Frustration Over PR Rejection

[raptor_from_vietnam]

My wife and I just received a rejection letter this morning for our PR application. We are both Vietnamese, having been in SG for 15 years since secondary school. After graduating from NUS here on SG government scholarship, I have been working in Pharma and she in Oil& Gas, with combined income of 17k a month. Sure we are not high earners, but not too shabby either. We are both professionals with very specific skill sets in our fields. This is the 3rd rejection letter we have received over the past 5 years. Now that we are expecting a baby next year, the PR is even more important because we want our daughter to be born into some certainty in life. My friends and family kept saying had it been another country, like Australia and Canada, we would have already gotten in with our qualifications. I know so many Malaysian Chinese who earn way less, been in Singapore for way way shorter time, who got the PR so easily on their first try. Now I feel like an idiot for harboring hopes of getting the PR.

[jalanjalan]

Sorry to hear that it didn't work out this time. It's apples and oranges to compare to places like Canada or Australia though. SG is tiny and super competitive, and it's not likely to get less so. May want to consider a plan B.

[malcontent]

We seen many cases similar to yours on this forum.

It is truly unfortunate, but it’s good that you are adding the data point, as it may help others avoid the same false hopes.

I’ve often thought that preference should be given to ASEAN nationals who are racially classified as Others. The MOE gives preferential school fees for ASEAN nationals, but that’s about it.

That said, Others appears to be the fastest growing race in terms of % of the population here, but it’s still insignificant, so I hope they will continue to crack the door wider (selfishly, I would hope to see better Vietnamese food here — it’s pretty bad, even compared to the U.S.)

[MOCHS]

sms did mention whether being North or South Vietnamese carries some weight.

There has to be continuous improvement between each PR application. If you’re still in same job and same pay between applications, then same data in = same result out.

And do you stay HDB or condo which tends to be an expat enclave?

Have a plan B just in case. You’re not the only one on the forum who has been in SG for a long time but still can’t get PR.

[raptor_from_vietnam]

My wife is from the North while I am from the South. She was the main applicant for the 2nd and 3rd time but I was for the 1st. I don't think it makes too much of a difference. We are still at the same companies as we were in the first application, with significantly better pay and different title. I just feel so frustrated because we were so ready to call Singapore home, and we are relatively young (29&30), so we have a lifetime to contribute here, both through our career and through having kids. We were both basically brought to SG on their gov scholarship, which paid for our secondary, JC and then uni here (we are extremely grateful for this). The long stay since our formative years allowed us to integrate very well. I now look and sound exactly like a Singaporean, with many local friends. But now Singapore gov doesnt want us here anymore. They are like forcing us to leave. I guess the most frustrating part of all is the lack of transparency. If I know where I am lacking, I can improve on that. But I dont. Being non-Chinese is the first, I cant change that. But I know a few Viet friends who I know earn less, some even single, and still got it. The feeling of being inadequate, and at the same time not knowing where we are inadequate at, really sucks.

[smoulder]

I can understand it must be quite frustrating. However, I see that all is not lost. Namely you are both still young, well under 40 which is kind of the unwritten cut off age for most countries to grant PR.

And this forum - we tell people the unvarnished truth as SMS says.

So pick yourself up, make yourself a plan B and don't get your hopes up regarding Singapore.

[NYY1]

My wife and I just received a rejection letter this morning for our PR application. We are both Vietnamese, having been in SG for 15 years since secondary school. After graduating from NUS here on SG government scholarship, I have been working in Pharma and she in Oil& Gas, with combined income of 17k a month. Sure we are not high earners, but not too shabby either. We are both professionals with very specific skill sets in our fields. This is the 3rd rejection letter we have received over the past 5 years. Now that we are expecting a baby next year, the PR is even more important because we want our daughter to be born into some certainty in life. My friends and family kept saying had it been another country, like Australia and Canada, we would have already gotten in with our qualifications. I know so many Malaysian Chinese who earn way less, been in Singapore for way way shorter time, who got the PR so easily on their first try. Now I feel like an idiot for harboring hopes of getting the PR.

First, congratulations on the pregnancy. Second, sorry to hear the result (I remember some of your other posts).

No one can say whether you should keep trying (knowing that it may never come and eventually you may need to go back) or whether you should look for somewhere else. For the latter (if that's what you decide to do), the time to move is sooner rather than later. Perhaps right now is not ideal for you guys (baby coming), but you probably need to come to a decision on which route you will go (or at least run a search elsewhere concurrently).

Personally, I don't think the employment / cost of living situation in Canada is really any better than it is here (especially in the big cities), but the country does have a pathway to long-term residence/citizenship (if that is the main goal). Canada is also likely to face tighter immigration standards in the coming years (although it will probably still be easier for someone like you) - see below.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp9z5rpgkyeo

I do understand your situation - best of luck and regards.

