Is Singapore Losing Its Appeal?

[abbby]

Singapore's getting very expensive to live in: rents, buying houses, taxes, gst, high inflation, but why are people still so attracted to living here or migrating here? I've had friends who have gotten out of here to Australia, US, Canada cos they just find living here so unbearably taxing.

[smoulder]

Singapore's getting very expensive to live in: rents, buying houses, taxes, gst, high inflation, but why are people still so attracted to living here or migrating here? I've had friends who have gotten out of here to Australia, US, Canada cos they just find living here so unbearably taxing.

Depends on who you ask. Everyone's situation and motivation will be different.

The only common thing you will see with immigrants through the ages and regardless of their culture and circumstances is that they all seek a better life. The lure is always opportunities to earn more money - some are real, some may be perceived.

[Wd40]

Singapore's getting very expensive to live in: rents, buying houses, taxes, gst, high inflation, but why are people still so attracted to living here or migrating here? I've had friends who have gotten out of here to Australia, US, Canada cos they just find living here so unbearably taxing.

I got my Singapore EP in just 1 day, back in 2009! Can you imagine? I just gave copies of documents I already had like my passport, my marksheets and job experience letters. Thats it!

It is just unbelievable now, when I look back how easy it was to just get in here.

I just read this news, UAE, which is supposed to another Singapore, in terms of business friendliness and efficiency, until now they took 30 days to process a visa! Only now they are reducing to 5 days, lol.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nr ... 320881.cms

Now imagine, all the western countries how incredibly difficult it is to get a work visa. US has a lottery system H1B. Europe has a labour test process, similar to the currently implemented jobs bank in Singapore.

After this, you need a ton of documentation, like all your documents need to be apostiled, you need to get police character certificate. I didnt have to do anything to recieve my Singapore work visa.

So, it is not that people are attracted to Singapore. Singapore was attracted to people. I didnt even know where Singapore was on the map, when I first received a call from a headhunter. I knew nothing about Singapore. I guess this is how most people came to Singapore. Not by planning.

[jalanjalan]

Singapore's getting very expensive to live in: rents, buying houses, taxes, gst, high inflation, but why are people still so attracted to living here or migrating here? I've had friends who have gotten out of here to Australia, US, Canada cos they just find living here so unbearably taxing.

Canada's housing, rental, taxes, food and fuel costs are pretty darn expensive. I couldn't afford to live there now, esp as a retiree.
I migrated from Canada to Singapore and I live pretty cheaply here. Depends on lifestyle.

[malcontent]

Singapore's getting very expensive to live in: rents, buying houses, taxes, gst, high inflation, but why are people still so attracted to living here or migrating here? I've had friends who have gotten out of here to Australia, US, Canada cos they just find living here so unbearably taxing.

Canada's housing, rental, taxes, food and fuel costs are pretty darn expensive. I couldn't afford to live there now, esp as a retiree.
I migrated from Canada to Singapore and I live pretty cheaply here. Depends on lifestyle.

I’ve always liked the saying “it’s not the high cost of living… it’s the cost of living high”

[midlet2013]

Singapore's getting very expensive to live in: rents, buying houses, taxes, gst, high inflation, but why are people still so attracted to living here or migrating here? I've had friends who have gotten out of here to Australia, US, Canada cos they just find living here so unbearably taxing.

Canada's housing, rental, taxes, food and fuel costs are pretty darn expensive. I couldn't afford to live there now, esp as a retiree.
I migrated from Canada to Singapore and I live pretty cheaply here. Depends on lifestyle.

I’ve always liked the saying “it’s not the high cost of living… it’s the cost of living high”

While this is true, the way Singapore is designed is highly tempting to live the high life. Everywhere I see ,it's all about shopping, malls, eating, traveling. Tempting the shit out of people.

One needs a strong will to resist. I feel it's a lot easier to live cheaper in many other countries. Although , I am sure there are people who can resist.

[Wd40]

Just watching this video about Dubai, it is so similar to Singapore. At one point he tells, if your kids grow up in Dubai, Dubai is so safe, that the kids will grow up thinking the whole world is like that, and it will be a problem for them when they travel abroad to places, like England

He also tells a couple of other interesting things like how Europe likes to delve into its past, but places like Dubai and Singapore are about building the future, also about how the sun and sunshine makes a positive impact on your life and how the tax savings can really add up and make you financially independent quicker.The rules are strict about Dubai but as long as you are civilized, you are fine. I just feel, all these things are true about Singapore too. I just didnt think about this in this way and now after watching the video, I feel nice about Singapore, we just take things for granted.

