PR through Chinese nationality or highest earner?

[jaymoren]

Hello everyone,

Our family applied for PR last year and got rejected. We appealed within 2 months, and were rejected again very quickly - within a few weeks.
- Myself (main applicant): French, EP, 36 this year, 6-digit salary plus dividends, running a small IT firm
- My spouse: Chinese, 33 this year, earns about $3K a month
- Two boys 6 and 10 who go to an International School. Included in the application of course.
- Been in Singapore for over 4 years. Our goal is to settle here permanently hence PR application.

I resorted to using an agency for our first application as I was confused about a lot of things and wanted straight answers (little good did that do). I knew that using an agent could be a waste of money and that it wasn't actually increasing chances, but it was offering me the peace of mind I needed to avoid screwing up documents, translations, legalizations, and whatnot. Based on my readings on this forum, it seems that was largely a mistake, so... lesson learned.

I have been told a lot of things by many different people. Literally everyone told me that we had a good profile and we would have good chances to get approved, especially since we're including our 2 boys in the application. But what do people really know?

Half the people told me that it'd be best to apply through myself as I'm the highest earner and on EP. The other half told me that we should apply under my wife, who is Chinese, and that in terms of race quotas we'd have a much greater chance of passing the filter.

The agency assured me with 100% certainty that the family is considered as a 'unit' and that if I apply under myself, it'll be considered as a caucasian application / part of the caucasian quotas, even though my wife is Chinese and children are Eurasian.

If you reverse that logic, if we apply under my wife, we'll be considered a 'Chinese unit' so it'd make sense. But since my wife earns a lot less, I don't see it working for us.

Right now my strategy is to keep trying the way I did (but without an agency the next time) and keep trying to improve our situation and further our integration into the country. Maybe one day it'll work? From what I gather most people don't get approved on the first attempt, but there's little known about what causes your application to go from Rejected to Approved the next time over.

The main underlying question is, should we keep applying under my own profile, or should we give it a try under my wife's - considering the ethnic quotas and earnings?

[jalanjalan]

You haven't been here that long (only 4 years). I'd say wait a while, and be sure this is where you want to settle. Are you thinking of SG as your forever home, as in, give up your citizenships and become Singaporean?

As far as ethnicity goes, you are what you are, and how ICA counts that is really something of a deliberate mystery, so I'd say just ignore it and hope for the best on that score. I think it makes more sense for the highest earner to lead the application.

Yes agencies are a waste of money, and ICA explicitly does not support or endorse them.
source: https://www.ica.gov.sg/public-education ... l-entities
You don't need an agency, just follow the instructions on the application. bonne chance

[Lisafuller]

Hello everyone,

Our family applied for PR last year and got rejected. We appealed within 2 months, and were rejected again very quickly - within a few weeks.
- Myself (main applicant): French, EP, 36 this year, 6-digit salary plus dividends, running a small IT firm
- My spouse: Chinese, 33 this year, earns about $3K a month
- Two boys 6 and 10 who go to an International School. Included in the application of course.
- Been in Singapore for over 4 years. Our goal is to settle here permanently hence PR application.

I resorted to using an agency for our first application as I was confused about a lot of things and wanted straight answers (little good did that do). I knew that using an agent could be a waste of money and that it wasn't actually increasing chances, but it was offering me the peace of mind I needed to avoid screwing up documents, translations, legalizations, and whatnot. Based on my readings on this forum, it seems that was largely a mistake, so... lesson learned.

I have been told a lot of things by many different people. Literally everyone told me that we had a good profile and we would have good chances to get approved, especially since we're including our 2 boys in the application. But what do people really know?

Half the people told me that it'd be best to apply through myself as I'm the highest earner and on EP. The other half told me that we should apply under my wife, who is Chinese, and that in terms of race quotas we'd have a much greater chance of passing the filter.

The agency assured me with 100% certainty that the family is considered as a 'unit' and that if I apply under myself, it'll be considered as a caucasian application / part of the caucasian quotas, even though my wife is Chinese and children are Eurasian.

If you reverse that logic, if we apply under my wife, we'll be considered a 'Chinese unit' so it'd make sense. But since my wife earns a lot less, I don't see it working for us.

Right now my strategy is to keep trying the way I did (but without an agency the next time) and keep trying to improve our situation and further our integration into the country. Maybe one day it'll work? From what I gather most people don't get approved on the first attempt, but there's little known about what causes your application to go from Rejected to Approved the next time over.

