Which local schools for excellent English/communication skills?

[NYY1]

...
If you look at MOELC (Third Lang), they started with German, Japanese, and French, and based on the historical GDP tables that made sense. I still like L3 for the different cultural perspective it provides (not so much on the basic/mid-level language skills), but one has to ask whether it is better to just plow all of that time in to EL and CL. I.e. being very good at two is better than being reasonably good at three? Of course, some kids do very well in L3 (I think there is more inherent interest whereas sometimes MT gets turned into "another subject" and kids lose interest / they are only learning for exam purposes) and then have unique opportunities available to them. Other kids are just linguistically inclined and can pickup whatever you throw at them. Regardless, in the end internal interest trumps all...

At my daughter's secondary school where third language was offered, it could be subbed in for another subject when GPAs were being computed. This was an incentive for those who were weak in another subject, but strong in third language. I had expected French or Spanish to be among the more popular choices, but I was surprised to hear that Japanese was actually the front runner, at least in her school. Must be due to all the J Pop influence. I can only imagine if Korean was offered.

Japanese tends to dominate across the board (vs. French, German, Spanish), likely for some of the reasons you mentioned. Roughly speaking, half the kids don't make it out of S1 and by S3 probably 75%-90% have dropped (more choices on how to spend your time). L3 is hardly critical but I like it just like AEP or MEP (the H2 language classes are more about culture than strict language skills). Will it ever be used or is it useful? I don't know but it is one skill that will stick with you for life and generally gets you to think about things in a different way. Someone once told me it's as useful or useless as all of the math/science transformations, compositions, formulas, etc that many never use again after their last exam (not that these don't have value or provide opportunities either).

[NYY1]

I thought it would be useful for my daughter to learn Chinese, and she did take higher Chinese and scored distinction on her O-level exam… but practically, when we were in Taiwan and I asked her to help me order in Chinese, she spoke to the lady in English . I guess she is technically proficient, but unless she is absolutely forced to, she is never going to use the language.

Will it ever be a benefit for her? Hard to say. People always assume it will, but not knowing Chinese has never hindered me in my Singapore career, albeit for a US multinational. And although I do have regular meetings with our China-based colleagues, we just use English, and it’s never been an issue. Being able to speak Chinese… it seems more like a nice to have. Now, if I were forced to take an assignment in China, I can see where that would be a different story… but who wants to live in China? Now, an assignment in Japan, I can see some appeal there. I actually took Japanese in college and it’s a fun language to learn. It is almost the exact reverse of English grammar… just speak like Yoda from Star Wars and you’ve got the grammar mastered. The words are also easy to pronounce, similar consonant-vowel structure as bahasa, just more sophisticated in terms of tenses and root words. Having a phonetic alphabet and none of the tones helps too.

Most parents think this way because they grew up in an English dominated world (and maybe this will continue). Many of the current age parents are very good at English because they were students after the CL language schools were stopped (or switched to English) and that was the movement of the time. Even the SAP school kids only really took CL because it was mandatory (generally speaking). That being said, it still isn't essential, and is one of the reasons why some parents just don't care (or their kids are not linguistically inclined). Once you get past PSLE, the importance of MT is not very high and you can find a way to do well in whatever else you are interested in (academics and job).

To me, the value of learning languages is much different from using them while a tourist or potentially working somewhere (although the latter is nice). Again, interest is the most important factor but all else the same I know which languages I would recommend someone take if starting from scratch and forced to do so (here or anywhere else that has L2 language requirements).

Also, note that the Higher Chinese standard here isn't that high. Some kids are really good, but it is usually because they come from a Mandarin dominated home (look at what type of books the read, how they consume news, etc). Many of the PRC kids (int'l students or former PRC parents) have an advantage in primary school (syllabus is simple for them), but in secondary school some of the advantage is lost because most of their lives are in English (the HCL subject is still very easy for them but they aren't interested in doing more than that). That being said, it's certainly enough to order food in Taiwan or China, so perhaps there was some other reason why she didn't want to use it then. But yes, if kids only learnt because it was just another subject (and no real interest), then the info/skill will only be used when absolutely mandatory. Otherwise, default to the dominant language, which is OK too.

[Lisafuller]

I thought it would be useful for my daughter to learn Chinese, and she did take higher Chinese and scored distinction on her O-level exam… but practically, when we were in Taiwan and I asked her to help me order in Chinese, she spoke to the lady in English . I guess she is technically proficient, but unless she is absolutely forced to, she is never going to use the language.

