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Postby dot dot dot » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:08 pm

local lass wrote:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:
This is getting interesting...

Like you say Wimh, you get suspicious when the man in action understands the job too well.

And that is exactly where the barrier is: What are you afraid of? Just enjoy the excitement and the flirting itself, it is nice. Don't be suspicious, challenge the man in action.

Now that is the game I am talking about, that to me the Latinos understand like no other. But not only the latino man in action, also the latino woman would know it is just a game, it is enjoyment.

Translating that game by getting suspicious and saying: "ah, he just wants me to have a one night stand with him" (the worst that could happen?), would be a turn off already. It is all abou the flirting game, not the result of the game: flirt and enjoy, just like that. And leave it like that.

Eric


What are we afraid of Eric? We’re afraid of ourselves. We’re afraid that we’ll lose control and fall in love… with a man who isn’t serious about us despite all the attention and care he’s given us. We Singaporean women are not as experienced as our Latin sisters and don’t play the game as well. We can tell ourselves to lock our hearts away... but whether we succeed or not is another question.


So bottomline are Singaporean women afraid of their own sexuality or passion inside?
If I do not misinterprete (please do tell me if I do), in a way you are saying that at the end of the day it has to be serious if the man in action wants to have fun. The latino sisters play the same game and I am actually pretty sure they also will want to give their heart to the right person at the end of the day.

But maybe they are less afraid of the experiences in between the flirtations and the wedding ceremony :wink:

I feel it is a different approach in sexuality and how to experience that part of life.

Eric

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Postby dot dot dot » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:10 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:Gender is definitely of influence local lass. But in a combination with culture in that sense.

I know I am going to be flamed for this, but to me the most flirtatious and sensual women in Asia are by far the Thai women. No, not those you will find in OT, I am talking about the Thai women in Thailand itself. Their subtlety and sensuality comes quite close to what I encountered in Latin America. And not just the flirtation, also the passion in their daily life, which is quite different from what I experience in general here in Singapore.

Subtle movements and flirtations here in Singapore, at least mine, were mostly answered by extremely direct replies from Singapore women. But maybe that was just my "mismanagement" :lol:

Btw, I am talking about yeeeears ago now of course, happily married to a Singaporean woman. :wink:

Eric


Aww Eric, we Singaporean women are told we lose out all the time.... We're not as sexy as the Japanese, good at taking care of our men as the Mainland Chinese/Vietnamese.. and now you tell us we're not as flirtatious as the Thai girls as well! Darn, we sure are losing our charms, haha...


As said, I happily married a Singaporean woman at the end of the day... :wink:

Eric

local lass

Postby local lass » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:14 pm

unlocal lass wrote:
Darling,

You make me laugh, just b'because they invite you over with the offer of cooking you a meal, you assume they can cook well? Have you tasted their cooking, from you post, you said you never accepted their offers, so how do you know they can cook well? It's just another way to get into your panties dear...

If you are interested in Italian men, best you cook well. They are mommy's boy thru and thru...perhaps you have heard of the term "Mammoni"? They live with their mommies well into their 30s and even if they have bought their own homes and are still single, they will still live at home and enjoy mom's cooking and mom doing everything for them. So if you want to go out with Italian men, you better be prepared hear and compared to his mother a lot, not that there's anything wrong with that...so don't think the local men are such "losers' for still staying home even in their late 20s...and these days, many grown men in the US move back home to live with mom and dad to save money. I know of many guys(and gals) who live in their parents basement.


I have little illusions that the men want sex when they offer to cook for me. But to be courted this way is novel… and charming in its own way :)

I have no idea whether the men who wanted to cook for me could really cook. But I know of several French and Italian men in Singapore, the partners of friends and colleagues, who do. They are the ones who rule the kitchen, and not my female friends, when they throw parties.

Mommy’s boys… nothing new. We’re used to that in Singapore. That’s actually a familiar breed we know how to handle ;)

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Postby riversandlakes » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:16 pm

local lass wrote:What are we afraid of Eric? We’re afraid of ourselves. We’re afraid that we’ll lose control and fall in love… with a man who isn’t serious about us despite all the attention and care he’s given us.


That, lass, is a two-way street...
Goatboy will always cherish his former goatgirl.
But the world is full of fluffier ones.

local lass

Postby local lass » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:19 pm

Eric from the Netherlands wrote:
So bottomline are Singaporean women afraid of their own sexuality or passion inside?
If I do not misinterprete (please do tell me if I do), in a way you are saying that at the end of the day it has to be serious if the man in action wants to have fun. The latino sisters play the same game and I am actually pretty sure they also will want to give their heart to the right person at the end of the day.

