Charges for Recruitment Agency

[Rian]

well, you could try kelly services.. been there.. done that.. and the jobs they assigned you to is much better than other agencies.. i guess..

[riversandlakes]

Kelly's cool. Got a few calls from them, though through it all they were always one step behind - tried to reach me after I just moved (hence satisfied where I was)...

[sundaymorningstaple]

But sms, it's fire or be fired world we live in now...loyalty is worth squat, or at least it's just worth an Utopian dream.

R&L, I hear you loud and clear, however, when an agency gets burned when they only have a 1 or 3 month guarantee is rediculous. As the HR & Finance Manager of my current company (staff around 150) if a job seeker has more than 3 jobs in the last 5 years, I don't even bother to read the CV.

Why you might ask? Well, a couple of reasons. One as you pointed out, loyalty isn't worth squat, but on the other hand, I'm not going to spend money training and developing you for the competition am I. Two, it takes time to get a new employee up to speed. Three, unfortunately, too many here haven't a clue about the company they are applying for. Either what the company does, where it's heading, it's growth, or for that matter anything else. Only, How much can pay. After getting this kind of potential employee or job seeker who has no scruples either, then the agency has to protect itself, otherwise, they also lose their consultants don't they?

When I see job seekers with things like "left for change of environment, or better prospects (and take another job paying the same salary over and over or going to work for another small SME) this tells me it's not the environment, it's the job seeker. Hell, you can't even know a company's environment during the first 3 months of employment. Not counting the fact that you probably aren't even proficient in your position either unless you were brought in on contract to set up a position. (short term anyway).

[riversandlakes]

I totally understand your viewpoint, hence I believe we can come to a common ground between management (you) and potatolet (me hehe)...

As in all situations, there are exceptions to the norm. You just mentioned it, didn't you? You won't read that hopper CV because you derive pretty accurate deductions from the job seeker's mindset - hopping from one small SME to the next and getting the same pay over and over like the energizer bunny...
But what if a job seeker is not like that? Will that clear him of the "sin" of hopping in your eyes?

Imho, because of the non-stop bombardment of retrenchment all around the world by CEOs (Delphi, Pioneer, Kodak to name a few) as the cheapest and easiest way out (of course, prelaced beforehand with crocodile tears of "pain" in front of the press) of a stagnant business, I've made my resolve to not be loyal to anyone but myself - and to those who are first loyal to me.

Not only the news, but I've also seen one 12-year-old guy in the next cube given the pink slip unceremoniously - when I was 4 months into the firm doing another job. Just like that and the senior management still gets to keep their reserved parking and the CEO (the son of an important Tan Sri in a huge conglomerate) still stays in the office during office hours EVERY DAY. Aren't they supposed to be out there getting more business for us?
Or the CFO conducted an "urgent" staff meeting to announce that he wants EVERYONE (yes, including techies) to do marketing. In his exact words and "vision", "to sell ice to Eskimos".
If I was there, AND I was about to leave the firm, I would have stood up and blasted, "With all due respect sir, if I could sell ice to Eskimos then I'll run the biggest business on this planet and you'll be working for me - as a janitor." It's obviously an attempt to smother his team's (hence his) failure in marketing our products hence the bleeding red ink!
Delphi's management gave themselves fat bonuses in view of bankcruptcy "to ensure they themselves do NOT leave?!" Even independent financial analysts called it "disgusting".

These kinds of things do not create loyalty amongst the potatolets - the smart ones that is. I do not apologize for taking a whack at those employees who are loyal for no reason at all - other than own business or truly trusted someone up there taking care of them. Most of us starting from scratch or the first generation genuinely out of poverty in a 3rd-world country do not have those luxury.
Otherwise it's akin to shooting oneself in the foot.

Our common ground? It's senseless and a waste of youth to move from one small SME to the next on the SAME pay
I justify my every single movement on wanting to work in a bigger environment - from a mom-and-pop to a 10-person firm to an Oracle Certified Partner to a US-based firm to a Fortune 500 and now a Fortune 300 - of course, while being paid what I'm worth - not a cent more, not a cent less...

But sms, it's fire or be fired world we live in now...loyalty is worth squat, or at least it's just worth an Utopian dream.

