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the whole trueth

What we are up against!!!

Postby the whole trueth » Thu, 28 Jul 2005 1:47 am

This is quite interesting to read, why Islam is what it is and why Jihad exsists. This is why Islam is a threat to the whole world, because there is only one trueth one religon in the eyes of Islam. all the other religons are enemies.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... fagih.html

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Postby YF » Thu, 28 Jul 2005 2:04 am

Isn't that the case with all judeo-religious (sp?) beliefs? This is why I think the world would often be a better place without religion. Yes, I know not all religions are dogmatic so I am generalizing here but religion does seem to be one more way to divide people rather than uniting them.

-Rob

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Postby asiandivergal » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 7:14 am

Rob...religion by itself is pure and innocent, unfortunately it has been twisted by fanatics who manipulate it for their own gains/motives/greed/believes in the name of God.

All religions are beautiful and wonderous in their origins, but the interpretations have been controlled by humans, based on their own value systems, background etc. Unfortunately humankind is so flawed - even if it's not religion, it wil be something else he/she will eventually destroy.

Whatever happened to LOVE and FORGIVENESS in the holy books of Islam & Christianity? The Islam extremists were wrong to kill - and worse, using their God's name...at the same time the Christians were also wrong to invade and kill the Muslims, using the pretext of defense. As long as it's killing/taking of another human's life, it is wrong - never mind how you try to justify it.

Any religion that divides rather than unites people - that's not the true religion. That takes the form of the devil. Don't forget that the devil walks among mankind and often takes the form of an angel :)

If there is no more religion in this world, it will be a very sad, bleak place with no love, no hope and no faith. Just material objects to keep humans going.

Enough of being such a preachy blabber! Cheers mate! :)

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Postby YF » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 7:51 am

Asiandivergirl: I disagree. I am an atheist and feel very complete -- love, hope, morality -- you don't need religion for that; these are *human* characteristics and that's why they transcend any particular religion and why we can see the rudements of morality even in the animal kingdom. In fact, because I believe my "soul" is not immortal--that this is the only chance I get--I may even appreciate life *more* and therefore I have to make the best of it, not only for me, but for my fellow human beings. God doesn't make or decide what is good, good exists indepently. The "Good" is the ends, not religion. Religion is only a means, and often, a very bad one at that.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 2:36 pm

YF wrote:Asiandivergirl: I disagree. I am an atheist and feel very complete -- love, hope, morality -- you don't need religion for that; these are *human* characteristics and that's why they transcend any particular religion and why we can see the rudements of morality even in the animal kingdom. In fact, because I believe my "soul" is not immortal--that this is the only chance I get--I may even appreciate life *more* and therefore I have to make the best of it, not only for me, but for my fellow human beings. God doesn't make or decide what is good, good exists indepently. The "Good" is the ends, not religion. Religion is only a means, and often, a very bad one at that.


Rob,

While I'll not go quite so far as yourself, I have been a practicing Agnostic since 1960 when I left the Presbyterian Church. I have studied most of the major religions and ways of life (ie., Buddhism, Hinduism, etc) and a few of the smaller evangelical christian groups. I could never find one that I was in 100% agreement with, therefore I have remained 100% true to my own beliefs. My own beliefs are probably more stringent than any average smoe who embraces a given religion. Like yourself, I am not a hypocrite who claims one thing and practices another in day to day life.

Religion, by it's very nature is manmade and therefore subject to the whims of mankind and the nature of interpretation (be they good or bad). Herein lies the major problem when all religions claim to the the right one. "We can drink and have our own breweries" 'If you drink alcohol you will suffer the fire and brimstone of hell" , etc, etc.

I live by one rule only....As you are from the US you will know this one. "The Golden Rule" I believe it is one of the first rules we learnt as kids. Here in singarich it is "He who has the gold makes the rules" but what I mean is "Do unto others as you would have them done to you." I try to treat all and sundry the way I would like to be treated. BUT.....If you then shoot at me you had better duck because I will shoot back with uncanny accuracy.

By the way, my wife is a devout catholic as are both of my children. I have no problem with that. I also wouldn't have a problem if they had been Muslim either. Any religion that, when followed "Properly", makes you a better person, in the eyes of the majority, is the religion that you should be. For that matter, it was what the catholic church made my wife that caused me to be attracted to her in the first place. Not because she was catholic.

I do agree that we only have the time that is here on this earth and what I do I do for my own satisfaction and not for the so-called rewards of an afterlife. We're given a maximum of four score & twenty and we should make the best of it.

sms

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 2:42 pm

Oh, and Asiandivergirl, is there any difference in the Jihads of today than the catholic church's crusades of the 1100's? Or for that matter the catholics & protetants in Ireland (I won't entertain any discussion here as I do know that is being overly simplistic and the problem is more than just that)

All major religions have killed in the name of religion at some time or another due to mis-interpretions or deliberate actions.

sms

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Postby ksl » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 3:51 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
YF wrote:Asiandivergirl: I disagree. I am an atheist and feel very complete -- love, hope, morality -- you don't need religion for that; these are *human* characteristics and that's why they transcend any particular religion and why we can see the rudements of morality even in the animal kingdom. In fact, because I believe my "soul" is not immortal--that this is the only chance I get--I may even appreciate life *more* and therefore I have to make the best of it, not only for me, but for my fellow human beings. God doesn't make or decide what is good, good exists indepently. The "Good" is the ends, not religion. Religion is only a means, and often, a very bad one at that.