[raptor_from_vietnam]

Thank you for the kind response. I did consider Canada, but recently the employment/cost of living situation there is a bit messed up. People cant seem to be able to save up much over there. I also heard the job market there is insanely discriminatory (not sure if it's the right words), with many employers asking to see "Canadian experience", basically they only consider people who have studied or worked in Canada before. I my a cousin with an Econs master degree from the top university in Finland, he obtained the PR in Canada before he even landed, only to face with rejection after rejection while seeking a white collar job there. He is now working in a supermarket. I have also heard of similar horror stories while reading only forums. So we decided maybe Canada is not exactly a great place. Hence we are thinking of Australia right now, even tho the immigration path for Australia is harder and longer than Canada's (but still transparent, point-based, unlike SG's black box).

Tbh, the immigration to any developed country has become a lot harder everywhere. That makes us think about going back home in Vietnam. We already have enough savings to buy 2 houses in Ho Chi Minh city, and our parents from both side have a couple of houses in the city being rented out, which in time would be passed to us. So financial survival is less of an issue there. However, we just dont want our kid to grow up in Vietnam. The society is not exactly ideal to grow up. It is Confucianism, Marxism, crony capitalism, ultra nationalism all mixed together, creating a very morally compromised society. Sure the growth has been impressive lately, but I dont think it is sustainable, looking at how China struggles lately after their real estate bubble bursts (Vietnam is intentionally modelled after China). That's why we still want to settle down in a developed country with rule of law.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wishes. I also think that we should move earlier rather than later, seeing how the gates are being closed everywhere. But you're also right, now is not exactly convenient time as the baby will pop out very soon. I guess we'll slowly prepare for the Australian one.

[newsingaporeuser]

It's a tough situation. I know a number of people in a similar ASEAN scholarship situation to you.

It's worth noting that 17k between two of you is not that high in the grand scheme of things.

What differentiated them was those who were successful at getting PR easily were Malaysian Chinese (within the first couple of tries), while the others were not. This is not new news to this forum.
Those who weren't Malaysia Chinse kept applying and, in some cases, finally got PR after more than 10 years of applying. I'm not saying you should keeping applying, I'm just giving you context.
They felt that they had been in Singapore so long that they didn't feel at home anywhere else ... hence the never ending applications!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!!

[jalanjalan]

Yeah now is not the time to migrate to Canada unless you already have a job lined up (maybe possbile with Oil&Gas if you head to Alberta, but I'm not sure nowadays). Even locals are finding it tough to find good jobs. You may find some low wage sort of job but.. why. There's the catch with Canada - transparent immigration system but once you are in, then what? Best to go with job in hand.

[malcontent]

Thank you for the kind response. I did consider Canada, but recently the employment/cost of living situation there is a bit messed up. People cant seem to be able to save up much over there. I also heard the job market there is insanely discriminatory (not sure if it's the right words), with many employers asking to see "Canadian experience", basically they only consider people who have studied or worked in Canada before. I my a cousin with an Econs master degree from the top university in Finland, he obtained the PR in Canada before he even landed, only to face with rejection after rejection while seeking a white collar job there. He is now working in a supermarket. I have also heard of similar horror stories while reading only forums. So we decided maybe Canada is not exactly a great place. Hence we are thinking of Australia right now, even tho the immigration path for Australia is harder and longer than Canada's (but still transparent, point-based, unlike SG's black box).

Tbh, the immigration to any developed country has become a lot harder everywhere. That makes us think about going back home in Vietnam. We already have enough savings to buy 2 houses in Ho Chi Minh city, and our parents from both side have a couple of houses in the city being rented out, which in time would be passed to us. So financial survival is less of an issue there. However, we just dont want our kid to grow up in Vietnam. The society is not exactly ideal to grow up. It is Confucianism, Marxism, crony capitalism, ultra nationalism all mixed together, creating a very morally compromised society. Sure the growth has been impressive lately, but I dont think it is sustainable, looking at how China struggles lately after their real estate bubble bursts (Vietnam is intentionally modelled after China). That's why we still want to settle down in a developed country with rule of law.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wishes. I also think that we should move earlier rather than later, seeing how the gates are being closed everywhere. But you're also right, now is not exactly convenient time as the baby will pop out very soon. I guess we'll slowly prepare for the Australian one.

Yes, the way I see it, having kids here puts a third financial challenge on your horizon.

The first challenge, you are presumably paying a hefty price for housing here without access to HDB. The second is you are missing out on the employer’s CPF contributions, S$34,680 annually for both of you. Now the third one will be schooling costs, starting in as few as 3 years (Nursery 1), and that will only increase, even if they get into local school.

Without any certainty of ever getting PR, you need to start firming up your plan B now.

