Singapore PR vs Canada PR, which one is better for the long term?

[ivicts]

How does living in Singapore compare to living in Canada? Singapore PR vs Canada PR? Which one is better for the long term? I have an opportunity to get Singapore PR and already have a Canada PR.

I am a foreigner 29M, single, in Singapore for 11 years, but of Chinese descent, so I can probably get a PR if I want to. Singapore's after-tax salary to cost of living ratio is very difficult to beat. Low-income tax and no capital gain tax. So, most of the time, when moving to other countries, we are probably going to have lower take-home pay than in Singapore. However, in some countries, such as Canada and the EU, the high taxes are used for free education and healthcare. Convenience is another plus in Singapore with world-class public transport, street food (no need to cook myself), and walking distance to the supermarket.

I feel that I keep getting older, and probably if I continue to stay in Singapore, I will settle down here and never try other countries. Is it worth it to move to countries, such as Canada for life experiences and opportunities with the trade-off of having (probably much) smaller take-home pay? Sometimes, I feel that I want to try out other Western countries and progressive societies to live in while I am still young, but other times, I feel that Singapore is a really good country to build wealth (+ convenience and other things) and any move will be a step back financially and I need to take the pay cut. However, I feel that Canada (and its close proximity to the US) will offer me (and my future descendants) more opportunities for the long term despite the short-term financial setback. Would it be worth it to try other countries and take the financial hit? Am I just having cold feet and afraid of stepping out of my comfort zone? Which option is better for the long term?

[Max Headroom]

Why does it have to be binary? Just live in both countries; snowbird to Singapore and spend the summer in Canada ay.

[ivicts]

Why does it have to be binary? Just live in both countries; snowbird to Singapore and spend the summer in Canada ay.

How to live in both countries while working? Also its gonna be hard to renew Singapore PR without working in Singapore...

[malcontent]

When I first moved to Singapore in 1996, my Chinese Singaporean landlord who rented me a room in his HDB said it best — Singapore is only good if you are rich.

Taxes seem low, but you have to consider indirect taxes when purchasing a car or a home. Again, if you are wealthy enough, these indirect taxes might not be significant compared to the tax savings.

For example, if you had a 7-figure annual salary or an 8-figure net worth, that would probably make Singapore a no-brainer… but a 6-figure annual salary and a 7-figure net worth… that would need careful evaluation, and would be heavily lifestyle dependent.

I would also point out that countries like Canada have retirement accounts where you can shelter your investments from tax and get a tax deduction, so your actual tax burden might be significantly less, depending how much you make.

[Strong Eagle]

The really big difference is that Canadian PR really is permanent unless you commit a criminal act or violate minimum stay rules. Singapore PR has nothing "permanent" about it except the name. Five year renewals are the norm, PR is tightly tied to being employed, and PR after retirement is anyone's guess... unless you have lots of cash.

Definitely warmer in Singapore, though.

[NYY1]

Outside of space and the political/social environment, it likely depends on what you do and whether you are talking about a single person or a family. These days, the high-end opportunity set is probably better in Singapore. Desirable housing and daily COL in the big Canadian cities are not cheap/low, especially when viewed relative to typical wages on an after-tax basis. School fees, car costs, and maybe medical will favour Canada.

[malcontent]

The really big difference is that Canadian PR really is permanent unless you commit a criminal act or violate minimum stay rules. Singapore PR has nothing "permanent" about it except the name. Five year renewals are the norm, PR is tightly tied to being employed, and PR after retirement is anyone's guess... unless you have lots of cash.

Definitely warmer in Singapore, though.

Our very own SMS has tested the system - both letting his REP expire while remaining on-island… as well as renewing after age 55 as a retiree.

But any PR who steps foot off-island without valid REP has screwed the pooch.

[ivicts]

The really big difference is that Canadian PR really is permanent unless you commit a criminal act or violate minimum stay rules. Singapore PR has nothing "permanent" about it except the name. Five year renewals are the norm, PR is tightly tied to being employed, and PR after retirement is anyone's guess... unless you have lots of cash.

