US university admissions

[Lisafuller]

Honestly, don't worry so much. At this point, the path your daughter is on cannot be undone, so just finish it off and see what happens. One option, apply UCLA and if don't get it go to one of the CA CCs and try to transfer. Worst case, she probably ends up at one of the other UCs, which may be one of the initial Uni 1 options as well. Or, cast the net out to some of the other top business schools and see what happens. The U Penn / MIT / NYU / etc still won't be easy but chances to the others (like IU) should be decent.

For me, I’m happy for my daughter to go to a more relaxed school, especially considering what she has been through… but I also understand my wife’s perspective — after all the work our daughter has put in and grades she has achieved, it is not just a waste, but a real shame if she doesn’t get into a school she deserves. For NUS, she has earned her pick of any major she wishes, medical, law, whatever.

I would rank NUS on par to a top 25 National University in the US. I don’t buy into the idea that NUS is comparable to a top 10, despite whatever ratings house might say otherwise. On global name recognition alone, they just aren’t as well known or respected outside of Asia.

Well technically, she'll only have earned her place once she's taken the A levels and gotten the qualifying grades. That being said, based on what you've described, I don't think she'll have any problem meeting the requirements.

And I honestly agree with you, the ratings are greatly inflated, and I believe that schools, for the most part are incommensurable. Who's to say which is better? Especially when you're comparing internationally.

[Lisafuller]

The more common outcome seems to be US Resident abroad (Citizen or Green Card Holder) is treated as a domestic applicant (although this is not the case at all schools last time I checked a few). If you are talking UCLA (domestic out-of-state), there seems to be some conflicting information on the UCLA website and the UC System website.

UCLA (look at the FAQ):

https://admission.ucla.edu/apply/intern ... applicants


Will I be considered a domestic or international applicant if I am a U.S. Citizen but attended an international high school?
If you graduate from a high school outside of the U.S., then you are considered an international applicant. If you graduate from a high school located in the U.S., you are considered a domestic applicant. However, keep in mind this only applies to the application process and might not apply for in-state residency and tuition.

UC (look at the right side of the page):

https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... pplicants/

Who is an international applicant?
You’re an international applicant if you’re not a U.S. citizen or U.S. permanent resident.

Regardless, I'm with Lisa on this point; while the admit rate tends to be lower in the international bucket and the academic stats of kids admitted are sometimes higher, I don't think being in the domestic bucket necessarily makes things easier. Reason being that internationally educated students often compare more favourably with other international students (relative to one's strengths and weaknesses). Unfortunately, this is not a X% and Y% lucky draw (with X% > Y%). It is really about how one ranks vs. the competition.

I haven’t looked at all of the admission data, but at least for the UC schools my daughter is gunning for, the international bucket now has a lower acceptance rate than the out of state bucket.

As for what UC classifies as international, looking at the two statements, technically, they could both be true without conflicting with one another. It says you are an international student if you are not a US citizen… but that doesn’t preclude the possibility of a U.S. citizen being counted as an international student.

I realised that is true, however, for the UC statement I don't know why they just wouldn't add on the end "or if you are a US Citizen educated abroad" (or something like that). Also, the reverse doesn't hold; the two statements would contradict each other for a US educated foreigner.

Here's what Berkeley says, and it seems to match the UC system. So I guess another slight variant of "domestic applicant with foreign credentials."

https://admissions.berkeley.edu/apply-t ... -students/

You are an international applicant if a visa is required to reside and study in the United States. A US citizen, permanent resident, refugee, or asylee who currently lives and studies outside the US is considered a domestic applicant with foreign credentials.

Yep, I believe American citizens educated abroad will be considered domestic applicants as far as aid and citizenship is concerned, but once academics are being evaluated, they will have to consider the context of where the student was educated.

As for whether applying from singapore offers an advantage or not? That's debatable.