But maybe they are less afraid of the experiences in between the flirtations and the wedding ceremony :wink:

I feel it is a different approach in sexuality and how to experience that part of life.

Eric


Afraid is perhaps not the right word Eric. Unused to playing this game is a better description. And when we face an experienced player, the odds are stacked against us. We Singaporeans are best known for being pragmatic. We know when to fold our cards when we have to ;)

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Postby dot dot dot » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:25 pm

local lass wrote:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:
So bottomline are Singaporean women afraid of their own sexuality or passion inside?
If I do not misinterprete (please do tell me if I do), in a way you are saying that at the end of the day it has to be serious if the man in action wants to have fun. The latino sisters play the same game and I am actually pretty sure they also will want to give their heart to the right person at the end of the day.

But maybe they are less afraid of the experiences in between the flirtations and the wedding ceremony :wink:

I feel it is a different approach in sexuality and how to experience that part of life.

Eric


Afraid is perhaps not the right word Eric. Unused to playing this game is a better description. And when we face an experienced player, the odds are stacked against us. We Singaporeans are best known for being pragmatic. We know when to fold our cards when we have to ;)


yep, I can subscribe to that, from experience... :wink:

Aya, be it Singapore, be it Brazil, be it Italy, Be it Holland... The world is fascinating, whereever you look at it.

Agree with you that in a lot of European / Singapore marriages the man is the one in the kitchen, that includes this household. 8)

Eric

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Postby superedge » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:26 pm

Eric from the Netherlands wrote:Although related, I am not referring to the Southern European countries. Here it is still very straightforward and mainly verbal flirting (Italians have strong gestures though).

In South America and the Caribbean there is so much more art in flirting. It is not just a whistle, eyecontact or some pick up line. It is in their total behaviour, it is a mix of gentleness, discretion, movements, gestures, complimenting without being direct, smiling etc etc. I bet even the sourest grapes would melt over there. One cannot resist their immense attention.

Sensuality and erotics are much more part of daily life in for example Brazil.

Carlos Drummond de Andrade is a good example. Probably Brazil's most famous poet / writer, he is highly regarded in Brazil, where the people all know him and adore him. Here in Singapore his poems would most definitely be seen as pornography, thus not allowed.

Here's an example of how he can put it into words:

No corpo feminino, esse retiro
No corpo feminino, esse retiro
- a doce bunda - é ainda o que prefiro.
A ela, meu mais íntimo suspiro,
pois tanto mais a apalpo quanto a miro.

Que tanto mais a quero, se me firo
em unhas protestantes, e respiro
a brisa dos planetas, no seu giro
lento, violento... Então, se ponho e tiro

a mão em concha - a mão, sábio papiro,
iluminando o gozo, qual lampiro,
ou se, dessedentado, já me estiro,

me penso, me restauro, me confiro,
o sentimento da morte eis que o adquiro:
de rola, a bunda torna-se vampiro.



I leave it to Superedge, our Brazilian forum member to translate the way he describes such beauty as the female body. :wink:

My point, it is unexplainable, but the swing of the flirt in those countries is a zillion miles away from the Singapore swing.... (and the Dutch as well by the way).

Eric



Eric..my friend. What I nice catch!!! That's Drummond indeed. I am very impressed with your cultural perception. You indeed has experienced la vida latina.

Indeed, asians are very much conservative. Latins are much more 'user-friendly' if we can say that...and in fact, IMHO men here treat ladies as they were nothing (my perception and that just bothers me)... the guys here just go out with other guys, the women are pretty much submissive and the guys talk to women as if they were other guys, and not softly. I am still not used to it...

latin men style put women in the skies, heaven or some sort of place *above* them. It is important to have a very very pleased woman, because this can tell A LOT about you for the society and your friends...and for other girls.

myself...I am breaking some of the barriers here at the office, for example. every morning I try to say something nice to the ladies here, sometimes I bring a flower to some of them, sometimes I learn a little verse from some pop romantic chinese song and I sing to them...little things, you know.

and they are very much open to me ritgh now. we talk a lot about many things, they show me their pictures, wedding album, their mp3s at their desks. I even now go out to lunch with them not more often than with the guys...:) anyway, I just LOVE the women behavior and presence. And you know what...they are changing too. I can tell.