Will it ever be a benefit for her? Hard to say. People always assume it will, but not knowing Chinese has never hindered me in my Singapore career, albeit for a US multinational. And although I do have regular meetings with our China-based colleagues, we just use English, and it’s never been an issue. Being able to speak Chinese… it seems more like a nice to have. Now, if I were forced to take an assignment in China, I can see where that would be a different story… but who wants to live in China? Now, an assignment in Japan, I can see some appeal there. I actually took Japanese in college and it’s a fun language to learn. It is almost the exact reverse of English grammar… just speak like Yoda from Star Wars and you’ve got the grammar mastered. The words are also easy to pronounce, similar consonant-vowel structure as bahasa, just more sophisticated in terms of tenses and root words. Having a phonetic alphabet and none of the tones helps too.

Actually, Japanese is very close to chinese, their Kanji writing, shares a lot of characters with the Chinese language.

And honestly, I think you have a point. The whole idea of learning Chinese to do business in China is overrated. China has long been adapting to the western world by making English language compulsory in most of their schools, in fact, their English test at the highest level is known to be fairly rigorous. While China has a massive population, practically every other country in the world that forms the actual majority speaks English, so it makes sense for them to as well. Perhaps, then, what speaking Chinese offers in terms of business is a emotional/cultural connection with business contacts, which may foster better business relations, but that is completely intangible.

[Lisafuller]

My daughter enrolled in primary school in 2010. I don't recall her being sorted into any mother tongue, we picked Mandarin for her.

I don't know all of your family details but it is likely because she doesn't fit into C, M, or I? Those people (citizens) would naturally be assigned to the corresponding MT. The dual race kids can pick, as can the international students (ASEAN, etc).

Are dual race kids able to pick outside their race? One of my daughter's friends is half Indian, half Malay, but has always taken Chinese. They went to the same primary and secondary schools as well as JC, and she's taken chinese the whole way through.

[Lisafuller]

...
If you look at MOELC (Third Lang), they started with German, Japanese, and French, and based on the historical GDP tables that made sense. I still like L3 for the different cultural perspective it provides (not so much on the basic/mid-level language skills), but one has to ask whether it is better to just plow all of that time in to EL and CL. I.e. being very good at two is better than being reasonably good at three? Of course, some kids do very well in L3 (I think there is more inherent interest whereas sometimes MT gets turned into "another subject" and kids lose interest / they are only learning for exam purposes) and then have unique opportunities available to them. Other kids are just linguistically inclined and can pickup whatever you throw at them. Regardless, in the end internal interest trumps all...

At my daughter's secondary school where third language was offered, it could be subbed in for another subject when GPAs were being computed. This was an incentive for those who were weak in another subject, but strong in third language. I had expected French or Spanish to be among the more popular choices, but I was surprised to hear that Japanese was actually the front runner, at least in her school. Must be due to all the J Pop influence. I can only imagine if Korean was offered.

Japanese tends to dominate across the board (vs. French, German, Spanish), likely for some of the reasons you mentioned. Roughly speaking, half the kids don't make it out of S1 and by S3 probably 75%-90% have dropped (more choices on how to spend your time). L3 is hardly critical but I like it just like AEP or MEP (the H2 language classes are more about culture than strict language skills). Will it ever be used or is it useful? I don't know but it is one skill that will stick with you for life and generally gets you to think about things in a different way. Someone once told me it's as useful or useless as all of the math/science transformations, compositions, formulas, etc that many never use again after their last exam (not that these don't have value or provide opportunities either).

Personally, I don't see AEP as being worth anything. It offers no academic credits, and from what I've heard, is fairly time consuming. I also feel that for the most part, art is not something that can be taught, as it's supposed to be creative and free, but the way it is done in local schools is fairly methodical and drill-based.

[Lisafuller]

I thought it would be useful for my daughter to learn Chinese, and she did take higher Chinese and scored distinction on her O-level exam… but practically, when we were in Taiwan and I asked her to help me order in Chinese, she spoke to the lady in English . I guess she is technically proficient, but unless she is absolutely forced to, she is never going to use the language.