[malcontent]

Just watching this video about Dubai, it is so similar to Singapore. At one point he tells, if your kids grow up in Dubai, Dubai is so safe, that the kids will grow up thinking the whole world is like that, and it will be a problem for them when they travel abroad to places, like England

More and more I get the impression that people here believe that being in a country like the U.S., they would be dodging bullets around every corner. Fortunately I have had the opportunity to travel frequently to the U.S. and have spent a lot of time in the “mean streets” of Chicago. Do bad things happen? Sure. Has anything bad happened to me? No.

I walk the streets and take the L train everytime I visit. Once I even took the L after midnight for a hour long ride. I’m not supposed to do that, but I just don’t care. Although a little dicey, nothing happened. Incidentally, one Indian guy on our team enjoyed strolling around Chicago at night and did it every day for many weeks when we met there. Nothing happened to him either. In fact, nothing has happened to any of us, and it’s usually at least 12 of us who travel there and meet.

[Strong Eagle]

Dubai may be safe on the streets but it is a long way from safe in other ways. If you lose your job and can't make your car payments, you either get your ass out of the country pronto or risk debtor's prison. Violate the country's draconian laws and end up in jail. Women run the risk of sexual assault. Terroristic crimes against Americans, in particular, are much more probable than in the USA or Singapore. Gay people are illegal. If you do get arrested, expect a kangaroo court like trial.

Get pregnant outside of marriage and go to jail.

Just watching this video about Dubai, it is so similar to Singapore. At one point he tells, if your kids grow up in Dubai, Dubai is so safe, that the kids will grow up thinking the whole world is like that, and it will be a problem for them when they travel abroad to places, like England

He also tells a couple of other interesting things like how Europe likes to delve into its past, but places like Dubai and Singapore are about building the future, also about how the sun and sunshine makes a positive impact on your life and how the tax savings can really add up and make you financially independent quicker.The rules are strict about Dubai but as long as you are civilized, you are fine. I just feel, all these things are true about Singapore too. I just didnt think about this in this way and now after watching the video, I feel nice about Singapore, we just take things for granted.

[NYY1]

Again, I'm not sure what people expect out of a global city / the top few cities in any country. People go to these places because there is a concentration of talent and opportunities. It has never been cheap for a typical person (even above average earners).

Compared to other Tier 1 cities, the cost of a car is one thing that really stands out here (this cost can also be avoided here). With respect to housing, on a psf basis, it is expensive here, and in many other places you can get more space (some may equate this to better quality of life). But on a total check basis, housing in many of those other places is just as costly (if not more).

Of course, other countries allow one to move to lower cost locations, if desired. Lifestyle and opportunity set is often quite different as well. Understand how the opportunity set here has evolved over the years and none of this is surprising (if you pick truly comparable situations).

Restating what others have said, irrespective of what you make, there's a way to save a lot or be broke at the end of the month. Pretty sure that at every income level, there are households making substantially less that figure out how to make things work. May not be able to post online where you live, go on holiday, etc, but it's certainly possible (these people may even be happier than those who are subconsciously on the social status treadmill).

[malcontent]

I recently did a comparison of entry level wages at my employer in the U.S. vs SG for the same job, base pay is S$100k in the U.S. versus S$70k here annually (including 13 month). And sure, the tax savings narrows the gap a little, but doesn’t come close to eliminating it (especially if you max out your tax advantaged accounts like 401(k), IRA, HSA, etc). So there is no question that you get lower pay here and have a higher cost of living.

This hasn’t changed since I first moved here in 1996 as a recent grad. I went from renting my own apartment and owning a car in the U.S. , to renting a room and taking the bus here… the lifestyle difference was highly tangible. If it were not for my SO, no way I would have stayed. But there were two lifestyle improvements: 1. eating out 2-3x more often here than in the U.S. without spending significantly more, and 2. having hired help to wash my clothes, clean my room, change bedding, etc. - included in the rent.

Those who grow up with parents here and can stay with them in the early years won’t feel the same pinch; and if the socially engineered path of forming a family nucleus and getting a BTO is followed, they might perceive that it’s quite appealing to live here… but you have to be a round peg to fit.

[Wd40]

I recently did a comparison of entry level wages at my employer in the U.S. vs SG for the same job, base pay is S$100k in the U.S. versus S$70k here annually (including 13 month). And sure, the tax savings narrows the gap a little, but doesn’t come close to eliminating it (especially if you max out your tax advantaged accounts like 401(k), IRA, HSA, etc). So there is no question that you get lower pay here and have a higher cost of living.

This hasn’t changed since I first moved here in 1996 as a recent grad. I went from renting my own apartment and owning a car in the U.S. , to renting a room and taking the bus here… the lifestyle difference was highly tangible. If it were not for my SO, no way I would have stayed. But there were two lifestyle improvements: 1. eating out 2-3x more often here than in the U.S. without spending significantly more, and 2. having hired help to wash my clothes, clean my room, change bedding, etc. - included in the rent.