[Lisafuller]

My daughter wanted to go to Phillips Exeter Academy in Massachusetts fresh out of primary school, and in retrospect, she probably would have thrived there, but she had just gotten into RGS and we wanted to let her try it out. I don't know if we would do things differently given the chance, as she's made many great friends and done well for herself, but I do think she would've had a more well-rounded, balanced education there.

Responding to both this, your comment on Year 11 boarding school, and other replies. For me, there are several parts of Year 7 - Year 12 education;
a) what you learn (nuts and bolts)
b) bells and whistles for a) (depth, rigor, extra programmes, etc)
c) what you experience (school spirit, history, tradition, peers, etc)
d) how you parlay this into an admissions ticket for the next level.

I think maximizing c) (and b) often goes along with that) doesn't always help to optimize d), as often the competition is higher. Even for places like the school you list above, they cannot get everyone to their desired destinations. For better or worse, every university is only going to take in so many people from each country, state, school, etc. Essentially, I think people end up competing against peers (subset of the total applicants) that are most similar to them, and the aggregate university odds (admits / applicants) or a particular school's Year 12 placement stats only mean so much. Whatever the odds for both are, there are kids with dramatically higher and lower chances (depending on the circumstances).

Conversely, one can go to a well-funded public (for free) and potentially make it through too. However, the per school intakes (quotas) are probably smaller than those for some of the powerhouse feeder schools, so it is hard to know whether the odds are "better." I.e. you are one of the top ten students but if they will only take in two kids, nothing has really changed. There may be some instances where this strategy will give you a high chance at the in-state school (I'm not sure what all of the qualifying rules are any longer). If so, picking a state with UCLA/Berkeley, UNC, UVA, U Michigan, etc isn't a bad strategy; try to be reasonably sure of securing one of these and then you have an option on something above that (again, provided one wants to live in those states and can find suitable employment, visa, etc).

As for S4 O/IP4 to college or community college, I would also lean against this due to the age difference (although you will get back some of the differential due to the school calendar elsewhere). These are formative years for kids beyond just chasing an admissions ticket. Ultimately, if the above is the desired route, I would probably try to pick a school / school system, and let the kid finish Year 8 or Year 9 through Year 12 there. Of course, everyone has different constraints and some things or views develop over time, so this is not to say Year 11 or college/community college are wrong.

In the end, the university admission process and selection has got quite crazy over the years. I don't have anything against kids working hard, having ambition, and setting targets high or parents wanting the best for their kids and trying to give them every advantage possible, but it is also important not to let this whole ordeal become more than it is...

I understand that the school from which one graduates cannot make all the difference in terms of admission chances at college, what I meant was that I believe she would have had far more access to opportunities that would have fulfilled her while also being well regarded by American college counselors.

And I completely agree. College admissions has become absolutely insane. Takes so much more than it's worth.

[Lisafuller]

We are considering that too - probably after middle of Sec 2. However as O Levels can be used for admission to the schools we have in mind for NC we will probably have her complete her O levels.

Why NC? Do you have ties there?

I actually don't think submitting O level results for consideration offers the advantage you think it does. At 16, straight A's at the O levels with little to no extracurriculars makes it hard for student to have a strong case for admission. CCA really doesn't count. Also, schools today very rarely admit Applicants younger than 18 as there is a gap in terms of maturity.

My wife completed her O-levels in Singapore and went straight to college in the US at age 16. The university she attended is “more selective with an acceptance rate of 69%” — according to US News, but not among the top 100 national universities. After two years there, she was offered admission from Penn State, but transferred to my university where her sister was enrolled; that is where we met… and the rest, as they say, is history.

Oh, would be nice for your daughter to go to the alma mater of her parents, and she'd probably have a fantastic chance as both a strong student and legacy, but something tells me she'll only go for the best of the best.

[Lisafuller]

I am aware of two from the US: Broward Community College offers some courses here, up to associate degree, and SUNY Buffalo also offers courses here, up to bachelor degree. So yes, this is a possibility if you aren’t picky about the school, don’t might paying non-resident tuition and wanna stay in SG.

