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Wd40
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Europe retirement visas

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 9:10 am

I just realized a number of European countries like Portugal, Spain etc offer retirement visas if you have passive income and enough savings.

So I was wondering people like me from 3rd world countries working in Singapore but will never get PR here and don't have a 1st world country passport, our situation is different from the 1st world country expats here who are looking for 3rd world country retirement visas like Thailand, Indonesia etc.

The problem with the retirement visas is that we are not allowed to work atleast until 5 years after which we can convert to permanent residence in Europe. So we need to time this well, we need to continue working in Singapore as long as it is possible but eventually our time runs out and it is perfect time to move to a retirement visa in Europe.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by smoulder » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 10:00 am

A colleague from India told me that her husband and her are looking into a Portuguese visa of some kind. I didn't ask the details or what stage they are at, but their situation is similar to yours - Indian couple with a daughter in the mid teens who's future they are looking out for because they haven't been able to secure a PR in Singapore.

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 11:28 am

Wd40 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 9:10 am
I just realized a number of European countries like Portugal, Spain etc offer retirement visas if you have passive income and enough savings.

So I was wondering people like me from 3rd world countries working in Singapore but will never get PR here and don't have a 1st world country passport, our situation is different from the 1st world country expats here who are looking for 3rd world country retirement visas like Thailand, Indonesia etc.

The problem with the retirement visas is that we are not allowed to work atleast until 5 years after which we can convert to permanent residence in Europe. So we need to time this well, we need to continue working in Singapore as long as it is possible but eventually our time runs out and it is perfect time to move to a retirement visa in Europe.

Any thoughts?
If you are trying to convert it to PR (in the country you get a retirement visa in), what are the cut-offs (your age and kids' age) to drag the children along and get them that status? Everyone's situation and objectives are different, but is PR there (at the retirement stage of life) really any better than going back home?

Also need to keep any eye on the political developments in any / all of these countries. I think these visas (or residence by investment) have many competing interests and in some places they are under pressure (not saying which side is correct). I.e. if signing up tomorrow that is one thing, planning for a decade later I'm not sure (probably want to have multiple ideas/options).

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 12:46 pm

smoulder wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 10:00 am
A colleague from India told me that her husband and her are looking into a Portuguese visa of some kind. I didn't ask the details or what stage they are at, but their situation is similar to yours - Indian couple with a daughter in the mid teens who's future they are looking out for because they haven't been able to secure a PR in Singapore.
Yes, Portugal and Spain are on my radar. Also I work for an EU bank which has offices in both eastern and western Europe. In Eastern Europe they have offices in Poland, Romania and Slovakia. In western they have in Italy, Spain, Germany, NL and UK. It might be easier to get an internal move to one of the Eastern European countries. But I am not holding my breath for that.

There is still time and I keep watching YouTube videos of people moving to these countries.

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 12:51 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 11:28 am
Wd40 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 9:10 am
I just realized a number of European countries like Portugal, Spain etc offer retirement visas if you have passive income and enough savings.

So I was wondering people like me from 3rd world countries working in Singapore but will never get PR here and don't have a 1st world country passport, our situation is different from the 1st world country expats here who are looking for 3rd world country retirement visas like Thailand, Indonesia etc.

The problem with the retirement visas is that we are not allowed to work atleast until 5 years after which we can convert to permanent residence in Europe. So we need to time this well, we need to continue working in Singapore as long as it is possible but eventually our time runs out and it is perfect time to move to a retirement visa in Europe.

Any thoughts?
If you are trying to convert it to PR (in the country you get a retirement visa in), what are the cut-offs (your age and kids' age) to drag the children along and get them that status? Everyone's situation and objectives are different, but is PR there (at the retirement stage of life) really any better than going back home?

Also need to keep any eye on the political developments in any / all of these countries. I think these visas (or residence by investment) have many competing interests and in some places they are under pressure (not saying which side is correct). I.e. if signing up tomorrow that is one thing, planning for a decade later I'm not sure (probably want to have multiple ideas/options).
The retirement visas don't have cutoff and Europe is pretty liberal with family ties. So that shouldn't be an issue. But you are right that things may tighten. Portugal has already killed it's golden visa as their property market is going through the roof.

There are many Indians and Pakistanis who made it big in Dubai and similar to Singapore, Dubai doesn't give residency so these people are moving to Portugal. The Pakistanis seem a lot more desperate when I see the Facebook groups, Europe doesn't discriminate so the rich Pakistanis are moving there in droves. Indians who are rich and well connected typically don't want to leave India. But I am more like an exception and really want to explore Europe.

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 1:46 pm

Wd40 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 12:51 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 11:28 am
Wd40 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 9:10 am
I just realized a number of European countries like Portugal, Spain etc offer retirement visas if you have passive income and enough savings.

So I was wondering people like me from 3rd world countries working in Singapore but will never get PR here and don't have a 1st world country passport, our situation is different from the 1st world country expats here who are looking for 3rd world country retirement visas like Thailand, Indonesia etc.

