Which local schools for excellent English/communication skills?

[NYY1]

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.

Some went to or go to those countries with an 800 on the English portion of the SAT (and enter non-math/science streams there). Don't assume that because some can't that means no one else can.

[malcontent]

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.

Some went to or go to those countries with an 800 on the English portion of the SAT (and enter non-math/science streams there). Don't assume that because some can't that means no one else can.

I think we both agree — scoring 800 on the English portion of SAT is not a good measure beyond technical competency.

But I also don’t disagree that many in native English speaking countries can’t cut the cheese; I recall a moment in my time at college in the US — I was doing a project with a Malaysian girl and an African American girl… the Malaysian was correcting her English and was clearly the stronger of the two; despite being non-native.

[NYY1]

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.

Some went to or go to those countries with an 800 on the English portion of the SAT (and enter non-math/science streams there). Don't assume that because some can't that means no one else can.

I think we both agree — scoring 800 on the English portion of SAT is not a good measure beyond technical competency.

But I also don’t disagree that many in native English speaking countries can’t cut the cheese; I recall a moment in my time at college in the US — I was doing a project with a Malaysian girl and an African American girl… the Malaysian was correcting her English and was clearly the stronger of the two; despite being non-native.

You should read some of the pieces kids write that are unrelated to the school syllabus (GEB programmes, own publications, etc). Or possibly know the capabilities of the students that have got into the best universities in a couple of those countries. Test scores aside, I don't think they have problems expressing themselves or their thoughts effectively, even when compared to their new peers. Remember, some people have spent substantial time in other countries, so maybe they aren't as clueless as you seem to think they are.

Anyways, I don't even think all of what you allege above has ever been claimed here. Perhaps you were responding to general comments or beliefs you've heard elsewhere? I've only said there are kids that focus on languages and speak good English (and certain fractions of parents did in a prior time too). Absolutely nothing was said about the aggregate level of English in the local schools or what is taught. There were, however, suggestions on what to do if one wants to build up their language skills.

And I would agree with some of what you are saying. It's the same reason why the Higher Chinese standard is where it is. But if you know, there are kids in other countries that can get their English to the same level mentioned above as well. So again, some can - that's all that has ever been said.

[Lisafuller]

Wow. This thread has turned into a broader discussion about learning languages in the local education system

I wanted to thank you all for sharing your views on this issue. I still don't think I have the answer I am looking for, but I think I understand why there may be no straightforward answers to this question.

Dear all, I tried looking for this online, but couldn’t find any straightforward answers. Could someone please advise on what local schools I can consider for my kids if speaking in non-accented and grammatically correct English is the most important criterion for my partner and me? I understand my kids will eventually pick up Singlish (which I don’t mind), but when they do codeswitch to English, I want them to speak perfect English and without any accents. Do you think that would be possible if I send them to a local school? If so, which schools should I consider to best enable this? Thank you!

In all honesty, this is practically impossible. This is Singapore, which means that the kids naturally speak with a local (Singaporean!) accent. It is unavoidable. Frankly, as parents we have very little control over what accent our kids will eventually adopt, even if you were to try and "make sure" your kid has an American accent, for example, by sending him to an International School, you may find that he ends up adopting a neutral British/American accent instead as that is how kids and teachers in International Schools speak (it is the middle ground of all international accents). Your child will almost definitely pick up the accent that is used by a majority of his peers in the school.

That being said, the accent your child picks up has a lot to do with who he is around, and there are certain schools in which students are exposed to more formal English at home, and in the classroom. I think I'm being quite clear here, but if you need names, you may want to look at Raffles, ACS, and a Hwa Chong. Basically any school that routinely ranks in the top. But let's be clear, you don't just get to send your child to these schools. He will need top scores to get in.

Based on this understanding, you have gotten your answer.

[Lisafuller]

Wow. This thread has turned into a broader discussion about learning languages in the local education system

I wanted to thank you all for sharing your views on this issue. I still don't think I have the answer I am looking for, but I think I understand why there may be no straightforward answers to this question.

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.

I completely agree, so I will add that there is another way: parents of the child must be native Americans, but even so whether or not the child picks up the accent and intricacies is a toss up.