My kids have never lived off island, so it will do them good to experience the world outside. My son finds that it’s too sterile here and is looking forward to more action & excitement. He also thinks the culture wars and political shenanigans are hilarious. My daughter needs to get out even more, she has no idea what’s going on.

What I'm curious about, is how they don't rub off on each other. You to think that in spite of having such different experiences, being siblings, they'd share more similarities.

I wasn’t exaggerating when I said my daughter is studying in her room every waking hour, even on weekends. She went back to school this week, we can hardly tell the difference, because we hardly see her anyway. The only time she comes out is to eat meals, and lately that has become ever more brief due to the onslaught of testing.

As much as I respect her work ethic, I do feel sad for her.

These are supposed to be some of the best years of her life, and though she has a lot of great things in her future, and plenty of time to have fun, I wonder if she will regret the way she's spent her time.

[Lisafuller]

As for S4 O/IP4 to college or community college, I would also lean against this due to the age difference (although you will get back some of the differential due to the school calendar elsewhere). These are formative years for kids beyond just chasing an admissions ticket. Ultimately, if the above is the desired route, I would probably try to pick a school / school system, and let the kid finish Year 8 or Year 9 through Year 12 there. Of course, everyone has different constraints and some things or views develop over time, so this is not to say Year 11 or college/community college are wrong.

In the end, the university admission process and selection has got quite crazy over the years. I don't have anything against kids working hard, having ambition, and setting targets high or parents wanting the best for their kids and trying to give them every advantage possible, but it is also important not to let this whole ordeal become more than it is...

I agree that too much is made out of the whole thing. I was just trying to convince my wife last night that the cream will always rise to the top. We had a senior VP in our office who went to a very low raked university, that made absolutely no difference. We also had a PhD from an extremely high ranked university in our office, who went no where.

My daughter seems to have a stronger and stronger lean toward business, and for B-schools there are some really fantastic ones that are not difficult to get admission into. Among the top 10, Indiana University has the easiest admission. Without needing a perfect academic record, you can get access to an absolutely top notch B-school with a wide array of majors, many in the top 10 nationally.

For my own educational experience, I wouldn’t change a thing. I spent the last two years of high school attending half-day vocational-technical school (like ITE). I then went to community college for two years (like Polytechnic) while working part time, and then stopped working and transferred to university as a full time student for 3 more years to earn my bachelor. The first 2 years at university I lived in a dorm, which was a great experience. I feel like I got the best of all worlds, with the working experience and the variety of different educational experiences.

You're exactly right. I'd even argue that most people could do very well without college at all. The only disadvantage in a Singaporean context is that non-university graduates will always be paid less than graduates. I'm not sure if this changes at some point after some years of employment, but I understand it will be the case for at least several years once starting work.

[Lisafuller]

For me, I’m happy for my daughter to go to a more relaxed school, especially considering what she has been through… but I also understand my wife’s perspective — after all the work our daughter has put in and grades she has achieved, it is not just a waste, but a real shame if she doesn’t get into a school she deserves. For NUS, she has earned her pick of any major she wishes, medical, law, whatever.

I would rank NUS on par to a top 25 National University in the US. I don’t buy into the idea that NUS is comparable to a top 10, despite whatever ratings house might say otherwise. On global name recognition alone, they just aren’t as well known or respected outside of Asia.

I know what you are saying (or your wife's perspective) but as I've tried to tell you earlier it's not about effort. This is not a game where effort maps one to one to outcome. The real question is does an applicant have what the school wants? One can run a marathon every day for a year. If he/she tries out for the basketball team but can't shoot, it doesn't matter. The hard truth is there are hundreds, if not thousands, of kids that have put in the same (here and US). If it was that simple, everyone would get in. Regardless, best of luck and she may get it.