The main underlying question is, should we keep applying under my own profile, or should we give it a try under my wife's - considering the ethnic quotas and earnings?

Doesn't matter how you apply, you are what you are. What was the basis for your appeal?

[Lisafuller]

You haven't been here that long (only 4 years). I'd say wait a while, and be sure this is where you want to settle. Are you thinking of SG as your forever home, as in, give up your citizenships and become Singaporean?

As far as ethnicity goes, you are what you are, and how ICA counts that is really something of a deliberate mystery, so I'd say just ignore it and hope for the best on that score. I think it makes more sense for the highest earner to lead the application.

Yes agencies are a waste of money, and ICA explicitly does not support or endorse them.
source: https://www.ica.gov.sg/public-education ... l-entities
You don't need an agency, just follow the instructions on the application. bonne chance

Right, agencies are an absolute scam, and very expensive!

[hopeislife]

Yes, you have been here for just 4 years, while there are many other people who have been here for more than a decade and not yet granted PR. You don't seem to have understood the difficulties of getting a PR. You have not mentioned the citizenship of your kids, if they are french then your chances are even harder. Just because your wife becomes the main applicant, it does not mean your family will be seen as a 'chinese unit'. You have to think is it really meaningful to consider a family as 'chinese' when only the mother is chinese, with a french father and two eurasian kids?

Like JalanJalan has said, it is upto ica on how to consider the main applicant. Also, those days when high salary and more male kids being the requirement for PR are long gone. There are even families approved with 2 daughters. Also, being in IT is a bit of disadvantage, unless it is in a very in demand field and your firm can give employment to more locals. However, it looks like ica has not seen your firm as a positive, as it has rejected your appeal less than 2 months.

The best you can do is like you have said, just stay longer and contribute and apply. Don't be surprised if it takes a decade as it is pretty normal for other's category.

[MOCHS]

I was gonna have a crude response about the sheer audacity that you think having a Chinese wife gives you an advantage but since you’re new here, I’ll phrase it nicely.

Unless your Chinese spouse is a Singaporean, having just a PRC wife holds no water. (Having a Singaporean spouse typically means willingness to sink roots here due to stronger family ties to Singapore)

The quota is still gonna be 1 Chinese and 3 Others regardless if you or her are the main applicant. Having her as main applicant is NOT going to magically turn the quota into 4 Chinese. Unless someone is able to say otherwise but I don’t think an ICA staff will share such info.

You are aware PR is a stepping stone to citizenship and your sons have to serve NS?

[the observer]

Irrelevant or maybe it is.

https://mothership.sg/2023/06/spore-gov ... -constant/

Speaking on Singapore's immigration policy and its importance in helping to maintain the CMIO percentages, Shanmugam stated that the government is "publicly committed to keeping our [CMIO] percentages more or less constant".

However, Shanmugam shared that the percentages are not maintained to keep the Chinese community percentage at 70 per cent, but the main community concerned about immigration is the non-Chinese community.

He shared that when he has dialogues with senior Malay community leaders, the main question he gets is whether the government would set the community percentage to 14 to 15 per cent.

[jaymoren]

I was gonna have a crude response about the sheer audacity that you think having a Chinese wife gives you an advantage but since you’re new here, I’ll phrase it nicely.

I am certainly not new here despite registering recently, I've been reading this forum for years. I'm coming here with an open question based on what I've been told by multiple people. I do not believe I should be treated like a criminal for asking. Just coming here for friendly advice

You are aware PR is a stepping stone to citizenship and your sons have to serve NS?

It's a bit insulting that you would ask that, but I'll let that one pass.

One of stories I have heard:
- family w/French husband and Chinese spouse (similar)
- two kids (similar)
- applied 3 times under the husband, rejected
- the 4th time over, they applied under the wife, and got approved

Did anyone hear of similar experiences?

[jaymoren]

Also, being in IT is a bit of disadvantage, unless it is in a very in demand field and your firm can give employment to more locals. However, it looks like ica has not seen your firm as a positive, as it has rejected your appeal less than 2 months.

Thanks for your kind and considerate reply. Has there been any indications that having my firm hire more locals could give me an edge? I have asked this to various people (including the agency) and I heard different things. The agency told me it was not going to be taken into consideration.