Definitely warmer in Singapore, though.

Our very own SMS has tested the system - both letting his REP expire while remaining on-island… as well as renewing after age 55 as a retiree.

But any PR who steps foot off-island without valid REP has screwed the pooch.

So, can we use Singapore PR for retirement? Did the REP get renewed? This is something new that I haven't considered yet..

[NYY1]

If you read the board, not all REPs have been renewed (or some have been given signs that the outlook is not great). Spouse of an SC is an entirely different situation from some single PTS.

I don't think there's anything definitive, but it's not hard to understand which groups are safe and which groups have more risk.

[ivicts]

If you read the board, not all REPs have been renewed (or some have been given signs that the outlook is not great). Spouse of an SC is an entirely different situation from some single PTS.

I don't think there's anything definitive, but it's not hard to understand which groups are safe and which groups have more risk.

Do you mean for retirement?

Btw, what if I buy the cheapest HDB resale just to keep my PR and move abroad for work? Would this work? Or is it possible that I have an HDB here, but the govt still doesn't renew my REP while I am outside Singapore?

[PNGMK]

If you read the board, not all REPs have been renewed (or some have been given signs that the outlook is not great). Spouse of an SC is an entirely different situation from some single PTS.

I don't think there's anything definitive, but it's not hard to understand which groups are safe and which groups have more risk.

Do you mean for retirement?

Btw, what if I buy the cheapest HDB resale just to keep my PR and move abroad for work? Would this work? Or is it possible that I have an HDB here, but the govt still doesn't renew my REP while I am outside Singapore?

I don't think that will work. We don't know the REP algorithm but that approval is often "automatic" (or instant) and then sometimes long and manual with questions - there are clearly red flags that are used. Lack of taxable income is one for < 55 yo and I think they are doing a count on the number of days you've been in Singapore each time as well are red flags.

[ivicts]

When I first moved to Singapore in 1996, my Chinese Singaporean landlord who rented me a room in his HDB said it best — Singapore is only good if you are rich.

Taxes seem low, but you have to consider indirect taxes when purchasing a car or a home. Again, if you are wealthy enough, these indirect taxes might not be significant compared to the tax savings.

For example, if you had a 7-figure annual salary or an 8-figure net worth, that would probably make Singapore a no-brainer… but a 6-figure annual salary and a 7-figure net worth… that would need careful evaluation, and would be heavily lifestyle dependent.

I would also point out that countries like Canada have retirement accounts where you can shelter your investments from tax and get a tax deduction, so your actual tax burden might be significantly less, depending how much you make.

I feel that in SG, we have a choice to live lavishly as an expat or live as a local..
1. HDB vs condo
2. Public transport vs Car
3. Hawker vs Restaurant
As a single man, I'm saving quite OK in SG. Given that I haven't bought a home or a car, though..

[malcontent]

I feel that in SG, we have a choice to live lavishly as an expat or live as a local..
1. HDB vs condo
2. Public transport vs Car
3. Hawker vs Restaurant
As a single man, I'm saving quite OK in SG. Given that I haven't bought a home or a car, though..

When I first moved to Singapore, I was single (unmarried anyway) and age 24, renting a room in an HDB, taking public transport and eating hawker food daily. I actually moved without a job, but eventually got a job along with a batch of other fresh or nearly fresh grads and earned a typical local starting salary.

However, I moved to SG from the U.S. where I had recently graduated from university and worked there for over a year — rented my own apartment, drove my own car and ate at home for the most part (as is typical). I came from the Midwest which has lower costs, so while I was able to keep my expenses equal to what I spent in the U.S., my material standard of living was significantly lower, because I didn’t have my own place or a car. This loss of privacy and convenience is one thing, but being away from family and friends was tough too.

Personally, I wouldn’t have stayed in SG if it were not for my significant other who I eventually was able to marry after a long, drawn out ordeal. I was also lucky to make local friends at my job — we went out all the time, almost like my friends back in the US. So although I lived a simple life without any expat benefits, it was rewarding — especially the work experience at a large MNC where I got to work with people from all over the world.