R&L, I hear you loud and clear, however, when an agency gets burned when they only have a 1 or 3 month guarantee is rediculous. As the HR & Finance Manager of my current company (staff around 150) if a job seeker has more than 3 jobs in the last 5 years, I don't even bother to read the CV.

Why you might ask? Well, a couple of reasons. One as you pointed out, loyalty isn't worth squat, but on the other hand, I'm not going to spend money training and developing you for the competition am I. Two, it takes time to get a new employee up to speed. Three, unfortunately, too many here haven't a clue about the company they are applying for. Either what the company does, where it's heading, it's growth, or for that matter anything else. Only, How much can pay. After getting this kind of potential employee or job seeker who has no scruples either, then the agency has to protect itself, otherwise, they also lose their consultants don't they?

When I see job seekers with things like "left for change of environment, or better prospects (and take another job paying the same salary over and over or going to work for another small SME) this tells me it's not the environment, it's the job seeker. Hell, you can't even know a company's environment during the first 3 months of employment. Not counting the fact that you probably aren't even proficient in your position either unless you were brought in on contract to set up a position. (short term anyway).

[sundaymorningstaple]

As in all situations, there are exceptions to the norm. You just mentioned it, didn't you? You won't read that hopper CV because you derive pretty accurate deductions from the job seeker's mindset - hopping from one small SME to the next and getting the same pay over and over like the energizer bunny...
But what if a job seeker is not like that? Will that clear him of the "sin" of hopping in your eyes?

That's why we scan a CV initially, to look for those who aren't "sinners". Takes me less than a minutes to scan a 6 page CV. If the reasons for leaving are all similar as stated previously, bye. If his/her salary hasn't changed measureably, bye. Obviously, if a job seeker shows a clear progression of increased responsiblity and commensurate packages, and a clear rise in type/size of employer then I'm definately interested provided which he is not looking for the moon and stars. If he is looking for a suitable increase that is inline with what our company can handle I'm on the phone asap.

Unfortunately, occasionally a gem will fall through the netting though. It's sad when that happens. However, I have had a couple of those pester the hell out of me until I gave them a second look. In a couple cases, was glad I did. So, persistence tenaciousness is also a good quality to have in my book.

When you go looking for a new job, do you target the industry or the company?

sms

[riversandlakes]

Hmm, I'm industry-blind. Each industry has its own rules (ways of doing things) and I don't think any industry is more superior to another in any sense?

Hence it's always been the company I'm looking at. Specifically it's database environment (since I'm an Oracle DBA). I want to see how things are done in a bigger and bigger scale. In my previous job they thought a 100GB database is HUGE and 150 of them is a lot. Now I see 1TB databases and thousands of them hidden somewhere in Boulder, Colorado.
Hopefully I'll one day get see an off-scale environment hehe Only been reading that it's located somewhere in the safe Arizona desert

I take pay for granted. It's #2. How am I to serve the environment and subsequently its users if I make a vagrant's pay? Though an increase is important. Unless #1 somehow overrules #2.

If the potential experience is SO great, I won't hesitate to take a HUGE paycut - okay up to 50%. I still can't live on a pittance EVEN if it was to work on Mars administering databases there 8)

But I guess only a single bachelor has this luxury

[riversandlakes]

This caught my eye, sms. You've actually seen packages written alongside each previous job?

Is that standard practise here? I say it's a LOST negotiation card

"If you find my CV and cover letter intriguing, please call me to find out more about me..."

As in all situations, there are exceptions to the norm. You just mentioned it, didn't you? You won't read that hopper CV because you derive pretty accurate deductions from the job seeker's mindset - hopping from one small SME to the next and getting the same pay over and over like the energizer bunny...
But what if a job seeker is not like that? Will that clear him of the "sin" of hopping in your eyes?

If the reasons for leaving are all similar as stated previously, bye. If his/her salary hasn't changed measureably, bye. Obviously, if a job seeker shows a clear progression of increased responsiblity and commensurate packages, and a clear rise in type/size of employer then I'm definately interested provided which he is not looking for the moon and stars. If he is looking for a suitable increase that is inline with what our company can handle I'm on the phone asap.