Rob,

While I'll not go quite so far as yourself, I have been a practicing Agnostic since 1960 when I left the Presbyterian Church. I have studied most of the major religions and ways of life (ie., Buddhism, Hinduism, etc) and a few of the smaller evangelical christian groups. I could never find one that I was in 100% agreement with, therefore I have remained 100% true to my own beliefs. My own beliefs are probably more stringent than any average smoe who embraces a given religion. Like yourself, I am not a hypocrite who claims one thing and practices another in day to day life.

Religion, by it's very nature is manmade and therefore subject to the whims of mankind and the nature of interpretation (be they good or bad). Herein lies the major problem when all religions claim to the the right one. "We can drink and have our own breweries" 'If you drink alcohol you will suffer the fire and brimstone of hell" , etc, etc.

I live by one rule only....As you are from the US you will know this one. "The Golden Rule" I believe it is one of the first rules we learnt as kids. Here in singarich it is "He who has the gold makes the rules" but what I mean is "Do unto others as you would have them done to you." I try to treat all and sundry the way I would like to be treated. BUT.....If you then shoot at me you had better duck because I will shoot back with uncanny accuracy.

By the way, my wife is a devout catholic as are both of my children. I have no problem with that. I also wouldn't have a problem if they had been Muslim either. Any religion that, when followed "Properly", makes you a better person, in the eyes of the majority, is the religion that you should be. For that matter, it was what the catholic church made my wife that caused me to be attracted to her in the first place. Not because she was catholic.

I do agree that we only have the time that is here on this earth and what I do I do for my own satisfaction and not for the so-called rewards of an afterlife. We're given a maximum of four score & twenty and we should make the best of it.

sms
I agree!

I am actually born a catholic and I recall my grandparents being quite fanatical of the catholic religion. I do not practice or take sides on religion, even though I have quite a knowlegde of many religions, I have no wish to be preached to.

I wouldn't say i do not believe in a god, due to the fact, that I had been very ill for a number of years, I prayed to myself nightly, that I would pull through, it was a very long journey and struggle, I was afraid! and didn't wish to die, to many thing in my life were left unfinished.

I was reading the bible looking for answers, and asking why I should suffer the torment. Suicide thoughts were a daily occurance, along with sever depression.

Nothing could be done medically to cure my problem. My inner strength and personal fitness seems to have won over the illness for the time being and Strangely enough, I believe that god is within me, I do not need to go to any church, to prove my faith in myself.

The only thing that matters in life, is doing the right things! Last night I so the program on africa, starving children, which brought tears to my eyes, and i thought what a shocking world we live in. is this really hell? I guess many think so.

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Postby whatalark » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 4:24 pm

Oi, don't know if I want to get into this on a secular Forums board but, anyway, let me say this:

Religion smacks of an impersonal set of dogmatic beliefs and dead structure. BUT it is meant to be nothing more than the skeleton upon which is hung a living faith and RELATIONSHIP to a vital, living and more-than-relevant God. Lots of people throw out God and retain the dead structure because it's more comfortable to do things by rote, tradition and routine than relate to a huge living Being that has personality and likes and dislikes and wants a relationship with us. And since the Christian God actually says that He loves us, that makes everything a lot more uncomfortable and threatening.

To me, at least, it is uncomfortable and threatening because I instinctively feel that, to be loved by one's Maker puts some kind of value on me. What if I don't want to live up to His love?? What if I want to be selfish? That is more what 'religion' is about to me. Not the divisions that are between people but, the division between one's God and one's self.
no trees were hurt in the making of this post but a few electrons were terribly inconvenienced

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Postby cinder » Sun, 31 Jul 2005 5:49 pm

I believe religions are man made. They give strenghts and peace to their believers just because of human nature as social creature - feel at ease and stronger when they are parts of a group. The soothing feeling of doing things regularly is another factor to add.

As for God, I do believe there is something grand and out of me reach. It gives me brain and heart to justify what are 'good' and 'bad' - and gives me this precious life for me to make the best of it. I dont have to stick to any rules made by the same humble human being in order to know me God, nor I have to prove things to it.

Back to the original subject posted by OP, I couldnt agree more with SMS.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:... is there any difference in the Jihads of today than the catholic church's crusades of the 1100's? Or for that matter the catholics & protetants in Ireland...
All major religions have killed in the name of religion at some time or another due to mis-interpretions or deliberate actions...

