Singapore PR vs Canada PR, which one is better for the long term?

[ivicts]

https://www.straitstimes.com/life/singa ... tic-cities
Btw, Singapore ranks No. 3 in a new list of top 10 magnetic cities where newcomers and residents feel they are most likely to stay. Vancouver ranks 9th, which is surprising because many Canadians seem to be complaining everywhere.

But, I feel that SG offers convenient and low taxes, which is the golden handcuff. Almost everywhere you want to move in the world, you will likely have a lower take-home pay and less convenience compared to Singapore. That makes moving country harder..

[ivicts]

Do you mean for retirement?

Btw, what if I buy the cheapest HDB resale just to keep my PR and move abroad for work? Would this work? Or is it possible that I have an HDB here, but the govt still doesn't renew my REP while I am outside Singapore?

Your problem is not your residence, your problem is failure to pay income tax and CPF in Singapore. If you are working abroad for more than 183 days, that means that you are tax resident abroad and will pay income tax in your country of residence. The exception is if you are seconded by a Singapore company to another country but are still employed by the Singapore company... example, Dell Singapore sends you to KL for a year... you pay Malaysian income tax but still work for the Singapore entity.

Unless you are a masochist and want to pay tax twice, you will not be paying into Singapore income tax or CPF. This is a definite red flag that could cause your REP to not be renewed, just so the gahmen knows your are working in Singapore... or NOT.

What if I top up my CPF from abroad? And rented my HDB to pay the income tax? Of course, all of these all hypothetical, I don't think I would go through such a hassle if I don't foresee a future in SG.. Too much trouble.. What happens to the HDB if my PR is not renewed? Will the govt force me to sell it?

[Strong Eagle]

What if I top up my CPF from abroad? And rented my HDB to pay the income tax? Of course, all of these all hypothetical, I don't think I would go through such a hassle if I don't foresee a future in SG.. Too much trouble.. What happens to the HDB if my PR is not renewed? Will the govt force me to sell it?

Without getting into all the ins and outs of property rental: If you rent out your HDB flat as non owner occupied at $4,000 per month, you'll pay about $7,000 per year in property taxes in addition to the income taxes paid on the rent you receive.

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/property- ... tes#title3

As for topping up CPF, you still have the income reporting problem, even when reporting rent... you otherwise have no job... a red flag.

I speak anecdotally from 20 years worth of experience on this board: What you are trying to do is exactly what the Singapore gahmen doesn't want people to do... obtain PR and then not really be a resident. And the gahmen is getting much better at ferreting out these folks.

Over the years there have been a bunch of people posting on this forum, primarily Indians, whose sole purpose, it seems, in obtaining PR, is to use PR as a stepping stone to Canadian or Australian PR. So may posts here with titles like, "I've got PR and want to work in India," or "I've got PR but want to birth my child in XXX," or "I lost my job - can I keep PR and work overseas"... the list is endless.

My point is that what you are trying to do is nothing new, the gahmen is well aware of the "problem", and they really don't want PR's of this nature... why grant you residency when you're not resident?

There have also been posts, many more recently, from people whose REP has been denied or only extended for a year. It seems pretty clear to me that the ICA has hooked up with IRAS, MoM, and probably a host of other government agencies, to track what is happening with their PR's.

The stated intent of PR is a stepping stone to eventual citizenship... with the attraction of "foreign talent" becoming less of a priority. I'm part of the problem... I kept PR for 6 years with a second 5 year renewal but gave it all up to return to the states.

My conclusion: You are going down a perilous road with no guarantees that the rug won't be pulled out from under you.

[NYY1]

What if I top up my CPF from abroad? And rented my HDB to pay the income tax? Of course, all of these all hypothetical, I don't think I would go through such a hassle if I don't foresee a future in SG.. Too much trouble.. What happens to the HDB if my PR is not renewed? Will the govt force me to sell it?

As a PR, you can't rent out your HDB.

