Europe retirement visas

[malcontent]

I would say big cities between the coasts in the U.S. can be quite compelling. Even before I left for Singapore 28 years ago, Dallas and Houston had the highest ratio of salary versus cost of living, with Atlanta the next runner up. Surprisingly, that has remained consistent over the decades. My employer recently set up more offices and factories in Texas and I was just reading how Samsung is going to invest tens of billions there after getting billions in Biden bucks. Texas sure seems to be going places.

[NYY1]

There is a difference in the type of jobs available (and the depth of the labour markets). In the semi-mature corporate world, I would say what you are looking at matters. However, Silcon Valley (Wall Street as well) is quite different from that. If I worked at Google for one to two decades starting the early-2000s, do I care what the fresh out of college salary to cost of living looks like (or even what the statistic looks like for a mid-career person)?

You can also look at how regions have grown GDP. Is it by population growth with flat/lower growth in GDP per capital or via productivity.

Not saying one is better than the other (decades later, many in the low(er) cost regions will be better off financially), as it depends on what one wants to do, but they are very different. One also needs to watch how places evolve (continued corporate re-locations, etc); the traditional hubs aren't immune from bad policies. Nevertheless, as of now they still have many advantages (as it relates to concentrations of certain things).

[Wd40]

Thanks for keeping my thread alive

I did a lot of research about several countries. In the end, I decided that to take the approach of go with the flow of money. Since there is no right or wrong country. You can be in the best country and still be in the bad situation over there or you can be in the worst country and be the good situation there. So everyone gets different set of circumstances, opportunities, problems etc and there is no way to compare countries and plan a move.

I never ever planned or imagined that I will end up in Singapore. But this happened and it has worked for me. There will always be something which I didn't achieve, but it is better to focus on what I achieved than what I didn't achieve.

So the plan is to just go with the flow and stay here as long as it makes sense. The main thing is my networth is growing and in the end, money matters a lot more than residency or location.

Regarding my daughter I will just take things as they come. There is still a long way to go for her college(6 more years).

[malcontent]

You’ve got some time, but you’ll be surprised how quickly college age comes.

My kids might both be starting college this fall. My wife is thinking of having my son take a high school exemption exam and skip the last two years - go straight into junior college (community college) in the U.S. He will probably have better options as a transfer student in California than trying to get in as a high school graduate (acceptance rates are more than double). After what our daughter went through, it should also be less stressful.

[Wd40]

You’ve got some time, but you’ll be surprised how quickly college age comes.

My kids might both be starting college this fall. My wife is thinking of having my son take a high school exemption exam and skip the last two years - go straight into junior college (community college) in the U.S. He will probably have better options as a transfer student in California than trying to get in as a high school graduate (acceptance rates are more than double). After what our daughter went through, it should also be less stressful.

Wow! We don't have these kind of pathways in the Indian education system( my daughter goes to an Indian intl school in Singapore ).

I am really amazed at how at a young age of P6 in Singapore they have so many pathways like academic, technical, express, integrated IB programme etc.

In the Indian education system, everyone goes through the same path until junior college( well actually in junior college there is choice between commerce, science or arts, most Indian kids choose science though)

Kids typically cruise throughout their schooling until the junior college. It is only at the end of junior college there is a competitive exam for undergrad college admissions.

So if we are in Singapore, my daughter completes her junior college in the same Indian intl school. Then if she gets brilliant marks we could try NUS/NTU/SMU etc for undergrad or an Indian undergrad college for bachelor's degree or maybe Ireland or some other country.

[PNGMK]

The retirement visas have have terms and conditions changed at the whim of governments.

[casey5047]

I just realized a number of European countries like Portugal, Spain etc offer retirement visas if you have passive income and enough savings.

So I was wondering people like me from 3rd world countries working in Singapore but will never get PR here and don't have a 1st world country passport, our situation is different from the 1st world country expats here who are looking for 3rd world country retirement visas like Thailand, Indonesia etc.

The problem with the retirement visas is that we are not allowed to work atleast until 5 years after which we can convert to permanent residence in Europe. So we need to time this well, we need to continue working in Singapore as long as it is possible but eventually our time runs out and it is perfect time to move to a retirement visa in Europe.

Any thoughts?

Which country are you from (sorry if I missed it elsewhere in the thread)?

[Wd40]

I just realized a number of European countries like Portugal, Spain etc offer retirement visas if you have passive income and enough savings.

