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Missed So Many Oppurtunities

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Wd40
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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by Wd40 » Sun, 13 Oct 2024 8:47 pm

One of the reasons Indians move back to India before their kids grow up, is so that the kids then spend their teenage years in India and hopefully marry an Indian within the religion even if outside the caste.

The mismatch in cultures is so much that it is just not worth it. I know majority of long timers in this forum are mixed race marriages, but I am sure you guys agree, the amount of adjustments you have to make, in the end after the initial honeymoon phase marriage is mainly about compatibility and having the same culture where roles and expectations are clearly defined, is much more easier life to lead.

The kind of hoops you people have jumped to make the mixed marriage work is really commendable. I am too lazy and my expectations out of life are too low, for that kind of challenge.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by smoulder » Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:35 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:44 am
@ smoulder

I hear you. My daughter is one of the ones who ''upset the applecart" when she married her husband. He's a pure blood Malayali (but as high caste, they are all Syrian Orthodox Catholics). Both parents are long term PR's (like me at around 30 years each). My Son-in-Law is now an SGC having been 'offered' SGC if he would go to Officer Candidate School. He's a SAF Cpt NS man today, He's also has a BSc/MSc/PhD in Aeronautical Engineering. But the Marriage was a bit of an issue although it resolved itself beautifully. Him being Malayali and my Daughter being a No-Caste half-breed Tamil cause a fair bit of consternation with his parents (father) and dead-set against the union. Took a fair bit of time to get us two old men to break bread and have a talk but eventually we did It. He didn't want to lose his only child and Shanu was determine to marry my daughter. *I now have two grandsons of 4 & 8 years of age from that union. Oh, the father & I now get along famously, and while staying at their Bungalow he introduced me to Kerela Toddy (both green and late in the evening as it reaches it's peak) and that was a good start to us burying the hatchet.
So most of us "converts" are supposed to be casteless. In theory. I can't speak for all of us. Maybe there are some who explicitly retain their castes. Or perhaps created a new sub caste of former upper caste Hindus who are now Christian or Muslim.

However, in my own case, my mum was catholic and my dad officially was an upper caste hindu. Both my mother's parents were from communities that were originally high caste and then converted. My grandmother's family had converted more recently so that they even know their hindu family name prior to conversion. Through that, they know the caste. My grandfather's family had converted a few more centuries prior so their exact background is speculation. However, it turns out that both my maternal grandparents and my fathers ancestors pretty much belong to the same original community before they migrated around India and some converted.

Now the thing is that neither of my maternal grandparents retain their caste officially. Nor unofficially. However, and this is my own recent realization. They and many others like us end up mixing with the same type of people in terms of both former or current caste status. We are all pretty much from the same socio economic status and we end up marrying among this group and this whole thing gets perpetuated.

Now, when my mum and dad got married, my dad on paper was a hindu, but in reality he was an atheist. My mum's condition to him was that the kids should be brought up as catholics which he agreed to. So officially for us - there's no caste. In reality, we roughly know what it "would have been".

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by smoulder » Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:51 pm

Wd40 wrote:
Sun, 13 Oct 2024 8:47 pm
One of the reasons Indians move back to India before their kids grow up, is so that the kids then spend their teenage years in India and hopefully marry an Indian within the religion even if outside the caste.

The mismatch in cultures is so much that it is just not worth it. I know majority of long timers in this forum are mixed race marriages, but I am sure you guys agree, the amount of adjustments you have to make, in the end after the initial honeymoon phase marriage is mainly about compatibility and having the same culture where roles and expectations are clearly defined, is much more easier life to lead.

The kind of hoops you people have jumped to make the mixed marriage work is really commendable. I am too lazy and my expectations out of life are too low, for that kind of challenge.
So marriage is ultimately about finding common ground as you are alluding to. The further apart you are the more adjustments you have to make and the harder it is.