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/rent ... ligibility

In the near/intermediate term, it's unlikely you'll be able to perpetually extend your REP if you are not living in Singapore (if you work here for 20+ years, it may be a different story). Hence, your options are likely a) apply for SG PR, keep your Canada PR alive, and make a decision later or b) go give Canada a try.

The US has more opportunity, both in absolute number and the upside if you are talented. Both Singapore and Canada can get you (or the next generation) to the US. I don't know which is easier and it probably depends on the individual (at the extremes, it doesn't matter). IMO, there is a big difference between the US coastal hubs and the 2nd/3rd tier cities; COL, the opportunity set, and lifestyle/social/cultural aspects are all different, so it depends on what you do and what you are looking for.

[ivicts]

What if I top up my CPF from abroad? And rented my HDB to pay the income tax? Of course, all of these all hypothetical, I don't think I would go through such a hassle if I don't foresee a future in SG.. Too much trouble.. What happens to the HDB if my PR is not renewed? Will the govt force me to sell it?

Without getting into all the ins and outs of property rental: If you rent out your HDB flat as non owner occupied at $4,000 per month, you'll pay about $7,000 per year in property taxes in addition to the income taxes paid on the rent you receive.

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/property- ... tes#title3

As for topping up CPF, you still have the income reporting problem, even when reporting rent... you otherwise have no job... a red flag.

I speak anecdotally from 20 years worth of experience on this board: What you are trying to do is exactly what the Singapore gahmen doesn't want people to do... obtain PR and then not really be a resident. And the gahmen is getting much better at ferreting out these folks.

Over the years there have been a bunch of people posting on this forum, primarily Indians, whose sole purpose, it seems, in obtaining PR, is to use PR as a stepping stone to Canadian or Australian PR. So may posts here with titles like, "I've got PR and want to work in India," or "I've got PR but want to birth my child in XXX," or "I lost my job - can I keep PR and work overseas"... the list is endless.

My point is that what you are trying to do is nothing new, the gahmen is well aware of the "problem", and they really don't want PR's of this nature... why grant you residency when you're not resident?

There have also been posts, many more recently, from people whose REP has been denied or only extended for a year. It seems pretty clear to me that the ICA has hooked up with IRAS, MoM, and probably a host of other government agencies, to track what is happening with their PR's.

The stated intent of PR is a stepping stone to eventual citizenship... with the attraction of "foreign talent" becoming less of a priority. I'm part of the problem... I kept PR for 6 years with a second 5 year renewal but gave it all up to return to the states.

My conclusion: You are going down a perilous road with no guarantees that the rug won't be pulled out from under you.

Actually, my dilemma right now is what if I move to Canada, and in the end, I feel that Singapore is better? So I am considering whether to apply for SG PR to hedge against that bet. I am thinking of two scenarios:
1. Apply for SG PR now and probably cannot get it renewed because I am in Canada.
2. Don't apply for SG PR now, go to Canada. If I want to go back to SG and settle down, I can go back via EP and get SG PR.

I am wondering if I go to the second route, I will have a better chance for PR since it is my "first time" to apply for PR. I am afraid that on the first route, if I am not able to renew it because I am in Canada. I heard it's gonna be really difficult to get SG PR again after not being able to renew it because the government values loyalty. However, some of my friends said that, as long as I don't voluntarily renounce myself, being unable to renew my PR might not have that much impact on the new PR application. The problem is that if I voluntarily renounced my PR and then it's impossible to be approved for a new PR application. What do you guys think about this? Will not being able to renew SG PR while overseas have an impact on further PR applications? Should I go via 1) or 2)?

[Max Headroom]

What do I think? I think you're trying pretty hard to game the system. From where I'm standing, it looks like you're willing to contribute the bare minimum to Singapore that warrants your PR, preferably less. Not exactly a winning proposition for Singapore, innit?

Can't have your cake and eat your cake bro.

