Renouncing Citizenship with NS Issue

[sundaymorningstaple]

Wasabi88, I'll pipe in now. Only to let you know I've been following. MS & I came from two different backgrounds. He brought his boys out and having had many years of dealing with the Sg Gov't, from the Military and Civil service sectors when it comes to how to resolve or minimize damage, He is the go to. MS came on board several years after I did but prior to that I'd been doing heaps of research having gotten married to a local lass and had two children (one of each). As I'm a Yank, back in those days having a child born overseas (e.g., Sg), if one parent was a US Citizen they were issued a US Birth Certificate (for a US citizen born abroad) as it emblazoned across the top of the BC. This means my children had birth certificates as full citizen by birth in two countries and had two valid birth certificates (Neither BC trumped the other one). The citizenship by birth for the US has subsequently been changed but years after both of my children were born. This made my son obligated to do both NS here and the legal requirement to register with the US Selective Service (which was mothballed after VN in 1975 - not done away with but mothballed so could be used again if necessary). Back in those days I wasn't sure if I was staying here or going back to the US so I needed to keep all avenues open. I also wanted my son to do military service - I'm a Nam Vet - but I didn't want him in a war that wasn't his - as was my case. Doing NS was the safest route, considering the close ties with the US, do NS here and know if ever push comes to shove, Sg still has a US ally.

So, heaps of research was done (without the internet - not an easy task back then, and probably more confusing now due to different interpretations. So my knowledge was more pre-NS rather than how to get out of it or repair damage already done. MS was my mentor in that sphere and for that this board owes him a huge debt of gratitude. I add where I can but as said, I know where my strength is and I know he is the font of knowledge gained from within the system. This was definitely his bailiwick, so I wanted to pull back rather than possibly confuse the issue further.

You still have a huge decision to make especially considering you have a full family in Aus. Keep us posted on what you decide to do and update as and when you can as you like a lot who came before you, all add to our collective database of knowledge. This way you also help to pay it forward.
We all wish you good luck.
sms

NB: My son did his NS in the Sg Navy. He's a business owner today and is married to a local girl as well, opted for SGC @ 21 and has given me two granddaughters. Strange things happens. All the research and now 42 years later I find myself still here in SG. LOL

[Wasabi88]

Hi SMS, thanks for your response. It’s great that this forum has you both to help guide others who are in a sort of ‘grey’ area with this topic. I’m glad I plucked the courage to post.

I will take a bit more time to come to a decision but I’m leaning a fair amount towards making an attempt to resolve the matter in hopes I can put this behind me and be able to visit SG on the odd occasion (or not have to worry about transit).

Yes, should I take the plunge I am more than happy to update this forum

[Mad Scientist]

W88
I have to be careful on what I am writing as these are not set in stone
I have not replied to all PM and questions for quite sometime now. I hated it as these PM always wants special favors etc... You never know who you are dealing with
So happened , I just came back from a year in Africa and was twiddling my thumbs, I just happen to jump into the forum.

What I do know were based on my knowledge and past historical events and encounters.
The skeleton guidelines are there to follow. It is about 95% correct
The tinkering will be on the circumstances and the overall check on the individual application
It can go either way
If you intend to contact them to resolve this issue, they will want you to come in person .
You will get a standard SOP reply.
This is where your life hangs in the balance

I will make a bet , you will get a fine based on what you told us but again strange things had happened before

[Wasabi88]

Hi MS, thanks for the additional information. Have noted your information is for guidance only and things may have changed with how they handle these situations. Feels like this has been fairly quiet as of recent years given I haven't found too may articles post 2015-2020.

Needing to find the outcome in person was what I was afraid of, but thought that might be the case. That does change things a lot for me as an outcome that involves custodial punishment is out of the question. I am wondering how envoy91 determined he only needed to pay a fine. It didn't sound like he was keen to go back and risk jail time either.

Not sure if you may know, just curious - Is the requirement for in person attendance due to every case needing to be presented to the court? i.e. there is no discretion from the CMPB/MINDEF if they wanted to issue a fine only, and only if they wanted to lay more charges, it is escalated to the court?

