because I wanted to go to Germany at one point in time )
:P I would have thought your interest lay a bit further south of the border?? :wink:
Haha... yeah, I'm still good friends with my Austrian ex, though I'm not interested in restarting anything. The only other foreign boyfriend was Bavarian. Yes, all German-speaking men :)

But sorry, if I were to go, it's really because of the subsidised fees, not because of the men. Even pretty boys like yourself :P

Anyway I can understand your point about using taxpayer's money to fund the education of foreign student. People in Europe pay very high taxes, and often on things they may not agree on. Interestingly, Singapore once tried to do the same- offer subsidies to foreign students to study at NUS. It expectedly met with an uproar of protests too. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

:kiss:
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'nuff said Image

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 6:02 pm

Just a line to confirm that education is also free for foreigners (Non-European citizens) or nearly free as costs per year stand at about $S3,000 dollars.

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Post by Guest » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 6:08 pm

Forgot to add in the previous posting: that is in Austria.

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Post by locallass » Tue, 18 Oct 2005 6:21 pm

Vaucluse wrote:
locallass wrote:
Vaucluse wrote:
Locallass: :P I would have thought your interest lay a bit further south of the border?? :wink:
Haha... yeah, I'm still good friends with my Austrian ex, though I'm not interested in restarting anything. The only other foreign boyfriend was Bavarian. Yes, all German-speaking men :)

But sorry, if I were to go, it's really because of the subsidised fees, not because of the men. Even pretty boys like yourself :P

Anyway I can understand your point about using taxpayer's money to fund the education of foreign student. People in Europe pay very high taxes, and often on things they may not agree on. Interestingly, Singapore once tried to do the same- offer subsidies to foreign students to study at NUS. It expectedly met with an uproar of protests too. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

:kiss:
Ooh my first kiss from Vaucluse, haha... was that for the taxes or the pretty boy comment? :P

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