If you're so keen on Singapore, why not get MM2H and stay in JB. In a couple of years' time, living in JB will be like you're in Singapore anyway. And with RTS, you'll be in and out in minutes.

IOW, you'll be able to focus on your Canada PR full-on, whilst hanging in JB and Singapore, with, in time, possible options for a real shot at Singapore PR, one that benefits both.

[malcontent]

I would want to go to the US as well! How does living in the US compare to living in SG? I feel that the US offers more opportunities compared to SG, while SG offers convenience. Actually one of the benefits of moving to canada is its proximity to the US.

I actually find life to be more convenient in the U.S. compared to SG. Last week I did an oil change on my car… it was a drive thru, you drive into the garage and under the car will be a mechanics pit, you just stay in your car, and they do everything in 10 minutes, then you drive away. Another one is free parking at most places, whereas Singapore you have to pay and pay. Places like Walmart you have almost everything under one roof, so if you need glasses, food & drinks, medication, socks and underwear, hardware, electronics, a bicycle, fishing pole, camping gear, whatever… it’s practically a one-stop shop. Online convince is also fantastic, and far more reliable — pretty much no fake goods, unlike Lazada and Shopee, and a rich set of reviews to ensure you get what you pay for. Yes, eating out is more expensive and less convenient, but eating in is cheaper and more convenient. In some cases you need to be smart about how you do things in the U.S., to avoid being ripped off. The longer you stay, the smarter you will get, and you can then keep your costs very reasonable. Costco membership (wholesale club) is well worth the small annual fee, when buying in bulk the savings is huge, far less than Singapore for most things, or at worst, the same price. They sell cheaper gas, and even have a cheap ‘n good car wash that I used the other day, about half the price of competitors, and a better wash too. I’m trying to think of a single convenience that I miss from Singapore and can’t think of any. What kind of conveniences are you thinking of?

[MOCHS]

I’m trying to think of a single convenience that I miss from Singapore and can’t think of any.

Distance. If you don’t wanna do online shopping, you still have to drive a distance to get to your shops to get your conveniences unless you live in a small town. If you’re like my in-laws who live in the rural area away from town, the nearest town is 20 mins drive away. Still a short drive to them though. In SG you go downstairs and you got practically everything you need within a 10 min walk.

If you have a food craving at night, lots of supper spots in SG. In the US, the food places are already closed for the day if you don’t wanna whip something up at home.

Lack of public transport outside of the major cities. No driving license in the US and you’re pretty much at a disadvantage. Lots of freight rails but passenger rails, not as much.

[ivicts]

What do I think? I think you're trying pretty hard to game the system. From where I'm standing, it looks like you're willing to contribute the bare minimum to Singapore that warrants your PR, preferably less. Not exactly a winning proposition for Singapore, innit?

Can't have your cake and eat your cake bro.

If you're so keen on Singapore, why not get MM2H and stay in JB. In a couple of years' time, living in JB will be like you're in Singapore anyway. And with RTS, you'll be in and out in minutes.

IOW, you'll be able to focus on your Canada PR full-on, whilst hanging in JB and Singapore, with, in time, possible options for a real shot at Singapore PR, one that benefits both.

Tbh, the one keeping SG PR while in Canada is hypothetical, I probably won't do it because it's gonna be such a hassle. But staying in JB may not grant me the authority to legally work in SG like SG PR does. I need SG salary lol.

Also, for having a cake and eating it too, SG PR is more restrictive than other countries' PR. Usually PR only has residency requirement and you can be a PR even when unemployed.

My actual big questions are:
1. Apply for SG PR now and probably cannot get it renewed because I am in Canada.
2. Don't apply for SG PR now, go to Canada. If I want to go back to SG and settle down, I can go back via EP and get SG PR.

Seems like if I stay in Canada while trying to get Canadian citizenship like 1) it will be difficult, as most commenters in this thread have brought up. So, I wonder whether I should apply for SG PR in the first place and go through that hassle.