The problem with the retirement visas is that we are not allowed to work atleast until 5 years after which we can convert to permanent residence in Europe. So we need to time this well, we need to continue working in Singapore as long as it is possible but eventually our time runs out and it is perfect time to move to a retirement visa in Europe.

Any thoughts?
If you are trying to convert it to PR (in the country you get a retirement visa in), what are the cut-offs (your age and kids' age) to drag the children along and get them that status? Everyone's situation and objectives are different, but is PR there (at the retirement stage of life) really any better than going back home?

Also need to keep any eye on the political developments in any / all of these countries. I think these visas (or residence by investment) have many competing interests and in some places they are under pressure (not saying which side is correct). I.e. if signing up tomorrow that is one thing, planning for a decade later I'm not sure (probably want to have multiple ideas/options).
The retirement visas don't have cutoff and Europe is pretty liberal with family ties. So that shouldn't be an issue. But you are right that things may tighten. Portugal has already killed it's golden visa as their property market is going through the roof.

There are many Indians and Pakistanis who made it big in Dubai and similar to Singapore, Dubai doesn't give residency so these people are moving to Portugal. The Pakistanis seem a lot more desperate when I see the Facebook groups, Europe doesn't discriminate so the rich Pakistanis are moving there in droves. Indians who are rich and well connected typically don't want to leave India. But I am more like an exception and really want to explore Europe.
OK, I see. Keep in mind you may ultimately be able to get residency wherever your kid goes (uni, work, etc), and that may be more desirable (family reasons and actual country). But it is always good to have options.

UAE has a residency by investment (I think)? I guess you are saying that they don't give out "PR" based on employment.

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 15 Jul 2023 2:14 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 1:46 pm
Wd40 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 12:51 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 15 Jul 2023 11:28 am

If you are trying to convert it to PR (in the country you get a retirement visa in), what are the cut-offs (your age and kids' age) to drag the children along and get them that status? Everyone's situation and objectives are different, but is PR there (at the retirement stage of life) really any better than going back home?

Also need to keep any eye on the political developments in any / all of these countries. I think these visas (or residence by investment) have many competing interests and in some places they are under pressure (not saying which side is correct). I.e. if signing up tomorrow that is one thing, planning for a decade later I'm not sure (probably want to have multiple ideas/options).
The retirement visas don't have cutoff and Europe is pretty liberal with family ties. So that shouldn't be an issue. But you are right that things may tighten. Portugal has already killed it's golden visa as their property market is going through the roof.

There are many Indians and Pakistanis who made it big in Dubai and similar to Singapore, Dubai doesn't give residency so these people are moving to Portugal. The Pakistanis seem a lot more desperate when I see the Facebook groups, Europe doesn't discriminate so the rich Pakistanis are moving there in droves. Indians who are rich and well connected typically don't want to leave India. But I am more like an exception and really want to explore Europe.
OK, I see. Keep in mind you may ultimately be able to get residency wherever your kid goes (uni, work, etc), and that may be more desirable (family reasons and actual country). But it is always good to have options.

UAE has a residency by investment (I think)? I guess you are saying that they don't give out "PR" based on employment.
UAE does have those long term visa but I don't think they lead to permanent residence. They are time bound, just like the MM2H. Most people want to convert to citizenship so that their kids can have it easy. This is where the Portugal retirement visa helps.

I would somehow like to get a developed country passport and then my daughter also has a choice to convert. She can make it on her own ofcourse, but that is not guaranteed. Lots of cases where kids don't get jobs due to lack of visa sponsorship. I think Singapore is also like this. Expat kids who do higher studies here maybe stuck without a visa and then go back to their country of passport, which they don't identify with.

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by NYY1 » Wed, 10 Apr 2024 4:58 am

Spain supposedly scrapping its Golden Visa programme. See if they adjust it to non-real estate investment like Portugal did.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sp ... sored_main

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ ... 024-01-09/

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by malcontent » Wed, 10 Apr 2024 4:53 pm

NYY1 said exactly what I was thinking, have your daughter do her university study in an EU country that has a reasonable chance at a path to immigration. I find Ireland especially attractive because it offers the right to live/work in the UK and EU, but I believe many years spent in Ireland are required. If she can study a field that is very specialized with high demand, that would help, but it has to align with her interests, of course.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by smoulder » Thu, 11 Apr 2024 2:27 pm

Ireland seems to be a country of choice for its usage of English. If I'm not wrong, costs are relatively low compared to some of the other European countries.

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by Addadude » Thu, 11 Apr 2024 7:53 pm

smoulder wrote:
Thu, 11 Apr 2024 2:27 pm
Ireland seems to be a country of choice for its usage of English. If I'm not wrong, costs are relatively low compared to some of the other European countries.
Um, you're very, very wrong. Irish property prices are through the roof, especially in Dublin, the capital city. They're right up there with SG levels.