So I was wondering people like me from 3rd world countries working in Singapore but will never get PR here and don't have a 1st world country passport, our situation is different from the 1st world country expats here who are looking for 3rd world country retirement visas like Thailand, Indonesia etc.

The problem with the retirement visas is that we are not allowed to work atleast until 5 years after which we can convert to permanent residence in Europe. So we need to time this well, we need to continue working in Singapore as long as it is possible but eventually our time runs out and it is perfect time to move to a retirement visa in Europe.

Any thoughts?

Which country are you from (sorry if I missed it elsewhere in the thread)?

India

[Wd40]

I just checked out Bangalore vs Lisbon cost of living in Numbeo

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... =Bangalore

Salaries in Bangalore are similar to Lisbon, cost of living in Lisbon is double of Bangalore, lol.

I did lots of research on trying to move to Europe on their passive income/retirement visa. But then considering the fact that those visas wont let me work over there and ask me to shows tons of documents including like police clearance, apostile on my documents, I was like there is no way I am going through those hoops to again live like a foreigner in another country.

After living the expat life here in Singapore, I am done. Now I will go back to Bangalore and live like a local, speak the local language, eat the local food and then work freely without any restrictions.

[NYY1]

I just checked out Bangalore vs Lisbon cost of living in Numbeo

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... =Bangalore

Salaries in Bangalore are similar to Lisbon, cost of living in Lisbon is double of Bangalore, lol.

I did lots of research on trying to move to Europe on their passive income/retirement visa. But then considering the fact that those visas wont let me work over there and ask me to shows tons of documents including like police clearance, apostile on my documents, I was like there is no way I am going through those hoops to again live like a foreigner in another country.

After living the expat life here in Singapore, I am done. Now I will go back to Bangalore and live like a local, speak the local language, eat the local food and then work freely without any restrictions.

How would you school your kid there? I'd let her finish school in India. If you are still working and/or can work remote for someone, look into the Digitial Nomad Visas (if they are still around then). You can work somewhere for 1-2 years and then head back. Somewhat of an extended vacation, experience something new, etc without burning cash.

[Wd40]

This makes me wonder, where is the best place for my kids to earn good money without high tax or high cost of living… especially when they are first starting out? Taxes are usually not as big of a factor for fresh grads earning starting salaries.

A fresh grad in the U.S. at my employer is getting around $70k right now, and depending on contributions to tax advantaged accounts, taxes can be quite reasonable, even in a high tax state.

A fresh grad in Singapore at my employer is getting around S$5k right now, which is >30% less than their U.S. counterparts at the moment. Tax savings isn’t going to help, and cost of living is only manageable if you tick the right boxes and accept a modest lifestyle.

The biggest differentiating factor between US and Singapore from the career/salary point of view, is the immigration. Singapore because of the way the immigration is, even though it is tightening, it is much more easier for employers to find cheap talent especially if it is not ultra niche. This is why you rarely see very high salaries in Singapore, whereas in US, software developers can make like 600-800k a year, imagine that kind of salary in Singapore.

In the US, immigration is so difficult that if you already have work rights in the US, you have already won half the battle. So for your kids I think it is a no brainer, it is US all the way.

[Wd40]

I just checked out Bangalore vs Lisbon cost of living in Numbeo

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... =Bangalore

Salaries in Bangalore are similar to Lisbon, cost of living in Lisbon is double of Bangalore, lol.

I did lots of research on trying to move to Europe on their passive income/retirement visa. But then considering the fact that those visas wont let me work over there and ask me to shows tons of documents including like police clearance, apostile on my documents, I was like there is no way I am going through those hoops to again live like a foreigner in another country.

After living the expat life here in Singapore, I am done. Now I will go back to Bangalore and live like a local, speak the local language, eat the local food and then work freely without any restrictions.

How would you school your kid there? I'd let her finish school in India. If you are still working and/or can work remote for someone, look into the Digitial Nomad Visas (if they are still around then). You can work somewhere for 1-2 years and then head back. Somewhat of an extended vacation, experience something new, etc without burning cash.

My daughter will go to a local school in India, she will go to 8th grade next year. Yes, the digital nomad visa is a good idea.

I just came back from a vacation to India and most people ask me why do I want to leave Singapore, it is difficult to explain to them. I tell them Singapore is a great place to live and work and raise a family. Then what is the reason I want to leave on my own accord?