[ivicts]

I would want to go to the US as well! How does living in the US compare to living in SG? I feel that the US offers more opportunities compared to SG, while SG offers convenience. Actually one of the benefits of moving to canada is its proximity to the US.

I actually find life to be more convenient in the U.S. compared to SG. Last week I did an oil change on my car… it was a drive thru, you drive into the garage and under the car will be a mechanics pit, you just stay in your car, and they do everything in 10 minutes, then you drive away. Another one is free parking at most places, whereas Singapore you have to pay and pay. Places like Walmart you have almost everything under one roof, so if you need glasses, food & drinks, medication, socks and underwear, hardware, electronics, a bicycle, fishing pole, camping gear, whatever… it’s practically a one-stop shop. Online convince is also fantastic, and far more reliable — pretty much no fake goods, unlike Lazada and Shopee, and a rich set of reviews to ensure you get what you pay for. Yes, eating out is more expensive and less convenient, but eating in is cheaper and more convenient. In some cases you need to be smart about how you do things in the U.S., to avoid being ripped off. The longer you stay, the smarter you will get, and you can then keep your costs very reasonable. Costco membership (wholesale club) is well worth the small annual fee, when buying in bulk the savings is huge, far less than Singapore for most things, or at worst, the same price. They sell cheaper gas, and even have a cheap ‘n good car wash that I used the other day, about half the price of competitors, and a better wash too. I’m trying to think of a single convenience that I miss from Singapore and can’t think of any. What kind of conveniences are you thinking of?

SG is a good place to live if you cannot drive and cannot cook.. probably the best one hahaha. Fairprice is just 5 mins walk from my block, MRT is just 10 mins walk, 7-Eleven is 3 mins walk, coffeshop is just 5 mins walk. Whereas in other countries you need to drive to find this stuff nearby.

[malcontent]

When we moved to the U.S. earlier this year, I intentionally chose a place that was very convenient for easy adjustment. Within 60 seconds of stepping out of our apartment I can walk into a supermarket that is massive, they have all kinds of ready to eat food - a complete salad bar, poke bowl bar, soup bar (8 kinds daily) & hot food bar (pay by weight). They have a deli with a wide array of items ready to heat up at home, and there is an attached cafe and bar if you want to eat there. Within 3 minutes walk I can access a 24h convenience store at a gas station on the corner. Within 5 minutes I can be on the metro train that goes just about everywhere. In 10 minutes walk I can be at Walgreens pharmacy and Trader Joe’s.

And, in case you are wondering, I’ve never felt unsafe walking around my neighborhood at any hour either, and I have walked around late hours like midnight and beyond.

While I fully admit this is not typical, it is possible… should it be desired.

But just thinking… when I visit my parents who live deep in the woods on a dirt road, I never feel inconvenienced. The nearby town has a population of less than 1,000, but Dollar General is 3 minutes drive, full supermarket is 5 minutes drive, post office and library, 4 minutes drive. The nearest major city (population 350,000) is a 35 minute drive, with Walmart, Costco, etc, and two major hospitals, an airport and an Amtrak station (high speed rail, which is how I often arrive). My parents are mid-80’s now and thinking about moving closer to the city - not for convenience per se, but because maintaining a home in the country takes a lot of work, mowing grass, shoveling snow, etc.

The one convenience I did think of, and I have to say this can be a big one… having a full-time, live-in helper to cook, clean, do dishes, wash clothes, babysit, etc, etc… that is one thing you just can’t duplicate here, at least not at a reasonable cost. Fortunately our kids are now grown up, so not as big of a deal for us, but it has still been a major adjustment, I must admit.

[jalanjalan]

Btw, what if I buy the cheapest HDB resale just to keep my PR and move abroad for work? Would this work? Or is it possible that I have an HDB here, but the govt still doesn't renew my REP while I am outside Singapore?

You are aware you can't buy a HDB as a single PR right?