[MOCHS]

It's a bit insulting that you would ask that, but I'll let that one pass.

One of stories I have heard:
- family w/French husband and Chinese spouse (similar)
- two kids (similar)
- applied 3 times under the husband, rejected
- the 4th time over, they applied under the wife, and got approved

Did anyone hear of similar experiences?

We have numerous applicants coming to the forum thinking their application is stellar and that they deserve PR. So excuse us if some members feel a bit jaded.

You have French passport and I assume your sons are of that nationality. The likelihood of giving up French citizenship is low so ICA would take that into consideration too.

There are plenty of first generation PRs who get PR but when it comes to their sons serving NS, they suddenly change their minds.

Also, one story is just that. One anecdote. Just because similar profile does not mean you are guaranteed to get PR. All applications are on case by case basis.

[jaymoren]

It's a bit insulting that you would ask that, but I'll let that one pass.

One of stories I have heard:
- family w/French husband and Chinese spouse (similar)
- two kids (similar)
- applied 3 times under the husband, rejected
- the 4th time over, they applied under the wife, and got approved

Did anyone hear of similar experiences?

We have numerous applicants coming to the forum thinking their application is stellar and that they deserve PR. So excuse us if some members feel a bit jaded.

You have French passport and I assume your sons are of that nationality. The likelihood of giving up French citizenship is low so ICA would take that into consideration too.

There are plenty of first generation PRs who get PR but when it comes to their sons serving NS, they suddenly change their minds.

Also, one story is just that. One anecdote. Just because similar profile does not mean you are guaranteed to get PR. All applications are on case by case basis.

I appreciate that you took the time to explain your thoughts with a kind reply - I see where you're going, and of course believe you are entirely correct.

But obviously we are all left to speculate based on personal experience and hearsay. That's what this entire subforum is for, after all.

Anyhow, if anyone reading this thread is genuinely curious about my particular case and what's led me to consider PR, here it is. In spite of having lived here only 4 and a half years, I've been coming to Singapore for over a decade for a variety of reasons - and I eventually chose to move my firm from Hong Kong to here, and reside here full time. Yes, my wife and I both strongly believe that PR is the first path to citizenship. We love this country, its people, its values. Our whole life is here now. I haven't been back to my country since 2018 before I moved here, and I don't miss it a bit. It's not something you can really say in a PR application, so I guess it can't hurt to say it here, since I'm being asked

I realize 4 years here isn't very long when it took some people 10+ years to obtain their PR. On the other hand, from personal experience, I have seen people for whom it took less than 2 years. My close friends from China moved to SG around the same time as us and got their PR within 2 years, on their first application. Their profile was very similar to ours in terms of age, skills, work, (but with one boy instead of two) and the 3 of them were Chinese citizens.

Last point I wanted to make: as much as everyone here hates agencies, understandably, I don't think everything they say is necessarily bogus. Of course, the main thing you have to keep in mind is that they'll tell you what you want to hear, to get you to purchase their expensive packages. But beyond that, does that mean everything they say is BS?

I was mentioning earlier that our agency assured us with 100% certainty that an application is considered as a 'unit' (main applicant+all dependends) under the nationality and race of the main applicant. Consequently, selecting the main applicant based on the nationality/race would make sense I believe. Some people here are saying this is untrue - I'm inclined to believe them, because this would be convenient for me, but my personal experience tends to prove what the agency said is true.

So here I am, asking whether people have had similar experiences, or if they have any indication towards disproving the agency's claim.

[jalanjalan]

We all get what you're trying to do - qualify under the "Chinese" category vs the "Other" category. We're just pointing out that ICA isn't bodoh. Also, in SG, kids normally follow the ethnicity of their fathers, though this is shifting a little to combo ethnicities.

Immigration agencies know as much as we do, via anecdotal evidence. There are 2 problems with this - 1. they are reverse engineering something which is largely a black box therefore prone to misinterpretation and 2. criteria change, at unknown intervals. Agency staff do not know the inner workings of ICA, and even if they did, someone is breaking the law (look up Official Secrets Act). I would not trust my personal documents to such entities. In short, you're getting the same level of expertise here for free that you'd pay (i dunno how much) to an agency for. Up to you lah.

ps. I got PR and SC just by filling in the forms my ownself. No agency.

[hopeislife]

It is pretty common for our mind to assume that if one family that got PR is quite similar to my family, then I will get it too. But the word 'similar' is the real problem here. Let me decode the example you have given.