Those who grow up with parents here and can stay with them in the early years won’t feel the same pinch; and if the socially engineered path of forming a family nucleus and getting a BTO is followed, they might perceive that it’s quite appealing to live here… but you have to be a round peg to fit.

I think any comparison with US, most countries would lose out. US is by far the best country in terms of opportunities. But also US is one of the most difficult countries to immigrate to.

I think most comparisons are with countries like Canada, Australia, Europe, UK etc.

[NYY1]

I recently did a comparison of entry level wages at my employer in the U.S. vs SG for the same job, base pay is S$100k in the U.S. versus S$70k here annually (including 13 month). And sure, the tax savings narrows the gap a little, but doesn’t come close to eliminating it (especially if you max out your tax advantaged accounts like 401(k), IRA, HSA, etc). So there is no question that you get lower pay here and have a higher cost of living.

This hasn’t changed since I first moved here in 1996 as a recent grad. I went from renting my own apartment and owning a car in the U.S. , to renting a room and taking the bus here… the lifestyle difference was highly tangible. If it were not for my SO, no way I would have stayed. But there were two lifestyle improvements: 1. eating out 2-3x more often here than in the U.S. without spending significantly more, and 2. having hired help to wash my clothes, clean my room, change bedding, etc. - included in the rent.

Those who grow up with parents here and can stay with them in the early years won’t feel the same pinch; and if the socially engineered path of forming a family nucleus and getting a BTO is followed, they might perceive that it’s quite appealing to live here… but you have to be a round peg to fit.

Compare here to a US Coastal hub (cost of living, people share apartments/rooms out of college, etc) and things will be closer together. The upside there is still higher (absolute ceiling and number of opportunities), but it's a more relevant comparison (IMO).

[NYY1]

Compare here to a US Coastal hub (cost of living, people share apartments/rooms out of college, etc) and things will be closer together. The upside there is still higher (absolute ceiling and number of opportunities), but it's a more relevant comparison (IMO).

Chatted with two people here in their late-20s / early-30s today. Both have probably quadrupled or quintupled their starting salaries. In which case, a comparison of their first year earnings/costs vs the same in other locations is probably, at least in many cases, pretty much irrelevant.

The point is initial salary vs. costs is only a fraction of the equation. Probably good to consider what your opportunity set is 5 years, 10 years, etc out. Many cities that have high costs have a (relatively) higher opportunity set too.

Of course, there are many very good jobs (in all locations) that don't offer this type of ramp (for example, a professor, which is about climbing the ranks). In which case, initial pay vs. cost may be quite similar to what things look like years down the road (relatively speaking, i.e. good earnings and low costs, good earnings but high costs, etc).

Likely, there are some other things in the works here that, if lucky, could follow the path of some prior industries (opportunity set expands by multiples in a short period of time). Give it another 5 - 10 years and see what happens...

[malcontent]

Compare here to a US Coastal hub (cost of living, people share apartments/rooms out of college, etc) and things will be closer together. The upside there is still higher (absolute ceiling and number of opportunities), but it's a more relevant comparison (IMO).

Chatted with two people here in their late-20s / early-30s today. Both have probably quadrupled or quintupled their starting salaries. In which case, a comparison of their first year earnings/costs vs the same in other locations is probably, at least in many cases, pretty much irrelevant.

The point is initial salary vs. costs is only a fraction of the equation. Probably good to consider what your opportunity set is 5 years, 10 years, etc out. Many cities that have high costs have a (relatively) higher opportunity set too.

Of course, there are many very good jobs (in all locations) that don't offer this type of ramp (for example, a professor, which is about climbing the ranks). In which case, initial pay vs. cost may be quite similar to what things look like years down the road (relatively speaking, i.e. good earnings and low costs, good earnings but high costs, etc).

Likely, there are some other things in the works here that, if lucky, could follow the path of some prior industries (opportunity set expands by multiples in a short period of time). Give it another 5 - 10 years and see what happens...

I’ve heard fresh grads on the two coasts are now seeing starting salaries that are 6-figures in USD… that is about double what you’d typically see here.

Cost of living on the two coasts is higher though, certainly in California where I’ve been pricing homes recently, just about any decent home in any decent neighborhood is going for around USD800psf, so we are talking close to US$2m for a decent size place… and my son has been pricing used vehicles, he found quite a few nice Mustang convertibles, less than 4 years old for going for around $20k.

Honestly, if someone had the opportunity, it’d be better to start out their career somewhere like the U.S. and then move here only after 6-8 years, to avoid suffering those fresh grade wages and maybe gain better experience too.