[Lisafuller]

If it's not exceptionally difficult, then why are so many students here doing so poorly?

The answers are partly above.

Cooking a Japanese Ramen equivalent to what you can get on the streets of Tokyo is extremely difficult for me. I can try three times per week and I will produce something. That doesn't make the standard of my product very high. Pretty sure I'll be out of business quickly.

Nevertheless, people that take Chinese or Higher Chinese here are fully functional in most daily interactions. And you don't need a high score or advanced capabilities to have made this a worthwhile endeavor. Still, those who can judge the standard for themselves will know what limitations exist (even among some of the kids with high grades; there is a wide range of capabilities within the top grading band). Knowing this combined with some of the other comments in this thread, I think some people adjust their strategy based on interests and the fact that time is scarce.

I am in no position to judge, so I can only speak on what I've heard from my daughter and my interactions with chinese friends and their children. I have no doubt that most of the local youths are capable of speaking conversationally in Chinese, but only in a local context. Just as the standard of English here, even at the highest levels is not on par with that in the US/UK etc., the mandarin spoken here is nowhere near what you would need to be proficient in China. That being said, that level of proficiency is unnecessary and impractical for most Singaporeans.

[Lisafuller]

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.

Some went to or go to those countries with an 800 on the English portion of the SAT (and enter non-math/science streams there). Don't assume that because some can't that means no one else can.

You of all people should know that an 800 means nothing.

[Lisafuller]

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.

Some went to or go to those countries with an 800 on the English portion of the SAT (and enter non-math/science streams there). Don't assume that because some can't that means no one else can.

I think we both agree — scoring 800 on the English portion of SAT is not a good measure beyond technical competency.

But I also don’t disagree that many in native English speaking countries can’t cut the cheese; I recall a moment in my time at college in the US — I was doing a project with a Malaysian girl and an African American girl… the Malaysian was correcting her English and was clearly the stronger of the two; despite being non-native.

There are definitely outliers both ways, but I think it would be fair to make the generalization that English, as it is spoken in the US/UK is more proper and sound.

[Lisafuller]

Some went to or go to those countries with an 800 on the English portion of the SAT (and enter non-math/science streams there). Don't assume that because some can't that means no one else can.

I think we both agree — scoring 800 on the English portion of SAT is not a good measure beyond technical competency.

But I also don’t disagree that many in native English speaking countries can’t cut the cheese; I recall a moment in my time at college in the US — I was doing a project with a Malaysian girl and an African American girl… the Malaysian was correcting her English and was clearly the stronger of the two; despite being non-native.

You should read some of the pieces kids write that are unrelated to the school syllabus (GEB programmes, own publications, etc). Or possibly know the capabilities of the students that have got into the best universities in a couple of those countries. Test scores aside, I don't think they have problems expressing themselves or their thoughts effectively, even when compared to their new peers. Remember, some people have spent substantial time in other countries, so maybe they aren't as clueless as you seem to think they are.

Anyways, I don't even think all of what you allege above has ever been claimed here. Perhaps you were responding to general comments or beliefs you've heard elsewhere? I've only said there are kids that focus on languages and speak good English (and certain fractions of parents did in a prior time too). Absolutely nothing was said about the aggregate level of English in the local schools or what is taught. There were, however, suggestions on what to do if one wants to build up their language skills.

And I would agree with some of what you are saying. It's the same reason why the Higher Chinese standard is where it is. But if you know, there are kids in other countries that can get their English to the same level mentioned above as well. So again, some can - that's all that has ever been said.

My bottom line is that the best English speakers in Singapore are probably every bit as good as those in America, however, the average English speaker in Singapore is nowhere near their American counterpart.

[NYY1]

I am in no position to judge, so I can only speak on what I've heard from my daughter and my interactions with chinese friends and their children. I have no doubt that most of the local youths are capable of speaking conversationally in Chinese, but only in a local context. Just as the standard of English here, even at the highest levels is not on par with that in the US/UK etc., the mandarin spoken here is nowhere near what you would need to be proficient in China. That being said, that level of proficiency is unnecessary and impractical for most Singaporeans.