My understanding is that local medicine and law are based on a lot more than grades and A Level score. I don't know what she has received (offer letter, indication, etc) but you may want to double confirm that if passing up elsewhere.

I'm mixed on where to put NUS. Similar to your thought, if interviewing in NY I'm quite certain there are 10 US schools that will carry more weight. The number could easily be > 25 as well, but it starts getting blurry at some point, so it's kind of a pointless exercise or debate (more a statement that these global rankings don't transfer well). And this isn't a knock on NUS or anyone that goes there; the same applies to the top university in many nations.

If I'm not mistaken, the application process for NUS doesn't even begin until after A levels. At the very earliest, applicants will only begin the process next year.

And yes, from my understanding the process to apply for both medicine and law is far more involved than other majors. Both require a series of aptitude tests, interviews, and supplementary essays, if not mistaken.

If applying for medicine at NTU, applicants even have to take the BMAT test, as the program is run with Imperial College, London.

[NYY1]

...
My understanding is that local medicine and law are based on a lot more than grades and A Level score. I don't know what she has received (offer letter, indication, etc) but you may want to double confirm that if passing up elsewhere.
...

If I'm not mistaken, the application process for NUS doesn't even begin until after A levels. At the very earliest, applicants will only begin the process next year.

And yes, from my understanding the process to apply for both medicine and law is far more involved than other majors. Both require a series of aptitude tests, interviews, and supplementary essays, if not mistaken.

If applying for medicine at NTU, applicants even have to take the BMAT test, as the program is run with Imperial College, London.

The local uni's will make some offers before the A Level results are released. However, I am not sure if they apply to medicine and law (and probably dentistry and a few others).

[malcontent]

Oh, would be nice for your daughter to go to the alma mater of her parents, and she'd probably have a fantastic chance as both a strong student and legacy, but something tells me she'll only go for the best of the best.

My wife and I are still fond of our alma mater… but it’s not top 50 or even top 100… our daughter can get into schools that we could only dream about. As parents, we want to see our kids surpass us, and both will, swimmingly.

Besides, our daughter will not easily accept less than name brand school, and has already “threatened” to attend NUS if she can’t get admitted into a reasonable equivalent or better in the US. Don’t think she doesn’t have a say!

[Lisafuller]

...
My understanding is that local medicine and law are based on a lot more than grades and A Level score. I don't know what she has received (offer letter, indication, etc) but you may want to double confirm that if passing up elsewhere.
...

If I'm not mistaken, the application process for NUS doesn't even begin until after A levels. At the very earliest, applicants will only begin the process next year.

And yes, from my understanding the process to apply for both medicine and law is far more involved than other majors. Both require a series of aptitude tests, interviews, and supplementary essays, if not mistaken.

If applying for medicine at NTU, applicants even have to take the BMAT test, as the program is run with Imperial College, London.

The local uni's will make some offers before the A Level results are released. However, I am not sure if they apply to medicine and law (and probably dentistry and a few others).

https://medicine.nus.edu.sg/prospective ... -to-apply/

As I had suspected, the application period is only after the a level results release. I understand that the rank points are the primary criteria for admission, so it would be impossible to apply before results are out.

[Lisafuller]

Oh, would be nice for your daughter to go to the alma mater of her parents, and she'd probably have a fantastic chance as both a strong student and legacy, but something tells me she'll only go for the best of the best.

My wife and I are still fond of our alma mater… but it’s not top 50 or even top 100… our daughter can get into schools that we could only dream about. As parents, we want to see our kids surpass us, and both will, swimmingly.

Besides, our daughter will not easily accept less than name brand school, and has already “threatened” to attend NUS if she can’t get admitted into a reasonable equivalent or better in the US. Don’t think she doesn’t have a say!

Exactly. It will be such a source of pride and joy to have your kids surpass you.

And yes, never doubted otherwise. She definitely seems to be on top of her academic destiny.