Latin guys are 'machistas'? yes, we are! but differently from the 'local asian machismo' we always bring a rose in our mouth ;) and I do not need to enroll a downpayment of a brand new BMW or Mercedez for the next 10 years to get confident for that.

and I just have 1 month living here in singapore, but happy with so many friends I made so far.

Now..about the poem... you just place me in a very very difficult position :)

First, who am I to translate Drummond? I am just a poor mortal with a very modest vocabulary, specially in english.

I stopped for 30 minutes to translate the first phrase with help of some english translators friends and we could not find a good one.

Second, (according to professionals) would be a downgrade to translate a latin poem to a anglican or saxon or english language...there are just no words to express the same feeling and some of them even do not have a translation , like 'saudade', 'suspiro', 'dessedentado' and 'lampiro'.

I will try anyway...

unlocal lass

Postby unlocal lass » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:47 pm

Is the poem called "appariation of love" ?

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Postby dot dot dot » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:52 pm

unlocal lass wrote:Is the poem called "appariation of love" ?


Not that I am aware of, but the portuguese title is 'No corpo feminino, esse retiro', which (this is cursing, I am translating Drummond...) could be read as something like "In the feminine body, this retiring", but that is far too literal.

Eric

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Postby dot dot dot » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 5:58 pm

superedge wrote:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:Although related, I am not referring to the Southern European countries. Here it is still very straightforward and mainly verbal flirting (Italians have strong gestures though).

In South America and the Caribbean there is so much more art in flirting. It is not just a whistle, eyecontact or some pick up line. It is in their total behaviour, it is a mix of gentleness, discretion, movements, gestures, complimenting without being direct, smiling etc etc. I bet even the sourest grapes would melt over there. One cannot resist their immense attention.

Sensuality and erotics are much more part of daily life in for example Brazil.

Carlos Drummond de Andrade is a good example. Probably Brazil's most famous poet / writer, he is highly regarded in Brazil, where the people all know him and adore him. Here in Singapore his poems would most definitely be seen as pornography, thus not allowed.

Here's an example of how he can put it into words:

No corpo feminino, esse retiro
No corpo feminino, esse retiro
- a doce bunda - é ainda o que prefiro.
A ela, meu mais íntimo suspiro,
pois tanto mais a apalpo quanto a miro.

Que tanto mais a quero, se me firo
em unhas protestantes, e respiro
a brisa dos planetas, no seu giro
lento, violento... Então, se ponho e tiro

a mão em concha - a mão, sábio papiro,
iluminando o gozo, qual lampiro,
ou se, dessedentado, já me estiro,

me penso, me restauro, me confiro,
o sentimento da morte eis que o adquiro:
de rola, a bunda torna-se vampiro.



I leave it to Superedge, our Brazilian forum member to translate the way he describes such beauty as the female body. :wink:

My point, it is unexplainable, but the swing of the flirt in those countries is a zillion miles away from the Singapore swing.... (and the Dutch as well by the way).

Eric



Eric..my friend. What I nice catch!!! That's Drummond indeed. I am very impressed with your cultural perception. You indeed has experienced la vida latina.

Indeed, asians are very much conservative. Latins are much more 'user-friendly' if we can say that...and in fact, IMHO men here treat ladies as they were nothing (my perception and that just bothers me)... the guys here just go out with other guys, the women are pretty much submissive and the guys talk to women as if they were other guys, and not softly. I am still not used to it...

latin men style put women in the skies, heaven or some sort of place *above* them. It is important to have a very very pleased woman, because this can tell A LOT about you for the society and your friends...and for other girls.

myself...I am breaking some of the barriers here at the office, for example. every morning I try to say something nice to the ladies here, sometimes I bring a flower to some of them, sometimes I learn a little verse from some pop romantic chinese song and I sing to them...little things, you know.

and they are very much open to me ritgh now. we talk a lot about many things, they show me their pictures, wedding album, their mp3s at their desks. I even now go out to lunch with them not more often than with the guys...:) anyway, I just LOVE the women behavior and presence. And you know what...they are changing too. I can tell.

Latin guys are 'machistas'? yes, we are! but differently from the 'local asian machismo' we always bring a rose in our mouth ;) and I do not need to enroll a downpayment of a brand new BMW or Mercedez for the next 10 years to get confident for that.

and I just have 1 month living here in singapore, but happy with so many friends I made so far.