[sundaymorningstaple]

All depends. If I'm looking at Singaporean's CV's, Yes. Primarily because they are brought up to follow the status quo. For the majority of non-asia applicants, No. I agree, one should never put your previous salary package in your CV. The question will come up soon enough and you don't want to blow yourself out of the saddle before you even get a foot in the stirrup. That said, when you work for a Singapore Firm (not an mnc), Hell, MNC's located here, if there HR is run by a local odds are unless your CV is exactly what is required the odds are you won't get a ring up. It's stupid, I grant you, but local HR practitioners are a somewhat backwards lot here. Ask any expat on this board if you don't believe me.

Do I want to see your CV. No. But that's only becaue I don't handle IT personnel. I only handle Engineering (Hard Sciences) in specific core industries.

That's not to say I don't have a very basic understanding of IT. I got my MCSA about 18 months ago just for the hell of it and to see if I could do it at 56! No probs. (Speaking of Oracle, I am currently investigating the possibility of going to Netsuite for current employer. As a Oracle based package designed for asp subscription with ample customization seem like a good deal. (Once the have the localized payroll software module up and running (about March according to them).

[riversandlakes]

Thanks for telling, sms. Now I'll never put in "Current Salary" when asked for in the ad - ever. A passport photo is fine though
In order to keep that card still up my sleeve - and to make whoever to call me up for an interview in order to find out how much my price tag is.

At which time it's also the golden chance to put in on how much homework I have done on the firm - the Internet is amazing - and how I can contribute. And to put forth what I wanted to know about the firm but couldn't seem to find on the Net...
I've found that most interviewers didn't read the CVs before-hand. Too busy I gather. So mostly I'll be repeating from the CV. If they've read, then they would have spent time interrogating me on the CV's items instead...
All-in-all, it seems the bigger the firm, the better the interview sessions are! Gruelling but worth every second of it...

I wasn't pitching my CV, sms The quote was just about my principle above. Gonna hold in here till PR, and then some. Will be busy with MBA and some Linux and security credentials...

Well, when all is done, it's their loss for wanting a cookie-cutter of the requirement. But usually that's done by HR personnel who lack understanding on what the position is really about, no?
On the same note, when a CEO decides to hire techies himself, I've seen it backfire. He hired over-qualified people for the helpdesk job (Level 1) - people with 3-4 years of experience doing Level 3 jobs. It was a major disaster. Frustrations abound. Luckily I was in another department...
Yes, it was USD he used and hence he could afford what is considered logically loco otherwise.
But still, I guess it all boils down to getting the right fit - can't get an XXL coat for me even if I wanted it, eh?

[veryveryrich]

Anyway, job is still a job... a job with a company means employee would go at anytime he/she wishes. Employers sometimes have to question themselves...

1) Are they really providing opportunities?
2) Do they really have room for growth and development for employees?
3) Do they realize that they themselves do not put in effort in making employees 'loyal' to them?
4) Or they are looking for some 'Machines that understand Human Language while AI-robots aren't available widely in the industry yet'...?

What's the problem then?

1) Salary?
2) Some seniors in that particular company (aged probably above 35 or something) trying to 'stop' ppl/talents to take over their position in the company?
3) Simply treating each ppl their hire as machines, OT with no questions asked?
4) Blah blah blah, I pay, you listen and work?

In addition, IT line is indeed a 'grasshopper' market coz the Career-path is simply unclear especially for starters. By saying "having more than 3 jobs in 5 years time" viewing on an IT CV is definitely a wrong kinda evaluation, since ppl nowadays 'promote' 6 months contract job! Imagine would have to take such offers inevitably to survive on one's own, it will be more than 10 jobs in 5 years time! Any problem with that? Talking about the [Job Requirements] some companies have on IT ppl, it ranges from MS products to J2EE to Oracle to HPUX to UNIX to Solaris to Matlab to Macintosh. Software from C++ to Unix Shell Scripts to IBM Websphere to .NET to JSP to Scripting to COM+, etc. One employer expecting IT ppl to have ALL THESE with 5 years experience YET unable to accept their 'diversity' of work within the past 5 years? Hmm...