[NYY1]

I understand that the school from which one graduates cannot make all the difference in terms of admission chances at college, what I meant was that I believe she would have had far more access to opportunities that would have fulfilled her while also being well regarded by American college counselors.

And I completely agree. College admissions has become absolutely insane. Takes so much more than it's worth.

OK, I understand what you are saying. I guess I was replying in the context of the discussion about changing paths and what not to try increase the chances.

As for whether it takes so much more than it's worth, I'm not sure I fully agree with that. When one understands what these schools are really looking for, it's something that the student wouldn't regret doing irrespective of the admissions outcome (which may be different from mugging). I believe that can be done in the local system, but it is not easy. Perhaps there are other avenues that more easily allow that.

Anyways, I hope your daughter is happy and excited about wherever she is going this fall, and that the time she spent in school here still impacted her in other positive ways (she was in one of the famed tracks for 12 years). Regards...

[malcontent]

Oh, would be nice for your daughter to go to the alma mater of her parents, and she'd probably have a fantastic chance as both a strong student and legacy, but something tells me she'll only go for the best of the best.

My wife and I are still fond of our alma mater… but it’s not top 50 or even top 100… our daughter can get into schools that we could only dream about. As parents, we want to see our kids surpass us, and both will, swimmingly.

Besides, our daughter will not easily accept less than name brand school, and has already “threatened” to attend NUS if she can’t get admitted into a reasonable equivalent or better in the US. Don’t think she doesn’t have a say!

Exactly. It will be such a source of pride and joy to have your kids surpass you.

And yes, never doubted otherwise. She definitely seems to be on top of her academic destiny.

I’ll be happy if she is happy. She hasn’t fully realized how behind she is on life, my hope is that she can make up for lost time in the US. It’s going to be a big change, but she needs it.

[Lisafuller]

My wife and I are still fond of our alma mater… but it’s not top 50 or even top 100… our daughter can get into schools that we could only dream about. As parents, we want to see our kids surpass us, and both will, swimmingly.

Besides, our daughter will not easily accept less than name brand school, and has already “threatened” to attend NUS if she can’t get admitted into a reasonable equivalent or better in the US. Don’t think she doesn’t have a say!

Exactly. It will be such a source of pride and joy to have your kids surpass you.

And yes, never doubted otherwise. She definitely seems to be on top of her academic destiny.

I’ll be happy if she is happy. She hasn’t fully realized how behind she is on life, my hope is that she can make up for lost time in the US. It’s going to be a big change, but she needs it.

You know, depending on which school she goes to and who she surrounds herself with, it's highly possible that the pattern could repeat itself for all four years. It's not uncommon for kids to be holed up in their rooms all year, heads buried in textbooks.

Very easy to get burnt out and disillusioned.

[Lisafuller]

I understand that the school from which one graduates cannot make all the difference in terms of admission chances at college, what I meant was that I believe she would have had far more access to opportunities that would have fulfilled her while also being well regarded by American college counselors.

And I completely agree. College admissions has become absolutely insane. Takes so much more than it's worth.

OK, I understand what you are saying. I guess I was replying in the context of the discussion about changing paths and what not to try increase the chances.

As for whether it takes so much more than it's worth, I'm not sure I fully agree with that. When one understands what these schools are really looking for, it's something that the student wouldn't regret doing irrespective of the admissions outcome (which may be different from mugging). I believe that can be done in the local system, but it is not easy. Perhaps there are other avenues that more easily allow that.

Anyways, I hope your daughter is happy and excited about wherever she is going this fall, and that the time she spent in school here still impacted her in other positive ways (she was in one of the famed tracks for 12 years). Regards...

Even if one understands precisely what each school is looking for, which, in itself is a tall order, there is so much density in terms of competition that there's a lot of luck that factors in as well.

Applicants today make themselves crazy trying to game the system, calculate their odds, similar to a lot of the PR/SC chances threads we see on the forum.

And yes, she's very excited for college, we just got our first tuition bill for the year, so I'm not as excited.