After around 15 years in SG, I was finally able to get my own place, and eventually was able to enjoy a few expat luxuries. By the end, I had a freehold condo in district 10, had an American Club membership, sent one of my kids to the American school and we had a car which I only drove on the weekends (I kept taking the train to work, which I learned to enjoy). But none of these “luxuries” made me feel good, because we had to pay for them ourselves, and it wasn’t cheap.

Now that we have finally moved back to the U.S. at the start of this year, eating in here is still cheaper than eating out there, at least for local food (in both cases). I bought a nearly new luxury car for $37k. My kids have finally gotten out of the bubble and realize there is a big world out there. My daughter tells me fresh grads she knows are easily getting 6-figure starting salaries here, so she has become a lot more motivated and wants to join the FIRE movement!

[Strong Eagle]

Do you mean for retirement?

Btw, what if I buy the cheapest HDB resale just to keep my PR and move abroad for work? Would this work? Or is it possible that I have an HDB here, but the govt still doesn't renew my REP while I am outside Singapore?

Your problem is not your residence, your problem is failure to pay income tax and CPF in Singapore. If you are working abroad for more than 183 days, that means that you are tax resident abroad and will pay income tax in your country of residence. The exception is if you are seconded by a Singapore company to another country but are still employed by the Singapore company... example, Dell Singapore sends you to KL for a year... you pay Malaysian income tax but still work for the Singapore entity.

Unless you are a masochist and want to pay tax twice, you will not be paying into Singapore income tax or CPF. This is a definite red flag that could cause your REP to not be renewed, just so the gahmen knows your are working in Singapore... or NOT.

[ivicts]

I feel that in SG, we have a choice to live lavishly as an expat or live as a local..
1. HDB vs condo
2. Public transport vs Car
3. Hawker vs Restaurant
As a single man, I'm saving quite OK in SG. Given that I haven't bought a home or a car, though..

When I first moved to Singapore, I was single (unmarried anyway) and age 24, renting a room in an HDB, taking public transport and eating hawker food daily. I actually moved without a job, but eventually got a job along with a batch of other fresh or nearly fresh grads and earned a typical local starting salary.

However, I moved to SG from the U.S. where I had recently graduated from university and worked there for over a year — rented my own apartment, drove my own car and ate at home for the most part (as is typical). I came from the Midwest which has lower costs, so while I was able to keep my expenses equal to what I spent in the U.S., my material standard of living was significantly lower, because I didn’t have my own place or a car. This loss of privacy and convenience is one thing, but being away from family and friends was tough too.

Personally, I wouldn’t have stayed in SG if it were not for my significant other who I eventually was able to marry after a long, drawn out ordeal. I was also lucky to make local friends at my job — we went out all the time, almost like my friends back in the US. So although I lived a simple life without any expat benefits, it was rewarding — especially the work experience at a large MNC where I got to work with people from all over the world.

After around 15 years in SG, I was finally able to get my own place, and eventually was able to enjoy a few expat luxuries. By the end, I had a freehold condo in district 10, had an American Club membership, sent one of my kids to the American school and we had a car which I only drove on the weekends (I kept taking the train to work, which I learned to enjoy). But none of these “luxuries” made me feel good, because we had to pay for them ourselves, and it wasn’t cheap.

Now that we have finally moved back to the U.S. at the start of this year, eating in here is still cheaper than eating out there, at least for local food (in both cases). I bought a nearly new luxury car for $37k. My kids have finally gotten out of the bubble and realize there is a big world out there. My daughter tells me fresh grads she knows are easily getting 6-figure starting salaries here, so she has become a lot more motivated and wants to join the FIRE movement!

I would want to go to the US as well! How does living in the US compare to living in SG? I feel that the US offers more opportunities compared to SG, while SG offers convenience. Actually one of the benefits of moving to canada is its proximity to the US.