[Mad Scientist]

Read

You have to attend the interview in person. Only when you are there, once the office has taken your statement and you surrendering your passport, you will be either release pending sentencing from the court or locked up prior sentencing depending on your flight risk
Having a lawyer helps but it only to mitigate your sentencing lesser . That does mean it is sure win case. You are just throwing money down the drain in my POV
No one has from my memory once you defaults

From the piano man to the bamboo kid right across the crazy asian dude and the thai jungle boy no one can escape these. Some like you(maybe) surrender themselves due family ties in Singapore or doing the right thing. Some don't give a hoot and give Singapore a miss

There is no such thing as contacting them from overseas and checking what will the charges against you. They want you in the net. Only then charges will be laid

Years ago there was this boy of a white horse did a runner to another country for seven years. We hauled his ar*e back once we came to know his whereabouts just to make an example so that everyone toes the line

I sensed that you are trying to find ways to mitigate this liability. As I said, these guidelines from GKS to TCH till now we have tighten the noose that you will be lucky to get away scot free

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... aulting-on
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... r-17-years

[Mad Scientist]

Read

You have to attend the interview in person. Only when you are there, once the office has taken your statement and you surrendering your passport, you will be either release pending sentencing from the court or locked up prior sentencing depending on your flight risk
Having a lawyer helps but it is only to mitigate your sentencing lesser . That does not mean it is sure win case. You are just throwing money down the drain in my POV
No one has,from my memory, once you defaults

From the piano man to the bamboo kid right across the crazy asian dude and the thai jungle boy no one can escape these. Some like you(maybe) surrender themselves due family ties in Singapore or doing the right thing. Some don't give a hoot and give Singapore a miss

There is no such thing as contacting them from overseas and checking what will the charges be against you. They want you in the net. Only then charges will be laid

Years ago there was this boy of a white horse did a runner to another country for seven years. We hauled his ar*e back once we came to know his whereabouts just to make an example so that everyone toes the line

I sensed that you are trying to find ways to mitigate this liability. As I said, these guidelines from GKS to TCH till now we have tighten the noose that you will be lucky to get away scot free

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... aulting-on
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... r-17-years

[Wasabi88]

Thanks for confirming the in-person requirement MS, admittedly it was wishful thinking on my part.

Given all the information received I concede its not a worthwhile endevour, despite best intentions. Ultimately my family pays the price of a bad outcome and putting them at risk feels more irresponsible than clearing this up. I do wish I had known to take action much earlier.

I'll be keeping tabs on the landscape should things change, and will update this forum for posterity.

Thanks very much.

[Mad Scientist]

T

[Mad Scientist]

Therein the Third Nationality with Deed Poll comes to play

[envoy91]

Hi MS, thanks for the additional information. Have noted your information is for guidance only and things may have changed with how they handle these situations. Feels like this has been fairly quiet as of recent years given I haven't found too may articles post 2015-2020.

Needing to find the outcome in person was what I was afraid of, but thought that might be the case. That does change things a lot for me as an outcome that involves custodial punishment is out of the question. I am wondering how envoy91 determined he only needed to pay a fine. It didn't sound like he was keen to go back and risk jail time either.

Not sure if you may know, just curious - Is the requirement for in person attendance due to every case needing to be presented to the court? i.e. there is no discretion from the CMPB/MINDEF if they wanted to issue a fine only, and only if they wanted to lay more charges, it is escalated to the court?

CMPB decided I would have to pay a fine after ‘reviewing my case’. I did not attend anything in person (nor was I asked to), and I don’t know how they decided on a fine - I was just told after a few months that was the decision to resolve my ‘offence’. Context to my situation was provided in my renounciation forms and that was it. I wasn’t asked for any further information.

I do know of another case where someone tried the same and was told they had to return to resolve their offence. However, their situation was different to mine (in a negative way for them)

[PNGMK]

Hi MS, thanks for the additional information. Have noted your information is for guidance only and things may have changed with how they handle these situations. Feels like this has been fairly quiet as of recent years given I haven't found too may articles post 2015-2020.

Needing to find the outcome in person was what I was afraid of, but thought that might be the case. That does change things a lot for me as an outcome that involves custodial punishment is out of the question. I am wondering how envoy91 determined he only needed to pay a fine. It didn't sound like he was keen to go back and risk jail time either.

Not sure if you may know, just curious - Is the requirement for in person attendance due to every case needing to be presented to the court? i.e. there is no discretion from the CMPB/MINDEF if they wanted to issue a fine only, and only if they wanted to lay more charges, it is escalated to the court?

CMPB decided I would have to pay a fine after ‘reviewing my case’. I did not attend anything in person (nor was I asked to), and I don’t know how they decided on a fine - I was just told after a few months that was the decision to resolve my ‘offence’. Context to my situation was provided in my renounciation forms and that was it. I wasn’t asked for any further information.

I do know of another case where someone tried the same and was told they had to return to resolve their offence. However, their situation was different to mine (in a negative way for them)

Thanks for the feedback.

[Mad Scientist]

Envoy
I am intrigued by this. Can you let us know when CMPB decided on this form of penalty?

[envoy91]

Envoy
I am intrigued by this. Can you let us know when CMPB decided on this form of penalty?

This was around a year ago or so. The other case I know of (who got asked to return) was very recent