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:23 am

[quote="whatalark"]Religion smacks of an impersonal set of dogmatic beliefs and dead structure. BUT it is meant to be nothing more than the skeleton upon which is hung a living faith and RELATIONSHIP to a vital, living and more-than-relevant God. Lots of people throw out God and retain the dead structure because it's more comfortable to do things by rote, tradition and routine than relate to a huge living Being that has personality and likes and dislikes and wants a relationship with us. And since the Christian God actually says that He loves us, that makes everything a lot more uncomfortable and threatening. quote]

You've hit the nail on the head, imho. This of course is a can of worms but I have always found it hard to remain silent on matters of religion because it is very close to my heart.

Religion is an attempt to discover and live the Truth, which exists whether you like it or not. You could leap from a tall building screaming "I don't believe in gravity" until you hit the ground, but hit the ground you will.

The problem a lot of people have with religion is that a great divide sometimes appears between religion and true spirituality. Some religious people go through the motions with no real spirituality, and others who are spiritual don't practise any specific religion.

Yet religion is as necessary as science. In an ideal world we would not need science cos we would know everything about how the world worked. In the same way we would not need religion cos we would see God face to face and the search for Him would be over.

I'm Catholic and accept that atrocities have been committed by my church in the name of God in the past, yet infinite good has also been done by missionaries, clergy, and laity. Remove religion from our world, and just imagine what kind of world it would be? What would be our reason for living? Without that conscious search for meaning, would we not be just like the flora and fauna around us?

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:24 am

[quote="whatalark"]Religion smacks of an impersonal set of dogmatic beliefs and dead structure. BUT it is meant to be nothing more than the skeleton upon which is hung a living faith and RELATIONSHIP to a vital, living and more-than-relevant God. Lots of people throw out God and retain the dead structure because it's more comfortable to do things by rote, tradition and routine than relate to a huge living Being that has personality and likes and dislikes and wants a relationship with us. And since the Christian God actually says that He loves us, that makes everything a lot more uncomfortable and threatening. quote]

You've hit the nail on the head, imho. This of course is a can of worms but I have always found it hard to remain silent on matters of religion because it is very close to my heart.

Religion is an attempt to discover and live the Truth, which exists whether you like it or not. You could leap from a tall building screaming "I don't believe in gravity" until you hit the ground, but hit the ground you will.

The problem a lot of people have with religion is that a great divide sometimes appears between religion and true spirituality. Some religious people go through the motions with no real spirituality, and others who are spiritual don't practise any specific religion.

Yet religion is as necessary as science. In an ideal world we would not need science cos we would know everything about how the world worked. In the same way we would not need religion cos we would see God face to face and the search for Him would be over.

I'm Catholic and accept that atrocities have been committed by my church in the name of God in the past, yet infinite good has also been done by missionaries, clergy, and laity. Remove religion from our world, and just imagine what kind of world it would be? What would be our reason for living? Without that conscious search for meaning, would we not be just like the flora and fauna around us?

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Postby Humility » Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:52 am

Wow!!!! Lots of disenchanted people on this thread I can see. Now let me see if I can add more to their present disenchantment. On the other hand it is better to stay away from this thread altogether, because they simply have no clue what the bloody hell they are talking about. One day they will have to face their maker and I aint sure how they will greet him. With an ignorant heart or with a heart that is alive, beating and full of love for everyone. By *everyone* I definitely mean everyone including not only their *neighbors* but also their *enenmies*.

Remember what Jesus said, about loving your enemies also??

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Postby YF » Mon, 01 Aug 2005 2:44 am

Is this the kind of love you are talking about? I think I'll pass thank you and take my chances with the rest of the heathens.

“When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the LORD your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourselves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. But [my italics] in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes…”

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Postby Eckadimmock » Mon, 01 Aug 2005 8:43 am

I don't blame religion for the world's woes, because as far as I can see all wars are basically caused by economics: competition for control of resources and society. Every society will justify its misdeeds in terms of whatever language its moral framework uses, hence the religious connection.

If the problem were specifically religious, we would expect secular or avowedly Atheist regimes to be more peaceful, but that certainly hasn't been the case in the past century or so.

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Re: religion and economics

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 01 Aug 2005 9:38 am

Eckadimmock wrote:I don't blame religion for the world's woes, because as far as I can see all wars are basically caused by economics: competition for control of resources and society. Every society will justify its misdeeds in terms of whatever language its moral framework uses, hence the religious connection.

If the problem were specifically religious, we would expect secular or avowedly Atheist regimes to be more peaceful, but that certainly hasn't been the case in the past century or so.


I am curious Eckadimmock, specifically which regimes were avowedly Atheist? That have been warlike that is. Russia? Cuba?, What war did they start? We might not like their methods of running their countries or treating their people but what countries did they wage war upon (not talking about defending themselves but aggression itself). The "Cold War" doesn't count.


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