Rights or wrongs come from both parties. Whether a candidate would choose to stay with a company or not depends on both sides. Employer shouldn't complain about people moving around jobs coz they simply could not offer the total package and clear / equal opportunity career path to candidates. Think about REAL Japanese/Korean Giants over their countries. Right from the time a Degree Holder chooses to join them, they educate, redevelop, providing unrivalled opportunites not limited to Korea/Japan but also to oversea countries, continuous development, good remuneration packages and surprisingly good increment over the years they are working, is HOW they keep their employees 'married' to them for at least 5 ~ 10 years (Some even work for the-one-and-only company after retirement...). You know what? Some of them even encourage 'Family Style' Lunch Hour (ehem, 2 hours in exact) to share their lives and experiences together with managers/peers/etc. (We have to rush for Lunch, or even have some unnecessary MEETINGS during lunch hour) We, unfortunately, do not have SUCH offers over in SG. We pay our OT, travel, lunch/tea, etc., and therefore, it resulted some 'Grasshopper' style market over this region for the commonly stated "Reasons for leaving: Seeking Better Prospects and Career Advancement..."

[sundaymorningstaple]

By saying "having more than 3 jobs in 5 years time" viewing on an IT CV is definitely a wrong kinda evaluation, since ppl nowadays 'promote' 6 months contract job! Imagine would have to take such offers inevitably to survive on one's own, it will be more than 10 jobs in 5 years time! Any problem with that?

Grasshopper, you should slow down when you try to speed read, otherwise you make yourself look rather foolish. I believe I indicated

When I see job seekers with things like "left for change of environment, or better prospects (and take another job paying the same salary over and over or going to work for another small SME) this tells me it's not the environment, it's the job seeker. Hell, you can't even know a company's environment during the first 3 months of employment. Not counting the fact that you probably aren't even proficient in your position either unless you were brought in on contract to set up a position. (short term anyway).

When one spends a large portion of their time reading CV's one is rather adept at picking up that kind of data. It takes a lot less time to extract the relevant bits & keywords than it did to assemble the data.

[riversandlakes]

How did you know it was disguising to be rich?

Grasshopper,

[riversandlakes]

Grasshopper, your belief below has been outdated since mid-1970s, and totally wrong today. Of course, I don't know about "lifetime employment" in the private sector for non-Japanese employees. Do you?

Kore and Japan?

1974 Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Corporation laid off 10,000 workers due to the first oil crisis.
1989 Following Japanese judicial precedence, the Supreme Court of Korea responded to the pleas of management and for the first time legitimized the mass layoffs of Korean workers.
1997 Upon acceptance of it US$58b bail-out package, the IMF forces Korean legislators to give freedom for companies to hire and fire.
1998 Hyundai Motor Co fired more than 1,500 workers in Ulsan
1998 http://tinyurl.com/d9r84 "The unions have agreed to the scrapping of the system of lifelong employment defended by South Korean workers for decades and opened the door to the widespread use of contract labor."
1999 Top 5 Korean chaebols had a hell of a time firing almost 150,000 workers
2001 Toshiba announces jobcuts of 18,800
2002 Fujitsu lays off 7,000 - 5,400 in Japan in addition to 22,000 worldwide beforehand
2002 Hitachi lays off 10,200 in Japan
2003 Aiwa (50.6% owned by Sony) laid of 50%
2005 Sanyo Electric lays off 14,400

These facts are enough to tell me nothing is guaranteed. The "Lunch Hour" is just another lunch. Don't read too much into it, for when it has to fire, the management will.

Think about REAL Japanese/Korean Giants over their countries. Right from the time a Degree Holder chooses to join them, they educate, redevelop, providing unrivalled opportunites not limited to Korea/Japan but also to oversea countries, continuous development, good remuneration packages and surprisingly good increment over the years they are working, is HOW they keep their employees 'married' to them for at least 5 ~ 10 years (Some even work for the-one-and-only company after retirement...). You know what? Some of them even encourage 'Family Style' Lunch Hour (ehem, 2 hours in exact) to share their lives and experiences together with managers/peers/etc.

[veryveryrich]

Well, then should I say that we are ALL outdated... NON-GRASSHOPPERS? (Well, I'm not...) Why are you still obey to your boss while still spitting their ASSES during lunch time?

Why are human still imagining STAR WARS ERA but there aren't any spaceships flying around in the SKY?

Is BTTF screened by Steven Spielberg "TOO EARLY" to mentioned HILL VALLEY in 2015 has 'Flying Cars' but yet we get TOYOTA CORONA changed model almost every 1~2 years but STILL using the damn old technology invented in early last century?

Hmm... yes, guess we are all outdated. Our mind is 'futuristic', our body is 'present' and our reproduction method is 'outdated'...

[veryveryrich]

Gimme something NEW! 8)