Discuss about where to live, renting a property, tenancy issues, property trend and property investment in Singapore.
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Wd40
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by Wd40 » Wed, 23 Aug 2023 5:43 pm
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 2:49 pm
Back when I was renting, I came across a lot of jokers who were hoping to get lucky and asking 40-50% above market rent. Don’t waste your time with these jokers, they are not serious about renting the unit and don’t deserve the time of day. I still remember the last joker I encountered, I told him straight to his face that the price he was asking is way too high and I told him what the market rent was for his place. He didn’t care, so I immediately left. There is no explanation or logic for these kinds of people, other than one — they are hoping to get lucky and are willing to wait long-long for a sucker to come along… if that ever happens. Even if this kind of landlord comes down to market level, you don’t want to be the one renting from them. They are just opportunists who will always look for a way to screw you.
It is not really about the outliers here. But almost all mass market 3 bedder HDBs are asking for $4200 and then they say they want small family.
I wonder how many people here earn so much to spend 4.2k on rent? DP holders are not even allowed to work, if they could they would bring in some income to offset the rent.
After COVID, due to Malaysian workers stuck here, a few houses managed to somehow bid up their asking rents. This just meant everyone now is asking the high rents. But people don't have those kind of salaries.
So I expect the houses to stay vacant and then the owners will reduce their expectations. I expect 3 bedder HDBs rent to come down to 3.5k from the current 4.2k
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malcontent
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by malcontent » Wed, 23 Aug 2023 6:02 pm
Wd40 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 5:43 pm
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 2:49 pm
Back when I was renting, I came across a lot of jokers who were hoping to get lucky and asking 40-50% above market rent. Don’t waste your time with these jokers, they are not serious about renting the unit and don’t deserve the time of day. I still remember the last joker I encountered, I told him straight to his face that the price he was asking is way too high and I told him what the market rent was for his place. He didn’t care, so I immediately left. There is no explanation or logic for these kinds of people, other than one — they are hoping to get lucky and are willing to wait long-long for a sucker to come along… if that ever happens. Even if this kind of landlord comes down to market level, you don’t want to be the one renting from them. They are just opportunists who will always look for a way to screw you.
It is not really about the outliers here. But almost all mass market 3 bedder HDBs are asking for $4200 and then they say they want small family.
I wonder how many people here earn so much to spend 4.2k on rent? DP holders are not even allowed to work, if they could they would bring in some income to offset the rent.
After COVID, due to Malaysian workers stuck here, a few houses managed to somehow bid up their asking rents. This just meant everyone now is asking the high rents. But people don't have those kind of salaries.
So I expect the houses to stay vacant and then the owners will reduce their expectations. I expect 3 bedder HDBs rent to come down to 3.5k from the current 4.2k
I believe many employers still provide some kind of housing allowance to foreign employees. This is the case for the vast majority of expats at my employer. Being a local expat (like me) is an outlier, and I’d say roughly half of the local expats at my employer are trailing spouses (already taken care of). This allowance should be a factor in rental rates here.
Back when I was renting, the first thing realtors used to ask me: what is your budget, to which I replied — I have no budget, my employer does not cover any of my housing expenses! They seemed shocked by my response, but that is the reality.
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NYY1
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by NYY1 » Wed, 23 Aug 2023 7:34 pm
One thing to keep in mind, over the last 10 years, rents (at least indices) are up about 3% per year, hardly a glaring amount (people forget there was a supply glut in 2013-2018). That may be peak-to-peak, but even going back to 2007 the CAGR is a little less than 4%.
Basically, due to the lead times and inability to reduce supply, this is a market that is never in balance (one side always has the upper hand). After 2008 and 2013, rents fall 20% - 25%, although the rate of decline was quite different in the two cases. Given the 50%+ increase, that may sound like an easy number to see again, but I'm not so sure.
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PNGMK
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by PNGMK » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 5:54 am
I think the rental market is changing significantly. I see far more options opened up by Colingwoo etc opening up
Serviced Apartments etc. ABSD hikes are also going to reduce the resident
property investor population (I wonder if the gahmen even took that into account). These changes are taking some time to ripple through; however from my perspective as a property holder I now intend to rent out my property rather when I leave Singapore, than sell it in an illiquid market (which it now is, thanks to the new ABSD rules).
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truthhurts1
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by truthhurts1 » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 7:37 am
Lisafuller wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 12:15 pm
truthhurts1 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 9:44 am
Wd40 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 7:55 am
Yeah, but this should be the peak. Don't lock in 2 years. Also if possible look around and forward the article to your landlord telling him rents are going down and you will move out unless he makes it 3500. It's absurd to go from 2350 to 3000 and then straight away to 3900.