One of stories I have heard:
- family w/French husband and Chinese spouse (similar)
- two kids (similar)
- applied 3 times under the husband, rejected
- the 4th time over, they applied under the wife, and got approved

Did anyone hear of similar experiences?

Yes, the family structure and nationality could be similar to yours, but a lot of other factors like their occupation, family background, kids schooling and length of stay could be different. I dont think the family that you quoted got approved in their 4th attempt just because they applied under chinese wife. Most likely when they applied for the 4th time they might have already completed longer length of stay, say for example 7 to 8 yrs. Their first 3 applications could have been mainly rejected due to shorter stay of few years like you. No matter who the main applicant is, the race of individual family members are not going to be changed as they have to account the number of prs given to 'others'. In short, what i am saying, is that it is just a coincidence for you to think that the other family got its pr when applying under chinese spouse as main applicant, while in reality it can even be possible that they met the requirement of 'longer stay' in their 4th application and thus given pr. The outcome might have been the same if it was applied under french husband.

[hopeislife]

Yes, my wife and I both strongly believe that PR is the first path to citizenship. We love this country, its people, its values. Our whole life is here now. I haven't been back to my country since 2018 before I moved here, and I don't miss it a bit. It's not something you can really say in a PR application, so I guess it can't hurt to say it here, since I'm being asked

Ofcourse, everybody who applies have the same liking for sg like you. There are many who have not been back to their country for a decade. If you really like it so much, then should also have a patience to stay here longer, instead of wanting pr within 10yrs.

I realize 4 years here isn't very long when it took some people 10+ years to obtain their PR. On the other hand, from personal experience, I have seen people for whom it took less than 2 years. My close friends from China moved to SG around the same time as us and got their PR within 2 years, on their first application. Their profile was very similar to ours in terms of age, skills, work, (but with one boy instead of two) and the 3 of them were Chinese citizens.

You say your chinese friends got pr in less than 2 years? Well you have the answer in your own sentence. They are chinese which means they are of preferred group. Unless you are chinese or malaysian you cant expect to get pr within 5yrs in most times. For other races, expect to wait for 5 to 10years.

Last point I wanted to make: as much as everyone here hates agencies, understandably, I don't think everything they say is necessarily bogus. Of course, the main thing you have to keep in mind is that they'll tell you what you want to hear, to get you to purchase their expensive packages. But beyond that, does that mean everything they say is BS?

Ofcourse, i too personally feel that not all the facts that pr agencies say is bogus. Some of the information could be relevant and true. But you dont need an agency to know those facts and information. A simple forum like this is enough to know the various aspects influencing a pr application. May be most facts are just guesses but those pr agencies will do the same guesses but charge you insane amounts.

I was mentioning earlier that our agency assured us with 100% certainty that an application is considered as a 'unit' (main applicant+all dependends) under the nationality and race of the main applicant. Consequently, selecting the main applicant based on the nationality/race would make sense I believe. Some people here are saying this is untrue - I'm inclined to believe them, because this would be convenient for me, but my personal experience tends to prove what the agency said is true.

You can assume whatever you want as only ica knows answer for this. But one thing which i think will not be difficult for you to understand is that a pr application for a family of 4 under one chinese parent, DOES NOT equate to a family of 4 where all 4 individuals are chinese.

So here I am, asking whether people have had similar experiences, or if they have any indication towards disproving the agency's claim.

I think the best way to find out is applying for your family pr next time under your chinese spouse and you can educate us on the outcome. However, i personally feel it will take more than one attempt from now, but i am just a guesser.

[hopeislife]

Also, being in IT is a bit of disadvantage, unless it is in a very in demand field and your firm can give employment to more locals. However, it looks like ica has not seen your firm as a positive, as it has rejected your appeal less than 2 months.

Thanks for your kind and considerate reply. Has there been any indications that having my firm hire more locals could give me an edge? I have asked this to various people (including the agency) and I heard different things. The agency told me it was not going to be taken into consideration.

This is too upto anyone's guess. However, don't you feel that the ultimate aim of granting pr is for the welfare of sg and locals in some way? By that definition, since you own a firm, is it not meaningful to expect you ( a pr aspirant) to employ a major number of your staff as locals? No one can guarantee that employing more locals will get you a pr, but will support your application to some extent.