Regarding Canada, go work or study there a while and see how. I skimmed the thread so not sure if you identified a particular place in Canada, but bear in mind it's a big place and the regions have quite different cultures. Best way to know if a place really feels like home is to try it out for a year or two.

(I'm a former Canadian turned Singaporean. I hate the cold. )

[ivicts]

Btw, what if I buy the cheapest HDB resale just to keep my PR and move abroad for work? Would this work? Or is it possible that I have an HDB here, but the govt still doesn't renew my REP while I am outside Singapore?

You are aware you can't buy a HDB as a single PR right?

Regarding Canada, go work or study there a while and see how. I skimmed the thread so not sure if you identified a particular place in Canada, but bear in mind it's a big place and the regions have quite different cultures. Best way to know if a place really feels like home is to try it out for a year or two.

(I'm a former Canadian turned Singaporean. I hate the cold. )

It's just hypothetical at this point.. It seems that applying for SG PR requires essays to demonstrate loyalty and long-term commitment to SG. However, going to Canada after obtaining SG PR seems to be misaligned with that.

How do you compare living in Canada Vs Singapore? Which ones are better for the long term? Most Canadians hate Canada, I guess haha. I will probably go to big cities, Toronto, Vancouver, Alberta.. the places where immigrants go..

[ivicts]

When we moved to the U.S. earlier this year, I intentionally chose a place that was very convenient for easy adjustment. Within 60 seconds of stepping out of our apartment I can walk into a supermarket that is massive, they have all kinds of ready to eat food - a complete salad bar, poke bowl bar, soup bar (8 kinds daily) & hot food bar (pay by weight). They have a deli with a wide array of items ready to heat up at home, and there is an attached cafe and bar if you want to eat there. Within 3 minutes walk I can access a 24h convenience store at a gas station on the corner. Within 5 minutes I can be on the metro train that goes just about everywhere. In 10 minutes walk I can be at Walgreens pharmacy and Trader Joe’s.

And, in case you are wondering, I’ve never felt unsafe walking around my neighborhood at any hour either, and I have walked around late hours like midnight and beyond.

While I fully admit this is not typical, it is possible… should it be desired.

But just thinking… when I visit my parents who live deep in the woods on a dirt road, I never feel inconvenienced. The nearby town has a population of less than 1,000, but Dollar General is 3 minutes drive, full supermarket is 5 minutes drive, post office and library, 4 minutes drive. The nearest major city (population 350,000) is a 35 minute drive, with Walmart, Costco, etc, and two major hospitals, an airport and an Amtrak station (high speed rail, which is how I often arrive). My parents are mid-80’s now and thinking about moving closer to the city - not for convenience per se, but because maintaining a home in the country takes a lot of work, mowing grass, shoveling snow, etc.

The one convenience I did think of, and I have to say this can be a big one… having a full-time, live-in helper to cook, clean, do dishes, wash clothes, babysit, etc, etc… that is one thing you just can’t duplicate here, at least not at a reasonable cost. Fortunately our kids are now grown up, so not as big of a deal for us, but it has still been a major adjustment, I must admit.

May I know which cities / states do you live? I guess the closest to SG would be NYC and if I move to the US I would probably live in NYC.. Public transports, high rise apartment, busy cities..

[NYY1]

I agree that when you consider the total time spent traveling, whether walking (plus public transport) or driving, the availability of various amenities is often about the same in Singapore and the US. The question is whether you want to walk or drive.

While many cities have some areas that approximate high density living, most will require a car at some point, as the efficiency/effectiveness of public transportation declines the further you need to go (especially off the main lines). Also, outside of NYC, the public transportation customer base is often quite different from that in other major cities around the world.

The other difference between Singapore and the US is that here kids can become independent and transport themselves around from an earlier age. That actually saves parents quite a bit of time (to/from training, lessons, etc), although if the journey is not a single point-to-point connection, it will cost the kid a lot of time (a car would be better).

Many people here can probably afford a car, but they just don't want one. Not saying that is better or worse, what other people view as normal will be different.