I do quite a poor job in explaining my reasons but here they are:
1) No PR in Singapore, so it is just a matter of leaving now vs leaving in another 5, 10 or even 15 years. If the end goal is to leave Singapore, then I might as well do it now and look forward to something new.
2) The main reason I came to Singapore was for the geographical arbitrage, higher savings potential in Singapore, which I have made the most of. Continuing to live here I will save more money, but I am unlikely to spend it.
3) The 1st 5 years in Singapore were really exciting, it was a new country to explore, we travelled around the region, I even bought a motobike and used to go to JB and fill petrol every 3 weeks, lol and those days of riding motorcyle were the best days of my life here. I sold my motorcyle after 5 years due to a job uncertainity. Then even though the uncertainity went away and I found a new job, the COE went through the roof, it went up like 10X and I gave up riding. The next 10 years were pretty mundane, every day is like the same day and we have been living in a loop. Because we dont have any real friends or family here, even those friends we make, eventually leave Singapore and we start from scratch. We live in Jurong near Lakeside near an Indian intl school and the demographics have completely changed here in the last 7 years. When we came here rents were cheap, there were lots of Indian families renting HDBs and their kids in playgrounds it was a very India India kind of atmosphere. But after covid and prices shooting up, most of the Indians renting HDB have left Singapore, only the husband stays and the wife and kids went back to India. The richer dual income condo living Indians still continue to be in Singapore and send their kids to the Indian intl school. So we are kind of a rare species here, my salary is such that I can afford a condo, but I refuse to upgrade my lifestyle here as HDB is fine for us.
4) My skills are pretty average. I am working in my current role with the current employer since the last 9 years. So I last successfully interviewed and found a job was 9 years ago and that was a fluke lol. If I were to interview myself, I would never hire myself. My team is pretty mediocre, but it is a smallish European bank and not much work happens here, it is a support kind of role. I stopped doing real coding ages ago and I more of a process guy. My skills will not get my any job here in Singapore and I hate to upskill, no ambition, since I have already made enough. This also means, that I am stuck with this job and stuck with this boss. I will be doing everyone a favour by quitting myself, even though I have lots of process knowledge and my boss will most likely be happy for me to continue working from India on a Indian vendor's payroll. I havent spoken to him yet, I am waiting for my bonus letter.
5) My daughter's school some of her friends are already moving back to India this year. The kind of parents who continue to send their kids to the indian intl school at higher grades like the O level and A level are the type of parents who are like senior level condo dwelling dual income executives. Their jobs are pretty stable and they are likely to be pretty open to send their kids to study anywhere in the world, if their kids dont manage to get into the Singapore universities. I am not that big a hitter in my career. I also dont know if my daughter will be comfortable studying alone abroad for her university. Also I dont want to commit to living in Singapore until my daughter's college is over and then it is never ending right, I will have to try to stay here until she finds a job. What about her visa status and all that. I just feel that is too much of long term uncertainty to deal with.
6) My parents are old (75 and 70) and alone, although they are fit and do everything on their own and they are part of a very well knit community. They have built a landed house in Bangalore and they live in the ground floor and the upper floor is rent out. We are planning to go and live in the upper floor, so we get to have our privacy and still be there for our parents and for my daughter to know her grand parents better. So that is a huge plus for me. Even though my wife doesnt get along with my parents, we hope we can find a happy coexistence.

So those are my reasons, sorry for the long rant

[NYY1]

My daughter will go to a local school in India, she will go to 8th grade next year. Yes, the digital nomad visa is a good idea.

I just came back from a vacation to India and most people ask me why do I want to leave Singapore, it is difficult to explain to them. I tell them Singapore is a great place to live and work and raise a family. Then what is the reason I want to leave on my own accord?