Now..about the poem... you just place me in a very very difficult position :)

First, who am I to translate Drummond? I am just a poor mortal with a very modest vocabulary, specially in english.

I stopped for 30 minutes to translate the first phrase with help of some english translators friends and we could not find a good one.

Second, (according to professionals) would be a downgrade to translate a latin poem to a anglican or saxon or english language...there are just no words to express the same feeling and some of them even do not have a translation , like 'saudade', 'suspiro', 'dessedentado' and 'lampiro'.

I will try anyway...


You hit the nail on the head in your prescription of the Singapore style....

How much more enjoyment is in the infinite and overwhelming attention giving, compared to the downpayment of the BMW... :wink:

The ladies at your office are most certainly Brazilian waxed already... :lol:

I am eagerly waiting for the translations of those very Portuguese / Brazilian words indeed... :lol:

Eric

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Postby superedge » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 6:01 pm

Eric from the Netherlands wrote:
unlocal lass wrote:Is the poem called "appariation of love" ?


Not that I am aware of, but the portuguese title is 'No corpo feminino, esse retiro', which (this is cursing, I am translating Drummond...) could be read as something like "In the feminine body, this retiring", but that is far too literal.

Eric


I think the nearest translation would be 'the female's body, I nest'(??) (or a safe place where he can rest, or find pleasure/peace)

the main thing/problem here is: I do not know yet if 'esse retiro' is he talking about himself (predicative indirect object, in our grammar) or the body.

anyway...this can lead to another thread about poems and comparate languages :)

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Brazilian Wax Rule!

Postby superedge » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 6:12 pm

Eric from the Netherlands wrote:
superedge wrote:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:The ladies at your office are most certainly Brazilian waxed already... :lol:
Eric


HAHA!! Oh man!! I LOVE THAT !! :D

Save the brazilian wax!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:00 pm

local lass wrote:
Eric from the Netherlands wrote:
So bottomline are Singaporean women afraid of their own sexuality or passion inside?
If I do not misinterprete (please do tell me if I do), in a way you are saying that at the end of the day it has to be serious if the man in action wants to have fun. The latino sisters play the same game and I am actually pretty sure they also will want to give their heart to the right person at the end of the day.

But maybe they are less afraid of the experiences in between the flirtations and the wedding ceremony :wink:

I feel it is a different approach in sexuality and how to experience that part of life.

Eric


Afraid is perhaps not the right word Eric. Unused to playing this game is a better description. And when we face an experienced player, the odds are stacked against us. We Singaporeans are best known for being pragmatic. We know when to fold our cards when we have to ;)


Eric and local lass, your exchange really made me think... what is it i'm suspicious about with charming men and is the fear of heartbreak really preventing me and others like me from just enjoying the fun of flirting?

i guess if i didn't care for the guy very much then yes, it would be easy to just relax and enjoy the flirting. cos your heart's not involved. it's when you get past the flirting stage and both talk about a serious relationship... now if he says he is serious about you but you know he's a charmer... then you wonder if he says that to the hundred other girls he's also dating right now :wink: so it's a trust issue more than a passion thing.

i don't think singaporean women are afraid of our own sexuality or passion... i enjoy flirting and falling in love... very much :D it's the falling out of love that happens so often with these types of men that is the problem, as local lass pointed out.

anyway, eric you may like the saying below. actually i kinda like it too and am going to change my signature to this:

you gotta dance like nobody's watching
dream like you will live forever
live like you're going to die tomorrow
and love like it's never going to hurt

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Postby Guest » Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:08 am

I think any women from any country who has undergone bad experiences before will be afraid of getting hurt again and fold their cards before it happens, it's logical. But maybe local women are more cautious and serious in everything they do, such that every relationship is measured by its end result..i do that too sometimes..

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:51 am

beenhere10years wrote:YF,

If you're in the New Haven I'm thinking of, the only pick-up line you'd ever need is 'do you want to go to Pepe's for pizza?'

BH10Y and missing the calzones at Tony & lucille's a lot


Since I am in New Haven I never get to use a pick up line. Harvard has an old saying: "There is no tail at Yale." It is sad but true, yet a good reason to go back to Canada every summer and every xmas. 0% interaction with members of the opposite sex is, frankly, rather unhealthy I think. The American girls (at least here) are generally quite obese, but beyond the possibility of finding a physical attraction, the rare attractive ones I have met have all been quite neurotic or spoken for -- I guess you usually have to be to go to a place like this. Low supply/high demand. Bad economic situation for us guys here.

-Rob


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