In my own case, this is my second marriage. My first was to a Tamil Catholic born and raised mostly in Bangalore (partially in Saudi Arabia). On paper we are more closely matched than my second wife, a Malaysian Chinese Taoist. You know what? Culturally, I found it harder as a Catholic from Mumbai to adjust to my ex wife's family. Secondly, I'm way more easy going when it comes to religion and my ex was more devout. Then there were differences in individual characters which are more generic in nature rather than cultural or religious.

What makes my current marriage far more harmonious is probably also that neither of us are particularly tied up by our cultures. Food wise, we are both open to each other's food and can adjust to most types of cuisines across the world. (the only thing my wife cannot take is Indian sweets, which I absolutely love!)

So it really depends. You would think that those of us who are in mixed marriages had to make major adjustments, but I think that most of us are easily adjustable and we managed to find common ground despite different cultures. At least those of us who have been together for long enough. I have heard of mixed marriages that are not so successful and largely it's because they are unable to bridge the cultural differences in my opinion.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 14 Oct 2024 12:13 am

smoulder wrote:
Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:35 pm
Now, when my mum and dad got married, my dad on paper was a hindu, but in reality he was an atheist. My mum's condition to him was that the kids should be brought up as catholics which he agreed to. So officially for us - there's no caste. In reality, we roughly know what it "would have been".
Something similar in my own household, only it was me who laid out the conditions. My wife, as noted, was born a Catholic and remains so today at 78. However, when we got married it had to be via JP as the church wouldn't marry us (much to her dismay). I was baptized as a Lutheran, raised as Presbyterian and became an Agnostic at the age of 14 (I was already reading at 2nd year University level). I'm still Agnostic today although I've studied most of the major and a lot of the minor religions around the world after leaving the church (even after arriving in Singapore in 82 (about 25 years of independent study). Anyway, the rules were set out by myself as opposed to my wife to be. "If" we should have any children (technically I couldn't father any) She was welcome to brainwash them religiously any way she chose to up to the age of 14 years (the age I quit the church). After that she had to promise that she would not interfere should they decide to leave the church. (And I would NOT in anyway discuss my beliefs or try to interfere in that regard from the day of their births, but with the proviso that she also could not interfere should they decide to leave). My daughter has kept her faith and/or is semi-changing to her husbands' religion (Syrian Orthodox). My son on the other hand is a walking tattoo from the top of the head down to his feet. Also a rock/Alt musician and a barber but has for all intents and purposes left the church, at least in deed if not in name. Me, I have no opinions on it one way or the other. I'd put my morals up against any religious layman out there and would bet mine are equal to, if not better than, the vast majority.

Re: the last post. We just celebrated our 41st Anniversary on the 24 of Sept. My kids are now 35 & 40 and I have 4 grandchildren between them (Daughter with two sons and my Son with two daughters). Assimilation successful I think. LOL
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by Wd40 » Mon, 14 Oct 2024 8:34 am

smoulder wrote:
Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:51 pm
So it really depends. You would think that those of us who are in mixed marriages had to make major adjustments, but I think that most of us are easily adjustable and we managed to find common ground despite different cultures. At least those of us who have been together for long enough. I have heard of mixed marriages that are not so successful and largely it's because they are unable to bridge the cultural differences in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing. I agree that luck is a big factor. I think the key is what you have also mentioned in this paragraph that you are "adjustable" and that mix marriages fail when people are unable to bridge the differences.

Our life is already more or less settled now. But think about the next generation, I think Indian parents who have kept their lineage clean until now, hope to provide their kids with an environment where they can continue it, ofcourse the kids can break it, it is their life. But mix marriages just add so many additional variables for things to go wrong.

As parents who want to mitigate that risk for their kids hence, to @malcontent 's point, stay with close knit communities, so even if they fall in love it is within the community, for easier compatibility.

In our case we are the perfect template Indian family. Same caste same language(which is spoken by a small minority in India), 1 daughter, we speak our mother tongue at home. Our cuisine is same as what my mom and my wife's mom used to cook. My wife takes care of house and my daughter and I takes care of the finances. It is a happy coexistence.