Will it ever be a benefit for her? Hard to say. People always assume it will, but not knowing Chinese has never hindered me in my Singapore career, albeit for a US multinational. And although I do have regular meetings with our China-based colleagues, we just use English, and it’s never been an issue. Being able to speak Chinese… it seems more like a nice to have. Now, if I were forced to take an assignment in China, I can see where that would be a different story… but who wants to live in China? Now, an assignment in Japan, I can see some appeal there. I actually took Japanese in college and it’s a fun language to learn. It is almost the exact reverse of English grammar… just speak like Yoda from Star Wars and you’ve got the grammar mastered. The words are also easy to pronounce, similar consonant-vowel structure as bahasa, just more sophisticated in terms of tenses and root words. Having a phonetic alphabet and none of the tones helps too.

Most parents think this way because they grew up in an English dominated world (and maybe this will continue). Many of the current age parents are very good at English because they were students after the CL language schools were stopped (or switched to English) and that was the movement of the time. Even the SAP school kids only really took CL because it was mandatory (generally speaking). That being said, it still isn't essential, and is one of the reasons why some parents just don't care (or their kids are not linguistically inclined). Once you get past PSLE, the importance of MT is not very high and you can find a way to do well in whatever else you are interested in (academics and job).

To me, the value of learning languages is much different from using them while a tourist or potentially working somewhere (although the latter is nice). Again, interest is the most important factor but all else the same I know which languages I would recommend someone take if starting from scratch and forced to do so (here or anywhere else that has L2 language requirements).

Also, note that the Higher Chinese standard here isn't that high. Some kids are really good, but it is usually because they come from a Mandarin dominated home (look at what type of books the read, how they consume news, etc). Many of the PRC kids (int'l students or former PRC parents) have an advantage in primary school (syllabus is simple for them), but in secondary school some of the advantage is lost because most of their lives are in English (the HCL subject is still very easy for them but they aren't interested in doing more than that). That being said, it's certainly enough to order food in Taiwan or China, so perhaps there was some other reason why she didn't want to use it then. But yes, if kids only learnt because it was just another subject (and no real interest), then the info/skill will only be used when absolutely mandatory. Otherwise, default to the dominant language, which is OK too.

Actually, for students on the O-level track, mother tongue is pretty important as it directly affects their L1R5.

And I must disagree. At least for higher chinese, the standard gets pretty high. My daughter went to a bilingual kindergarten as we had foreseen that she would have to do mother tongue in primary school. She learned directly from teachers who were Chinese natives from Beijing, Shanghai, etc. She even went on chinese radio Yes 933 when she was in preschool to be interviewed in Chinese and do some Chinese reading. Funnily enough, we found the same passage she read at six years old in her primary six higher Chinese textbook. But that's not my point.

By the time she got to secondary school, she was having a far harder time with her chinese. For the very first time she was finding it difficult to pass, where for the rest of her life she had been consistently topping the class.

[NYY1]

My daughter enrolled in primary school in 2010. I don't recall her being sorted into any mother tongue, we picked Mandarin for her.

I don't know all of your family details but it is likely because she doesn't fit into C, M, or I? Those people (citizens) would naturally be assigned to the corresponding MT. The dual race kids can pick, as can the international students (ASEAN, etc).

Are dual race kids able to pick outside their race? One of my daughter's friends is half Indian, half Malay, but has always taken Chinese. They went to the same primary and secondary schools as well as JC, and she's taken chinese the whole way through.

I've never known the answer to this but based on replies here there seems to be an answer.

[NYY1]

Personally, I don't see AEP as being worth anything. It offers no academic credits, and from what I've heard, is fairly time consuming. I also feel that for the most part, art is not something that can be taught, as it's supposed to be creative and free, but the way it is done in local schools is fairly methodical and drill-based.

I wouldn't take it if you aren't interested in art (it does take a lot of time and either you have the skill or you don't by secondary age). But if so, it is an alternative to other classes at both the O and A Level, and the class is not just on doing art. Anyways, if you look at what some of the kids produce it is pretty amazing.

[NYY1]

Actually, for students on the O-level track, mother tongue is pretty important as it directly affects their L1R5.

And I must disagree. At least for higher chinese, the standard gets pretty high. My daughter went to a bilingual kindergarten as we had foreseen that she would have to do mother tongue in primary school. She learned directly from teachers who were Chinese natives from Beijing, Shanghai, etc. She even went on chinese radio Yes 933 when she was in preschool to be interviewed in Chinese and do some Chinese reading. Funnily enough, we found the same passage she read at six years old in her primary six higher Chinese textbook. But that's not my point.