In my case, my house is a bit run down, so I managed to get it below market rate in 2018. It is a 5i corner unit 1300 sqft house. The paint job and tiles and kitchen and bathrooms were okay condition. It is a 1996 TOP HDB. So I negotiated well and got it for $1800 when nearby houses were going for $2300. Then from $1800 after 3.5 years, in 2021 I again negotiated well and got it for $2300. Now in 2023, I again managed to negotiate directly with the owner for $3000. But then the agent came in the middle and screwed up the whole thing. The agent got scared that he will be cut off and won't get the agent fee. So he told the landlord that he is stupid to rent it to me for $3000 and he could easily get $4000. Which is BS. Then the agent offered me $3500. Initially under pressure I agreed. Then I looked around. Most 3 bedroom houses are $4000. But this time there are tonnes of houses available.
Here is the golden rule in the rental market. It is all about how much fomo the agent can create by bringing a horde of people to view the house. But this time, most expats in the low end have sent their family out of SG or moved out themselves. So the demand has just collapsed.
Now I told the agent $3300, or I will vacate. Agent came back with $3400. I stuck with the same figure. I told him I will move to a 2 bedder house for $3000, unless I can renew the current house for $3300.
So now we are playing the who blinks first game.
Thank you for your comments bro.
Yes it’s the agents who are also trying to influence the owners actually, the same is in my case.
That’s why I mentioned that greed is a real thing.
Yesterday I informed them that I would not consider renewing if they increase the rent to 3900$.
The agent told me that she will discuss with the owner and come back to me for a 2 year rental period.
In the meantime I am already making arrangements to move to another place.
How much is the other unit you're planning on moving to? If the agent comes back to you with a satisfactory offer will you still move?
Lisa fuller I decided to keep a budget just in range of 3000$.
I have looked at some
condo units in other areas that are in similar range but the sqft size is a bit small in range of 450sqft.
Not explored the option of looking at HDB unit yet but that is also on the plan.
I will still be willing to renew the contract if they give me an offer of close to 3200$ for 2 years.
Think it will be worth 2400$ a year to avoid all the moving and getting used to a new place again.
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by truthhurts1 » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 7:42 am
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 6:02 pm
Wd40 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 5:43 pm
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 2:49 pm
Back when I was renting, I came across a lot of jokers who were hoping to get lucky and asking 40-50% above market rent. Don’t waste your time with these jokers, they are not serious about renting the unit and don’t deserve the time of day. I still remember the last joker I encountered, I told him straight to his face that the price he was asking is way too high and I told him what the market rent was for his place. He didn’t care, so I immediately left. There is no explanation or logic for these kinds of people, other than one — they are hoping to get lucky and are willing to wait long-long for a sucker to come along… if that ever happens. Even if this kind of landlord comes down to market level, you don’t want to be the one renting from them. They are just opportunists who will always look for a way to screw you.
It is not really about the outliers here. But almost all mass market 3 bedder HDBs are asking for $4200 and then they say they want small family.
I wonder how many people here earn so much to spend 4.2k on rent? DP holders are not even allowed to work, if they could they would bring in some income to offset the rent.
After COVID, due to Malaysian workers stuck here, a few houses managed to somehow bid up their asking rents. This just meant everyone now is asking the high rents. But people don't have those kind of salaries.
So I expect the houses to stay vacant and then the owners will reduce their expectations. I expect 3 bedder HDBs rent to come down to 3.5k from the current 4.2k
I believe many employers still provide some kind of housing allowance to foreign employees. This is the case for the vast majority of expats at my employer. Being a local expat (like me) is an outlier, and I’d say roughly half of the local expats at my employer are trailing spouses (already taken care of). This allowance should be a factor in rental rates here.
Back when I was renting, the first thing realtors used to ask me: what is your budget, to which I replied — I have no budget, my employer does not cover any of my housing expenses! They seemed shocked by my response, but that is the reality.
Malcontent I took up a new job offer and it was worth to just negotiate the package on a very good basic salary due to the new rules for EP. I did not discuss housing allowance with them.
I know some western people who have been moving recently getting a very good housing allowance, so it really depends on the company.
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Wd40
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by Wd40 » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 8:03 am
Yeah, I know exclusively about the banking industry. Expat packages is given only for LTA(long term assignments) from the head office, for 3-5 years or so. This is at senior levels and they rent
condos in posh locations and they are very few of them.
We are talking about public housing lowest strata housing here. I mean it can't go below this, without compromising on human dignity. Yet these houses are asking crazy 4.2k.
