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Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Discuss about the different financial investment options, financial markets, common investment products and what is trending in the market.
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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by malcontent » Mon, 19 May 2025 1:18 am

The 30% tax on US source dividends applies to most but not all overseas jurisdictions. For example, Ireland has a tax treaty with the U.S. which lowers it to 15%. This is one reason why London traded ETFs are so popular with non-US persons, because most ETFs holding U.S. stocks that are traded in London are domiciled in Ireland, allowing you to retain maximum dividends.

This is what I meant when I said London traded ETFs are tax optimized for non-US persons.

In addition, holding US stocks or funds directly by non-US persons could subject your investments to as much as 40% estate tax on your beneficiaries if anything should happen to you. This can be a very unpleasant surprise and happened to someone I knew at work, the surviving spouse ended up paying a six figure tax bill. This can easily be avoided by investing on the LSE instead of NYSE, or at least limiting your US exposure to $60,000.
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows - Epictetus

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by malcontent » Mon, 19 May 2025 1:35 am

abbby wrote:
Sat, 17 May 2025 9:30 am
Great advice here, so much to learn.

I started off with SG stocks and now trying US stocks and going to try ETF..

Trying to offload the SG stocks to get into ETF, looking at the SG and US market, US market seems to have more volatility and growth potential than SG stocks...

Which ETF stock do you think is a good time to buy?
One of the most famous sayings by investment gurus — the best time to buy is today. In other words, as soon as you have the savings available to invest, you should immediately put it into the market without delay. If the market drops, that’s good news, because next month when you get paid, you’ll be able to buy even more shares with the same amount of savings.

I strongly recommend opening an account with Interactive Brokers and doing what I described above. Invest in London traded ISAC which has a very low expense ratio of 0.2% and gets you the broadest diversification possible, with thousands of stocks from around the world (around 60% of the index consists of US stocks, including the one you mentioned, plus the rest of the world).
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows - Epictetus

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Tue, 20 May 2025 5:12 pm

thanks malcontent. let me study ISAC, sounds really interesting
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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by smoulder » Tue, 20 May 2025 6:26 pm

Some other notable mentions of London listed Ireland domicile ETFs - CSPX (S&P 500), CNDX (Nasdaq 100).

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Tue, 20 May 2025 9:43 pm

malcontent wrote:
Mon, 19 May 2025 1:35 am
abbby wrote:
Sat, 17 May 2025 9:30 am
Great advice here, so much to learn.

I started off with SG stocks and now trying US stocks and going to try ETF..

Trying to offload the SG stocks to get into ETF, looking at the SG and US market, US market seems to have more volatility and growth potential than SG stocks...

Which ETF stock do you think is a good time to buy?
One of the most famous sayings by investment gurus — the best time to buy is today. In other words, as soon as you have the savings available to invest, you should immediately put it into the market without delay. If the market drops, that’s good news, because next month when you get paid, you’ll be able to buy even more shares with the same amount of savings.

I strongly recommend opening an account with Interactive Brokers and doing what I described above. Invest in London traded ISAC which has a very low expense ratio of 0.2% and gets you the broadest diversification possible, with thousands of stocks from around the world (around 60% of the index consists of US stocks, including the one you mentioned, plus the rest of the world).
This I agree too... The people who make a lot t of money are using their money to make more money.. I think it's better than putting in banks
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Tue, 20 May 2025 9:44 pm

smoulder wrote:
Tue, 20 May 2025 6:26 pm
Some other notable mentions of London listed Ireland domicile ETFs - CSPX (S&P 500), CNDX (Nasdaq 100).
OK I'll go read up more on these too.. Wow the world of stocks is immensely huge..
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by Max Headroom » Wed, 21 May 2025 11:56 am

Recommended reading:

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds is an early study of crowd psychology by Scottish journalist Charles Mackay, first published in 1841 under the title Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions.

The key lesson: these always end the same way.

: )

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Wed, 21 May 2025 6:57 pm

malcontent wrote:
Mon, 19 May 2025 1:18 am
The 30% tax on US source dividends applies to most but not all overseas jurisdictions. For example, Ireland has a tax treaty with the U.S. which lowers it to 15%. This is one reason why London traded ETFs are so popular with non-US persons, because most ETFs holding U.S. stocks that are traded in London are domiciled in Ireland, allowing you to retain maximum dividends.

This is what I meant when I said London traded ETFs are tax optimized for non-US persons.

In addition, holding US stocks or funds directly by non-US persons could subject your investments to as much as 40% estate tax on your beneficiaries if anything should happen to you. This can be a very unpleasant surprise and happened to someone I knew at work, the surviving spouse ended up paying a six figure tax bill. This can easily be avoided by investing on the LSE instead of NYSE, or at least limiting your US exposure to $60,000.
Oh now I get the fuller picture, for LSE - we can only buy ETFs?
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Wed, 21 May 2025 6:57 pm

Max Headroom wrote:
Wed, 21 May 2025 11:56 am
Recommended reading:

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds is an early study of crowd psychology by Scottish journalist Charles Mackay, first published in 1841 under the title Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions.

The key lesson: these always end the same way.

: )
Got it, thanks!
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by malcontent » Thu, 22 May 2025 1:52 am

abbby wrote:
Wed, 21 May 2025 6:57 pm
malcontent wrote:
Mon, 19 May 2025 1:18 am
The 30% tax on US source dividends applies to most but not all overseas jurisdictions. For example, Ireland has a tax treaty with the U.S. which lowers it to 15%. This is one reason why London traded ETFs are so popular with non-US persons, because most ETFs holding U.S. stocks that are traded in London are domiciled in Ireland, allowing you to retain maximum dividends.