By the time she got to secondary school, she was having a far harder time with her chinese. For the very first time she was finding it difficult to pass, where for the rest of her life she had been consistently topping the class.

Primary school Chinese (or even Higher Chinese) has a limited syllabus, and it is somewhat easier to do well through repetition and understanding the realm of what they can throw at you (or you are just good at languages). In secondary school, kids can start to struggle with Chinese (or Higher Chinese) for a couple of reasons. First, class time drops from daily to several times per week. Add in the fact that there are many other ways to spend your time (academic and non-academic), and this subject usually takes a nosedive in the list of priorities (for many kids). Second, the scope of what's tested expands. To do well, you need to spend time beyond just attending class and doing the hw (many things that are optional or recommended are quasi necessary but no one is going to check that you actually did them).

So that can definitely make things harder for many students. Even so, that doesn't make the overall standard exceptionally high (even Higher Chinese). Ask any native speaker (or even some of the CL teachers here) and they will tell you. Nevertheless, 10 years of language instruction is more than most kids elsewhere get, and if that's the benchmark (for L2), perhaps I can agree.

For the O Level kids and L1R5, MT or HMT doesn't even need to go in the calculation. If one is trying to go to RI or whatnot, yes you may need the two bonus points from HMT to secure a spot (there are other ways to get four bonus points, but they aren't common or available to all). Outside of that, one can get around it. Chinese SL B in the IB syllabus is notoriously easy for kids here and H1 Chinese in JC is not that difficult either (for uni the grade doesn't even have to be used). Poly I don't believe you need at all.

So again, perhaps it is the frame of reference or measuring stick...

[Lisafuller]

Personally, I don't see AEP as being worth anything. It offers no academic credits, and from what I've heard, is fairly time consuming. I also feel that for the most part, art is not something that can be taught, as it's supposed to be creative and free, but the way it is done in local schools is fairly methodical and drill-based.

I wouldn't take it if you aren't interested in art (it does take a lot of time and either you have the skill or you don't by secondary age). But if so, it is an alternative to other classes at both the O and A Level, and the class is not just on doing art. Anyways, if you look at what some of the kids produce it is pretty amazing.

Definitely agree that the quality of work is superb, however, many of my daughters friends shared that they didn't enjoy the program as they felt it was too rigid.

[Lisafuller]

I don't know all of your family details but it is likely because she doesn't fit into C, M, or I? Those people (citizens) would naturally be assigned to the corresponding MT. The dual race kids can pick, as can the international students (ASEAN, etc).

Are dual race kids able to pick outside their race? One of my daughter's friends is half Indian, half Malay, but has always taken Chinese. They went to the same primary and secondary schools as well as JC, and she's taken chinese the whole way through.

I've never known the answer to this but based on replies here there seems to be an answer.

Right, but in the case of SMS and his kids he made the argument that when following the father, their mother tongue was technically English. Whereas in this case both parent's mother tongues were offered by local schools.

[Lisafuller]

Actually, for students on the O-level track, mother tongue is pretty important as it directly affects their L1R5.

And I must disagree. At least for higher chinese, the standard gets pretty high. My daughter went to a bilingual kindergarten as we had foreseen that she would have to do mother tongue in primary school. She learned directly from teachers who were Chinese natives from Beijing, Shanghai, etc. She even went on chinese radio Yes 933 when she was in preschool to be interviewed in Chinese and do some Chinese reading. Funnily enough, we found the same passage she read at six years old in her primary six higher Chinese textbook. But that's not my point.

By the time she got to secondary school, she was having a far harder time with her chinese. For the very first time she was finding it difficult to pass, where for the rest of her life she had been consistently topping the class.

Primary school Chinese (or even Higher Chinese) has a limited syllabus, and it is somewhat easier to do well through repetition and understanding the realm of what they can throw at you (or you are just good at languages). In secondary school, kids can start to struggle with Chinese (or Higher Chinese) for a couple of reasons. First, class time drops from daily to several times per week. Add in the fact that there are many other ways to spend your time (academic and non-academic), and this subject usually takes a nosedive in the list of priorities (for many kids). Second, the scope of what's tested expands. To do well, you need to spend time beyond just attending class and doing the hw (many things that are optional or recommended are quasi necessary but no one is going to check that you actually did them).