We noticed a funny thing though. The last 3 houses I went and saw, there are only 3 prospective Indian tenants and we are bumping into each other for the house viewing, lol. So it is like there is a big vacuum of demand right now. Only 2-3 people are looking at 30-40 houses.
The whole thing is going to implode very soon.
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by smoulder » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 8:13 am
Make hay while the sun shines is probably the way that these landlords view it. Or as long as they can fool you into believing that the sun is shining.
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by malcontent » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 9:54 am
truthhurts1 wrote: ↑Thu, 24 Aug 2023 7:42 am
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 6:02 pm
Wd40 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 5:43 pm
It is not really about the outliers here. But almost all mass market 3 bedder HDBs are asking for $4200 and then they say they want small family.
I wonder how many people here earn so much to spend 4.2k on rent? DP holders are not even allowed to work, if they could they would bring in some income to offset the rent.
After COVID, due to Malaysian workers stuck here, a few houses managed to somehow bid up their asking rents. This just meant everyone now is asking the high rents. But people don't have those kind of salaries.
So I expect the houses to stay vacant and then the owners will reduce their expectations. I expect 3 bedder HDBs rent to come down to 3.5k from the current 4.2k
I believe many employers still provide some kind of housing allowance to foreign employees. This is the case for the vast majority of expats at my employer. Being a local expat (like me) is an outlier, and I’d say roughly half of the local expats at my employer are trailing spouses (already taken care of). This allowance should be a factor in rental rates here.
Back when I was renting, the first thing realtors used to ask me: what is your budget, to which I replied — I have no budget, my employer does not cover any of my housing expenses! They seemed shocked by my response, but that is the reality.
Malcontent I took up a new job offer and it was worth to just negotiate the package on a very good basic salary due to the new rules for EP. I did not discuss housing allowance with them.
I know some western people who have been moving recently getting a very good housing allowance, so it really depends on the company.
EP holders miss out on up to $1445 per month ($102k x 17% / 12) in employer CPF contributions… at the very least, they should compensate you for that — because housing is a big part of why CPF is there in the first place… and for locals, they get other subsidies on top of that — so all the more reason employers should be expected to provide at least ‘some’ housing compensation.
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by NYY1 » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 10:55 am
Interesting views and comments, although sometimes I wonder if people are influenced by how they are positioned. I'm somewhere between the two views; I do think there are longer-term factors favouring rental units. However, in the near-term I think people are still jumping through a lot of hoops to own multiple units (mom and pop rental investment). But eventually this is going to run its course, and the larger chunks of capital face different constraints (and choices).
The unwinding of the temporary demand spike is real, and some of the newly TOP'd units are also rentals, compounding the relative change in supply/demand. Whether owners can hold the line and/or wait it out long enough for all of these units to be naturally absorbed remains to be seen.
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by x9200 » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 12:12 pm
Wd40 wrote: ↑Thu, 24 Aug 2023 8:03 am
Yeah, I know exclusively about the banking industry. Expat packages is given only for LTA(long term assignments) from the head office, for 3-5 years or so. This is at senior levels and they rent
condos in posh locations and they are very few of them.
We are talking about public housing lowest strata housing here. I mean it can't go below this, without compromising on human dignity. Yet these houses are asking crazy 4.2k.
We noticed a funny thing though. The last 3 houses I went and saw, there are only 3 prospective Indian tenants and we are bumping into each other for the house viewing, lol. So it is like there is a big vacuum of demand right now. Only 2-3 people are looking at 30-40 houses.
The whole thing is going to implode very soon.
What you are saying in this thread is form me like living in a different city. Based on the rental prices in my
condo (600+ units) I can only see rentals reaching some sort of plateau with still some up going trend. When we moved here in ca 10yo well over 20 units were offered to rent and such situation remained for coming years. For last 1.5 y it is more like 5 at any time. I also checked all the places I lived in earlier or was interested at some time and everywhere the situation looks the same - a few units available now, plenty in the past. This is all backed up by URA transactions, and 600 units is rather large estate. Don't want to spoil your optimistic outlook but with this peaking down and a big vacuum is more like a wishful thinking. I really don't think we are at this point yet or are HDBs that different?
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by Wd40 » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 12:39 pm
x9200 wrote: ↑Thu, 24 Aug 2023 12:12 pm
Wd40 wrote: ↑Thu, 24 Aug 2023 8:03 am
Yeah, I know exclusively about the banking industry. Expat packages is given only for LTA(long term assignments) from the head office, for 3-5 years or so. This is at senior levels and they rent
condos in posh locations and they are very few of them.