Secondly, as a retiree you would be best served to have invested in private medical insurance as the public hospital system is VERY over burdened with people waiting years for 'elective surgeries' and if you are ever unfortunate enough to be in ER, you are in for a hellish experience.

Finally, there is rampant racism and resentment against 'foreign imports'. Additionally crime rates, particularly in Dublin city centre, are increasing rapidly. And even that idyllic cottage in the country runs the risk of being targeted by gangs of thugs who specifically seek out home with older people to raid and terrorize. IMO, every such home should have an SMS with his shotgun to deal with these arseholes but alas that is illegal in Ireland.

Don't get me wrong, Ireland is a beautiful country with many wonderful things about it and, if you have the money, it can offer an excellent quality of life. But you need to go into it with your eyes open.
"Both politicians and nappies need to be changed regularly, and for the same reasons."

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by malcontent » Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:16 am

If this website is to be believed, the average price per square foot for properties in Dublin is €482 (S$700).

https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/eur ... ter-prices

The most expensive is Zurich at €1598 (S$2319).

My condo (D10) is right around S$2200 at the moment.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by Addadude » Fri, 12 Apr 2024 9:57 am

malcontent wrote:
Fri, 12 Apr 2024 12:16 am
If this website is to be believed, the average price per square foot for properties in Dublin is €482 (S$700).

https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/eur ... ter-prices

The most expensive is Zurich at €1598 (S$2319).

My condo (D10) is right around S$2200 at the moment.
I think the average young Dublin couple looking to buy a home would cry in relief if they only had to pay €482 per sq ft. (And that's after checking their new home wasn't next to a crack house...) The appropriately named daft.ie is a better website to go for current house prices and here's a link to a house for sale very close to where I grew up, about 7 miles from the Dublin city centre. https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/detached-h ... in/5652397

Admittedly on the face of it houses aren't quite as high as Singapore, but when you take into account high rates of income tax you have to pay there, these homes may be even more unattainable. It's a big contributory factor to rapidly rising social tensions and deep distrust of the main political parties by younger voters.
"Both politicians and nappies need to be changed regularly, and for the same reasons."

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by malcontent » Mon, 15 Apr 2024 4:01 pm

This makes me wonder, where is the best place for my kids to earn good money without high tax or high cost of living… especially when they are first starting out? Taxes are usually not as big of a factor for fresh grads earning starting salaries.

A fresh grad in the U.S. at my employer is getting around $70k right now, and depending on contributions to tax advantaged accounts, taxes can be quite reasonable, even in a high tax state.

A fresh grad in Singapore at my employer is getting around S$5k right now, which is >30% less than their U.S. counterparts at the moment. Tax savings isn’t going to help, and cost of living is only manageable if you tick the right boxes and accept a modest lifestyle.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Europe retirement visas

Post by NYY1 » Mon, 15 Apr 2024 6:01 pm

malcontent wrote:
Mon, 15 Apr 2024 4:01 pm
This makes me wonder, where is the best place for my kids to earn good money without high tax or high cost of living… especially when they are first starting out? Taxes are usually not as big of a factor for fresh grads earning starting salaries.

A fresh grad in the U.S. at my employer is getting around $70k right now, and depending on contributions to tax advantaged accounts, taxes can be quite reasonable, even in a high tax state.

A fresh grad in Singapore at my employer is getting around S$5k right now, which is >30% less than their U.S. counterparts at the moment. Tax savings isn’t going to help, and cost of living is only manageable if you tick the right boxes and accept a modest lifestyle.
I look at it differently vs. what you describe in the first paragraph. While starting salary (vs costs) is not irrelevant, I care more about the opportunity set and what things could look like 5-10 years out.

Big cities have a high cost of living. They also have a greater number of opportunities with more upside. Arguably, they also have more lifestyle amenities and culture (museums, theatre, restaurants, etc - Singapore not so much on all of these dimensions), although this is debatable and it depends what people like to do in their spare time. More importantly, their labour markets are a lot deeper (many firms offering comparable opportunities, more chances for lateral or upward movement, etc). Lastly, while also subjective, these areas tend to attract a different group of people vs. more regional cities.

For example, within the US I would take a job in some of the coastal hubs even if it’s not the “top” job vs. a very good job elsewhere with better net pay (after considering costs). Cash flow might be tight the first few years, and it can remain tight forever if the upside never comes. But you don’t know if you don’t try. Nevertheless, everyone is different, and some don’t like these cities; they would rather have more flexibility plus start building up savings right out of the box.

Singapore vs. the US is a more complicated discussion and will probably depend on a number of factors. There is more upside here than there is in many US cities, but the costs are higher (compared to costs in those cities). At the same time, you also have mobility within the US, even if you don’t start out in the main areas. Personally, I don’t think here is really any more expensive than the US coastal cities, but the breadth and magnitude of opportunities there is going to be greater.

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