My bottom line is that the best English speakers in Singapore are probably every bit as good as those in America, however, the average English speaker in Singapore is nowhere near their American counterpart.

The first part is an accurate and practical assessment (on average). For Chinese, I will even give some kids more credit than that, as they'll be able to hold their own elsewhere too. At the same time, a smaller subset of the kids here are in the ballpark of the top students in native Chinese speaking countries even though the curriculum here is not as demanding. I guess there are other ways to learn outside of classroom instruction and preparing for an exam (I know you know this).

Next, even if the second idea is not strictly true, I think the point is that for some the gap is no longer so wide as to be a significant disadvantage. While parents should definitely consider alternative school systems (curriculum and location) to find the best fit for their child, it is hardly the case that all students here are as handicapped as it is sometimes made out to be (I know you know this too).

Interesting as always. Take care.

[Lisafuller]

I am in no position to judge, so I can only speak on what I've heard from my daughter and my interactions with chinese friends and their children. I have no doubt that most of the local youths are capable of speaking conversationally in Chinese, but only in a local context. Just as the standard of English here, even at the highest levels is not on par with that in the US/UK etc., the mandarin spoken here is nowhere near what you would need to be proficient in China. That being said, that level of proficiency is unnecessary and impractical for most Singaporeans.

My bottom line is that the best English speakers in Singapore are probably every bit as good as those in America, however, the average English speaker in Singapore is nowhere near their American counterpart.

The first part is an accurate and practical assessment (on average). For Chinese, I will even give some kids more credit than that, as they'll be able to hold their own elsewhere too. At the same time, a smaller subset of the kids here are in the ballpark of the top students in native Chinese speaking countries even though the curriculum here is not as demanding. I guess there are other ways to learn outside of classroom instruction and preparing for an exam (I know you know this).

Next, even if the second idea is not strictly true, I think the point is that for some the gap is no longer so wide as to be a significant disadvantage. While parents should definitely consider alternative school systems (curriculum and location) to find the best fit for their child, it is hardly the case that all students here are as handicapped as it is sometimes made out to be (I know you know this too).

Interesting as always. Take care.

You make a very important point. While there is a gap, it is much narrower than it was before, today, most locals can hold their own in conversation without incident. That's really what matters. SG has come a long way.

[Edge007]

Dear all, I tried looking for this online, but couldn’t find any straightforward answers. Could someone please advise on what local schools I can consider for my kids if speaking in non-accented and grammatically correct English is the most important criterion for my partner and me? I understand my kids will eventually pick up Singlish (which I don’t mind), but when they do codeswitch to English, I want them to speak perfect English and without any accents. Do you think that would be possible if I send them to a local school? If so, which schools should I consider to best enable this? Thank you!

Impossible. Your kids will still develop the Singlish accent even if they attend the top local schools. The English spoken in these schools may be better than most other local schools, but its still Singlish.

I know this from personal experience.

Kids learn from and emulate their peers. Your kids would feel odd speaking with a Brit accent while their local peers speak better / bad Singlish. If the accent is an issue for you, send them to International School with more British / Aussie peers.

[abbby]

Yup totally impossible. In local schools, almost everyone speaks Singlish (our la, hor, meh, mah, can meh, cannot ah). That's how it is with local schools, oh ya and learning to swear when they go on higher levels.

[Edge007]

Yup totally impossible. In local schools, almost everyone speaks Singlish (our la, hor, meh, mah, can meh, cannot ah). That's how it is with local schools, oh ya and learning to swear when they go on higher levels.

Exactly. Top local school or not, its still Singlish.

Top local school = Better Singlish
Regular local school = Really bad Singlish
But its still singlish.

[NYY1]

Impossible. Your kids will still develop the Singlish accent even if they attend the top local schools. The English spoken in these schools may be better than most other local schools, but its still Singlish.

I know this from personal experience.

Kids learn from and emulate their peers. Your kids would feel odd speaking with a Brit accent while their local peers speak better / bad Singlish. If the accent is an issue for you, send them to International School with more British / Aussie peers.

Exactly. Top local school or not, its still Singlish.

Top local school = Better Singlish
Regular local school = Really bad Singlish
But its still singlish.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar ... its-vs-its

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/its-vs-its/