We are talking about public housing lowest strata housing here. I mean it can't go below this, without compromising on human dignity. Yet these houses are asking crazy 4.2k.
We noticed a funny thing though. The last 3 houses I went and saw, there are only 3 prospective Indian tenants and we are bumping into each other for the house viewing, lol. So it is like there is a big vacuum of demand right now. Only 2-3 people are looking at 30-40 houses.
The whole thing is going to implode very soon.
What you are saying in this thread is form me like living in a different city. Based on the rental prices in my
condo (600+ units) I can only see rentals reaching some sort of plateau with still some up going trend. When we moved here in ca 10yo well over 20 units were offered to rent and such situation remained for coming years. For last 1.5 y it is more like 5 at any time. I also checked all the places I lived in earlier or was interested at some time and everywhere the situation looks the same - a few units available now, plenty in the past. This is all backed up by URA transactions, and 600 units is rather large estate. Don't want to spoil your optimistic outlook but with this peaking down and a big vacuum is more like a wishful thinking. I really don't think we are at this point yet or are HDBs that different?
I think each micro market has its own dynamics. I am mainly looking at HDBs. Condos are now well beyond my reach.
You can take a look at D22 district ads in the popular real estate website. In 2021, I hardly saw any units vacant, but now I see a lot and hardly anybody looking for them. Just 3 Indian families bumping into each other. The Malaysians have all long moved to JB. So it kind of makes sense.
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Lisafuller
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by Lisafuller » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 1:31 pm
x9200 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 12:45 pm
Lisafuller wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 12:09 pm
truthhurts1 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 7:41 am
The place I am renting used to be 2350$ before the Corona virus , and last year the owner raised the rent to 3000$, now for renewing the contract they are asking me for 3900$ …
So I don’t think this rent peaking stands correct in many cases..greed wont let it happen and there are enough chumps who will be ready to pay these inflated rents as the company is paying for them especially the westerners who come here on short stints
That's outrageous, but all too common nowadays. I'd look elsewhere...
Elsewhere is unfortunately the same plus the moving out/in costs. We experienced similar hike and I can not even call it unfair because this is the price the flats are now being rented for in my
condo.
I did think about this, but I feel it would be justifiable if the landlord was too unreasonable. It does seem like most landlords are taking advantage of the situation.
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Lisafuller
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by Lisafuller » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 1:32 pm
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 2:49 pm
Back when I was renting, I came across a lot of jokers who were hoping to get lucky and asking 40-50% above market rent. Don’t waste your time with these jokers, they are not serious about renting the unit and don’t deserve the time of day. I still remember the last joker I encountered, I told him straight to his face that the price he was asking is way too high and I told him what the market rent was for his place. He didn’t care, so I immediately left. There is no explanation or logic for these kinds of people, other than one — they are hoping to get lucky and are willing to wait long-long for a sucker to come along… if that ever happens. Even if this kind of landlord comes down to market level, you don’t want to be the one renting from them. They are just opportunists who will always look for a way to screw you.
The last line sums it all up. If they are unethical people, they will always be looking for ways to take advantage of you.
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by Lisafuller » Thu, 24 Aug 2023 1:34 pm
Wd40 wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 5:43 pm
malcontent wrote: ↑Wed, 23 Aug 2023 2:49 pm
Back when I was renting, I came across a lot of jokers who were hoping to get lucky and asking 40-50% above market rent. Don’t waste your time with these jokers, they are not serious about renting the unit and don’t deserve the time of day. I still remember the last joker I encountered, I told him straight to his face that the price he was asking is way too high and I told him what the market rent was for his place. He didn’t care, so I immediately left. There is no explanation or logic for these kinds of people, other than one — they are hoping to get lucky and are willing to wait long-long for a sucker to come along… if that ever happens. Even if this kind of landlord comes down to market level, you don’t want to be the one renting from them. They are just opportunists who will always look for a way to screw you.
It is not really about the outliers here. But almost all mass market 3 bedder HDBs are asking for $4200 and then they say they want small family.
I wonder how many people here earn so much to spend 4.2k on rent? DP holders are not even allowed to work, if they could they would bring in some income to offset the rent.
After COVID, due to Malaysian workers stuck here, a few houses managed to somehow bid up their asking rents. This just meant everyone now is asking the high rents. But people don't have those kind of salaries.
So I expect the houses to stay vacant and then the owners will reduce their expectations. I expect 3 bedder HDBs rent to come down to 3.5k from the current 4.2k
It's inevitable that rents will come down, so I'm not sure if they'll come down quite as far as you said. Perhaps 3.7/8K.
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