This is what I meant when I said London traded ETFs are tax optimized for non-US persons.

In addition, holding US stocks or funds directly by non-US persons could subject your investments to as much as 40% estate tax on your beneficiaries if anything should happen to you. This can be a very unpleasant surprise and happened to someone I knew at work, the surviving spouse ended up paying a six figure tax bill. This can easily be avoided by investing on the LSE instead of NYSE, or at least limiting your US exposure to $60,000.
Oh now I get the fuller picture, for LSE - we can only buy ETFs?
No, not only ETFs… but most investors are going to stick to ETFs because it’s a ready-made portfolio that doesn’t need any expertise or effort, you just set it and forget it - wake up decade later with double your money (assuming 7.2% p.a. which is below the historical average).

TBH, most people who buy individual stocks should not be - even professional investment managers, 9 times out of 10, the index beats them. But I know how itchy fingers works, it’s hard to resist.
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows - Epictetus

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by Strong Eagle » Thu, 22 May 2025 5:41 am

I second all the great comments made by malcontent. Slow and steady wins the race.

For those folks who think they have the knowledge and skills to buy individual stocks, or to jump into some kind of market timing scheme, or some kind of "technicals" program, you have to remember this: There are tons of people out there with far more information than you have, and far more experience than you have. And even the market professionals who buy and sell for managed funds cannot beat market averages and more often, do worse than average.

There is a great (and funny) article about managed funds and their inability to beat the market over the long haul. https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/why ... h-the-pack A cat batting a toy mouse onto a number grid beat three money managers in market return.

Second, any single stock is inherently risky when compared to holding a basket of stocks in a similar line of business. Let's say you have an opportunity to invest Acme Construction, a company which builds office buildings, or you have the opportunity to invest in a building construction ETF which holds the stocks of 100 companies that construction in proportion to their capitalization.

Both the ETF and the individual stock will go up or down along with the broader market but you may find that the ETF has less extreme ups and downs because the values of all the stocks in the ETF will try to average towards the center... some do worse, some do better. Profits may also tend towards the center... the price you pay for a risk reduced investment.

But let's say you buy Acme Construction because they just built a new high rise apartment complex in KL. The building is in high demand and Acme is riding high, so you dump $10,000 into it. Six months later, it is discovered that the foundation is faulty. Two months after that, the building falls over, and the next thing you know, Acme is bankrupt and your $10,000 investment is now worth nothing.

Now suppose you put that $10,000 into an ETF with 100 companies in it, including Acme. Acme crashes as before, only this time your investment might only drop down to $9800 because the rest of the companies are doing just fine.

I'll say one more thing about market timing and panic selling. Some people sell when the market drops, to avoid more losses with the idea that they'll buy back in when the market turns. But there is plenty of evidence that this is bad policy. First of all, you've sold at a loss. Then when the market turns and starts going up, you buy back in. So, you've already locked in a loss that you must makeup before you can even return to where you were.

Timing guys are at risk as well... the idea is that you supposedly read a basket of market "indicators" and then you sell just before the market drops and buy back in just as it starts going up. Except, those "indicators" are notoriously unreliable, and between selling early and not capturing all of the upside appreciation, or selling late and riding a stock all the way down, market timers also do worse than the market averages.

On a personal note, I've invested in individual stocks a handful of times because I was pretty sure that I had the stock figured out. Most didn't work out. Shorted Dell a few years back... only a few thousand worth... but the stock didn't move as expected and it took me more that 6 months to avoid a loss and walk away with about a $20 profit.

I invested in Crown Castle after rabble rouser Elliot investments bought into it, figuring that since this previously caused rises in valuations of the companies Elliot invested in, I'd make a buck. It's been a dog. I would have been better leaving my money in an S&P ETF.

Or, Texas split electric energy companies into regulated and unregulated components... seemed like the unregulated company was the one to invest in. But guess what? The regulated company has provided far better returns.

For these two reasons (diversity of stocks in ETF and not trying to beat market moves) buying and holding of ETF's and mutual funds is the way to ensure steady growth with the least amount of risks.

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Fri, 23 May 2025 9:40 am

Thanks @Strong Eagle for sharing. Good advice.

Like Kodak and Blackberry their stocks became worthless when smartphones were introduced ...I think nobody saw it coming.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by malcontent » Fri, 23 May 2025 12:56 pm

There is a really great book by the late, great John Bogle (founder of Vanguard, often called St. John because no person on the earth has done so much good for investors as him - hands down), and it’s called The Little Book of Common Sense Investing.

If you read no other book on investing, this is the one… it’s not long or hard to understand. It can truly be life changing.
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows - Epictetus

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by abbby » Thu, 29 May 2025 1:18 pm

Can I ask the experts here, if you had US$45K, what stocks /ETFs would you invest in and how much $ in each? Like to have an idea what's a healthy, balanced (and profitable) portfolio ..
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. - Groucho Marx (1890-1977)

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Re: Which is better - buying for dividend payout or buying for gain

Post by malcontent » Thu, 29 May 2025 5:07 pm

Is this the start of a retirement fund, kid’s college fund, vacation fund?

Is it part of a larger portfolio or stand-alone?

Will additional funds be added to this over time?

What is the maximum time horizon (holding period) you are looking at before using it?

What is your risk appetite? If it temporarily dropped by half would that bother you?
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows - Epictetus

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