[NYY1]

Thank you for the kind response. I did consider Canada, but recently the employment/cost of living situation there is a bit messed up. People cant seem to be able to save up much over there. I also heard the job market there is insanely discriminatory (not sure if it's the right words), with many employers asking to see "Canadian experience", basically they only consider people who have studied or worked in Canada before. I my a cousin with an Econs master degree from the top university in Finland, he obtained the PR in Canada before he even landed, only to face with rejection after rejection while seeking a white collar job there. He is now working in a supermarket. I have also heard of similar horror stories while reading only forums. So we decided maybe Canada is not exactly a great place. Hence we are thinking of Australia right now, even tho the immigration path for Australia is harder and longer than Canada's (but still transparent, point-based, unlike SG's black box).

Tbh, the immigration to any developed country has become a lot harder everywhere. That makes us think about going back home in Vietnam. We already have enough savings to buy 2 houses in Ho Chi Minh city, and our parents from both side have a couple of houses in the city being rented out, which in time would be passed to us. So financial survival is less of an issue there. However, we just dont want our kid to grow up in Vietnam. The society is not exactly ideal to grow up. It is Confucianism, Marxism, crony capitalism, ultra nationalism all mixed together, creating a very morally compromised society. Sure the growth has been impressive lately, but I dont think it is sustainable, looking at how China struggles lately after their real estate bubble bursts (Vietnam is intentionally modelled after China). That's why we still want to settle down in a developed country with rule of law.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wishes. I also think that we should move earlier rather than later, seeing how the gates are being closed everywhere. But you're also right, now is not exactly convenient time as the baby will pop out very soon. I guess we'll slowly prepare for the Australian one.

You can also consider the UK; I think PR/ILR there takes 5 years. As a financial hub, London is certainly ahead of the other locations (probably Singapore as well, although the gap is narrowing with the changes in Asia/money flowing here). For other industries, I'm not really sure (my impression is that typical real after tax wages are not great in any of the three and desirable housing is expensive in all of them). The UK is also in the midst of some political change, and one needs to see what the current government comes up (a couple of specific issues are supposed to be released this week).

If you don't want your kid to grow up in Vietnam (I'm not taking a stance here), try to look around and see what else is available after the birth. The gates are unlikely to close completely, but generally speaking our mobility is highest when we are young. If not, just play out the option here as long as you can and see if you can get through.

Good luck and regards.

[raptor_from_vietnam]

Yeah, we definitely have to explore other options now. A decade later we would be 40, at which point nobody would want us anymore as new immigrant. I just hope that if it does not work out, and we are stuck here, then the best thing we can do is like what Wd40 did, to accumulate enough saving to go back home and retire comfortably. The difference between me and him is only that he wants his daughter to grow up as Indian, I am less inclined for mine to grow up as Vietnamese. But there are good things about being Vietnamese as well, one being survival instinct (hard to quantify and describe), which I think is better compared to my local friends on average. We can send her to overseas to study in college as well, even if we have to go back home. So that's that.

[malcontent]

Being from Vietnam, I imagine Australia has the most appeal in terms of location. I heard they can grant you tentative PR while you still work here (based on the points system) and as long as you spend at least 2 of the next 5 years in Australia, you keep the PR. I know a few people here who have done that. It gives you both flexibility and certainty.

[raptor_from_vietnam]

Being from Vietnam, I imagine Australia has the most appeal in terms of location. I heard they can grant you tentative PR while you still work here (based on the points system) and as long as you spend at least 2 of the next 5 years in Australia, you keep the PR. I know a few people here who have done that. It gives you both flexibility and certainty.

Yes, that's right. Geographically it is close enough to Vietnam, with plenty of direct flights to my hometown. There are also more than half a million Vietnamese Australian there, not counting the students and those on work visa. Hence, I think we can easily find our own people there, although it is not high on our priority (we don't subscribe to the cultural enclave idea). Being from the APAC HQ, I have worked with clients in Australia before. Working culture seems quite chill over there. I have never gotten any work email reply on the same day if I send it after like 4PM their time, not even 5PM. Your point of flexibility is what I have stressed to my wife. She was hesitant to even consider other destinations in the past, due to fear of not being able to find a job there. But I told her we can look for jobs while we are here. She is a chemical engineer in the biggest oil company in the world, having been rotated to multiple functions here, so I don't think she should be too scared of the job market there. I too have known a few couples who moved there after getting PR rejected repeatedly here. I guess the biggest downside I can think of is that remuneration vs COL ratio in Australia is not as good as in Singapore, but that's more for like single people without kids. With the kids, Singapore is gonna be more expensive. I heard Australians are quite racist though, but honestly I am not too concerned. As long as they are civilized don't do anything to harm us, it's fine. It's not like there is no racism or xenophobia here.