I do quite a poor job in explaining my reasons but here they are:
1) No PR in Singapore, so it is just a matter of leaving now vs leaving in another 5, 10 or even 15 years. If the end goal is to leave Singapore, then I might as well do it now and look forward to something new.
2) The main reason I came to Singapore was for the geographical arbitrage, higher savings potential in Singapore, which I have made the most of. Continuing to live here I will save more money, but I am unlikely to spend it.
3) The 1st 5 years in Singapore were really exciting, it was a new country to explore, we travelled around the region, I even bought a motobike and used to go to JB and fill petrol every 3 weeks, lol and those days of riding motorcyle were the best days of my life here. I sold my motorcyle after 5 years due to a job uncertainity. Then even though the uncertainity went away and I found a new job, the COE went through the roof, it went up like 10X and I gave up riding. The next 10 years were pretty mundane, every day is like the same day and we have been living in a loop. Because we dont have any real friends or family here, even those friends we make, eventually leave Singapore and we start from scratch. We live in Jurong near Lakeside near an Indian intl school and the demographics have completely changed here in the last 7 years. When we came here rents were cheap, there were lots of Indian families renting HDBs and their kids in playgrounds it was a very India India kind of atmosphere. But after covid and prices shooting up, most of the Indians renting HDB have left Singapore, only the husband stays and the wife and kids went back to India. The richer dual income condo living Indians still continue to be in Singapore and send their kids to the Indian intl school. So we are kind of a rare species here, my salary is such that I can afford a condo, but I refuse to upgrade my lifestyle here as HDB is fine for us.
4) My skills are pretty average. I am working in my current role with the current employer since the last 9 years. So I last successfully interviewed and found a job was 9 years ago and that was a fluke lol. If I were to interview myself, I would never hire myself. My team is pretty mediocre, but it is a smallish European bank and not much work happens here, it is a support kind of role. I stopped doing real coding ages ago and I more of a process guy. My skills will not get my any job here in Singapore and I hate to upskill, no ambition, since I have already made enough. This also means, that I am stuck with this job and stuck with this boss. I will be doing everyone a favour by quitting myself, even though I have lots of process knowledge and my boss will most likely be happy for me to continue working from India on a Indian vendor's payroll. I havent spoken to him yet, I am waiting for my bonus letter.
5) My daughter's school some of her friends are already moving back to India this year. The kind of parents who continue to send their kids to the indian intl school at higher grades like the O level and A level are the type of parents who are like senior level condo dwelling dual income executives. Their jobs are pretty stable and they are likely to be pretty open to send their kids to study anywhere in the world, if their kids dont manage to get into the Singapore universities. I am not that big a hitter in my career. I also dont know if my daughter will be comfortable studying alone abroad for her university. Also I dont want to commit to living in Singapore until my daughter's college is over and then it is never ending right, I will have to try to stay here until she finds a job. What about her visa status and all that. I just feel that is too much of long term uncertainty to deal with.
6) My parents are old (75 and 70) and alone, although they are fit and do everything on their own and they are part of a very well knit community. They have built a landed house in Bangalore and they live in the ground floor and the upper floor is rent out. We are planning to go and live in the upper floor, so we get to have our privacy and still be there for our parents and for my daughter to know her grand parents better. So that is a huge plus for me. Even though my wife doesnt get along with my parents, we hope we can find a happy coexistence.

So those are my reasons, sorry for the long rant

No need to explain or justify to anyone else. By all accounts, I think it has worked out for you.

I think what you wrote about the first five years is pretty typical everywhere (even people that never leave their home country). After a while, the majority of people are basically doing the same thing over and over. For most, a good life is probably becoming financially independent and having strong family bonds. Everything else will come and go.

You mentioned the software developers in the US in a post above. The (typical) range is a bit higher than I would have pegged but it all depends (certainly, half a million+ isn't uncommon). Still, if you ask around enough, I'd bet a lot of those people are just trying to save enough so they can walk away. Many probably have a high anxiety of getting fired as well because they know they won't be able to replace that income stream.

Anyways, I'm glad your run was a success and best of luck once you actually call it quits and move.

[malcontent]

It takes guts to walk away from a relatively high paying job because of the financial security it represents. Everyone in my office thought I was crazy for giving up my job, which not only paid well but wasn’t too difficult or stressful. I’m now 2.5 weeks unemployed and although it’s not a great feeling, it has broken a monotonous cycle and is forcing me outside of my comfort zone. Change is hard, but variety is also the spice of life. When we look back in 10 or 20 years from now, I believe we’ll say it was all worth it.

[Wd40]

It takes guts to walk away from a relatively high paying job because of the financial security it represents. Everyone in my office thought I was crazy for giving up my job, which not only paid well but wasn’t too difficult or stressful. I’m now 2.5 weeks unemployed and although it’s not a great feeling, it has broken a monotonous cycle and is forcing me outside of my comfort zone. Change is hard, but variety is also the spice of life. When we look back in 10 or 20 years from now, I believe we’ll say it was all worth it.

Absolutely! This is exactly my thought process as well. Once you are financially secure, you would rather try out other things than doing the same thing. We have only one life. Imagine I work in the same city and same company for 20 years Vs I work for 3 or 4 different cities/countries in those 20 years. The latter is likely to be more worthwhile in terms of experiences, after the financial part is taken out of the equation.