My brother married a Dutch girl in UK, he is completely opposite of me, he was a rebel from childhood. They have no kids, they are happy with their life and my parents, after the initial resistance accepted the marriage, but my brother and his wife live in the UK, it is unlikely that he will ever be able to come back to India.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by smoulder » Mon, 14 Oct 2024 9:44 am

@Wd40 , the factors you mentioned are mostly applicable to smaller towns in India and mostly relate to what other people think of mixed marriages rather than the actual issues themselves. These things aren't major factors in larger cities. So they are non issues.

Like I mentioned, I actually failed in a marriage with a fellow Indian from India. I know of other people who are just like you - in arranged marriages, both partners from pretty much the same background. Unlike your case, they ended in divorce.

Marriage is a lot more complex than just people of similar cultural backgrounds.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by malcontent » Mon, 14 Oct 2024 12:17 pm

Could not agree more on marriage being complicated, and challenging… but also rewarding and fulfilling too.

To me, common values are far more important in a successful marriage than having a common culture.
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows - Epictetus

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by casey5047 » Mon, 14 Oct 2024 9:37 pm

I’ve never been more convinced that India needs its own cultural revolution. Classes / castes, religion, language - erase or reform it all.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:13 pm

casey5047 wrote:
Mon, 14 Oct 2024 9:37 pm
I’ve never been more convinced that India needs its own cultural revolution. Classes / castes, religion, language - erase or reform it all.
Sadly it's far too big both in area and in population and dialects and religions. It's sure as hell not going to happens in our lifetimes nor in our children's lifetimes. (And stay as one homogenous society/country). Only way would be to break it up like was done after WWII and have mass exoduses again.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by jalanjalan » Thu, 24 Oct 2024 11:24 am

Wd40 wrote:
Sun, 13 Oct 2024 8:47 pm
The kind of hoops you people have jumped to make the mixed marriage work is really commendable. I am too lazy and my expectations out of life are too low, for that kind of challenge.
Eh every marriage takes a lot of work! having a so-called mixed marriage may throw in some unique variables but it still comes down to temperament and family values. My family (4th Gen Canadian of central european extraction) and my spouse's family (Malayalee 4th gen Malayan) are more alike than different because they both value education (both Dads were teachers), and close family bonds. Both have zero connection to the "old countries" of our ancestors, apart from food.
We celebrate our 30th anniversary this December :)

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by smoulder » Thu, 24 Oct 2024 11:41 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Wed, 23 Oct 2024 10:13 pm
casey5047 wrote:
Mon, 14 Oct 2024 9:37 pm
I’ve never been more convinced that India needs its own cultural revolution. Classes / castes, religion, language - erase or reform it all.
Sadly it's far too big both in area and in population and dialects and religions. It's sure as hell not going to happens in our lifetimes nor in our children's lifetimes. (And stay as one homogenous society/country). Only way would be to break it up like was done after WWII and have mass exoduses again.
The way it was broken up after WW2 was done cynically and exacerbated the rifts that existed.The negative effects are being felt in the sub continent till today. So breaking it up is hardly the solution at this point in time.

The only thing that is having an effect is more money flowing in and removing people from poverty. Slowly. At least in what is today "India". Apparently not so much in the other 2 subcontinent countries.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 24 Oct 2024 4:44 pm

I wasn't passing judgement on it being a good or bad way. It's just that I don't see it happening any other way. :cry:
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by raptor_from_vietnam » Sat, 26 Oct 2024 10:34 am

Sorry to be blunt, but I think OP's husband is the problem here. If my wife has a chance to 3x her income in a country with transparent PR application, I would not stop her from doing so.

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Re: Missed So Many Oppurtunities

Post by Strong Eagle » Sun, 27 Oct 2024 1:48 am

raptor_from_vietnam wrote:
Sat, 26 Oct 2024 10:34 am
Sorry to be blunt, but I think OP's husband is the problem here. If my wife has a chance to 3x her income in a country with transparent PR application, I would not stop her from doing so.
Excellent. Back on topic.

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