So that can definitely make things harder for many students. Even so, that doesn't make the overall standard exceptionally high (even Higher Chinese). Ask any native speaker (or even some of the CL teachers here) and they will tell you. Nevertheless, 10 years of language instruction is more than most kids elsewhere get, and if that's the benchmark (for L2), perhaps I can agree.

For the O Level kids and L1R5, MT or HMT doesn't even need to go in the calculation. If one is trying to go to RI or whatnot, yes you may need the two bonus points from HMT to secure a spot (there are other ways to get four bonus points, but they aren't common or available to all). Outside of that, one can get around it. Chinese SL B in the IB syllabus is notoriously easy for kids here and H1 Chinese in JC is not that difficult either (for uni the grade doesn't even have to be used). Poly I don't believe you need at all.

So again, perhaps it is the frame of reference or measuring stick...

If it's not exceptionally difficult, then why are so many students here doing so poorly?

[NYY1]

If it's not exceptionally difficult, then why are so many students here doing so poorly?

The answers are partly above.

Cooking a Japanese Ramen equivalent to what you can get on the streets of Tokyo is extremely difficult for me. I can try three times per week and I will produce something. That doesn't make the standard of my product very high. Pretty sure I'll be out of business quickly.

Nevertheless, people that take Chinese or Higher Chinese here are fully functional in most daily interactions. And you don't need a high score or advanced capabilities to have made this a worthwhile endeavor. Still, those who can judge the standard for themselves will know what limitations exist (even among some of the kids with high grades; there is a wide range of capabilities within the top grading band). Knowing this combined with some of the other comments in this thread, I think some people adjust their strategy based on interests and the fact that time is scarce.

[digitalfruits18]

Wow. This thread has turned into a broader discussion about learning languages in the local education system

I wanted to thank you all for sharing your views on this issue. I still don't think I have the answer I am looking for, but I think I understand why there may be no straightforward answers to this question.

Dear all, I tried looking for this online, but couldn’t find any straightforward answers. Could someone please advise on what local schools I can consider for my kids if speaking in non-accented and grammatically correct English is the most important criterion for my partner and me? I understand my kids will eventually pick up Singlish (which I don’t mind), but when they do codeswitch to English, I want them to speak perfect English and without any accents. Do you think that would be possible if I send them to a local school? If so, which schools should I consider to best enable this? Thank you!

In all honesty, this is practically impossible. This is Singapore, which means that the kids naturally speak with a local (Singaporean!) accent. It is unavoidable. Frankly, as parents we have very little control over what accent our kids will eventually adopt, even if you were to try and "make sure" your kid has an American accent, for example, by sending him to an International School, you may find that he ends up adopting a neutral British/American accent instead as that is how kids and teachers in International Schools speak (it is the middle ground of all international accents). Your child will almost definitely pick up the accent that is used by a majority of his peers in the school.

That being said, the accent your child picks up has a lot to do with who he is around, and there are certain schools in which students are exposed to more formal English at home, and in the classroom. I think I'm being quite clear here, but if you need names, you may want to look at Raffles, ACS, and a Hwa Chong. Basically any school that routinely ranks in the top. But let's be clear, you don't just get to send your child to these schools. He will need top scores to get in.

[malcontent]

Wow. This thread has turned into a broader discussion about learning languages in the local education system

I wanted to thank you all for sharing your views on this issue. I still don't think I have the answer I am looking for, but I think I understand why there may be no straightforward answers to this question.

Many locals believe that the level of English spoken and taught here is on par with native English speaking countries like the UK/Ireland/US/AU/NZ. This is mostly because they don’t know what they don’t know. Many even think Singlish is the only difference, take that away and you’ve got the Queen’s English. Reality is, even at the highest levels of proficiency here, the grammatical structure and word choice for locals is often inappropriate or just plain weird in the native context… accents and Singlish aside.

The only way for your kids to acquire near native level of English is to be ensconced in said language. That is best done in a country of native speakers (not Singapore) and the closest thing you can get here is expensive International Schools — typically the best ones are those aligned to the countries of native speakers. But even then, my son who is attending the American school, his English is near native as you can get in Singapore - but it’s still not 100% up to his counterparts in the US (though substantially better than my daughter in local school). This is due to a combination of factors: exposure to non-native family members, non-native fellow students and sometimes non-native teachers at SAS too.