US university admissions

[Lisafuller]

I agree it's a problem. This is why we are planning to move my daughter back at the end of year 10 or secondary four. It gives us more time to get her into a state-specific system and state specific school. I myself grew up overseas as you may know and I moved back at the end of year 11 to get into a specific system for Western Australia. I think the practice of waiting for the end of year 12 to move back is in some cases a mistake if you are chasing a particularly competitive college to get into.

It's not uncommon for people to look at other options after Sec 4 (sometimes where you stand is a bit clearer at that point in time). If one just wants to establish residency and is happy with a variety of in-state options, leaving for Year 11 (and Year 12) is probably OK. If one really wants to compete for certain things, I would suggest leaving earlier, probably after Sec 2. In which case, one can ask why not leave (or switch systems) after P6.

We are considering that too - probably after middle of Sec 2. However as O Levels can be used for admission to the schools we have in mind for NC we will probably have her complete her O levels.

Why NC? Do you have ties there?

I actually don't think submitting O level results for consideration offers the advantage you think it does. At 16, straight A's at the O levels with little to no extracurriculars makes it hard for student to have a strong case for admission. CCA really doesn't count. Also, schools today very rarely admit Applicants younger than 18 as there is a gap in terms of maturity.

[Lisafuller]

It's not uncommon for people to look at other options after Sec 4 (sometimes where you stand is a bit clearer at that point in time). If one just wants to establish residency and is happy with a variety of in-state options, leaving for Year 11 (and Year 12) is probably OK. If one really wants to compete for certain things, I would suggest leaving earlier, probably after Sec 2. In which case, one can ask why not leave (or switch systems) after P6.

We are considering that too - probably after middle of Sec 2. However as O Levels can be used for admission to the schools we have in mind for NC we will probably have her complete her O levels.

I have heard UNC is notorious about preferring in-state students, so the best strategy for NC is probably 2 years community college and 2 years university. You can knock out most/all of the general electives (GE’s) which transfer 1-1, saving a bundle in tuition and still earning the same degree in the end (I did the same thing myself).

What’s interesting is that transfer students often have a higher admit rate than freshman (or… freshpeople, as the liberal mob now tells everyone we have to say), not at the ultra-selective schools in the top 10; but it is true as you get into the very selective schools in the top 30. They seem to have a vested interest in doing this in order to keep up appearances that they are very selective.

Community colleges in the same state as your target university will have experienced counselors that will advise you on exactly what is required GPA-wise to be admitted as a transfer student and also which courses will transfer. In some cases they even have guaranteed transfer programs, if you fulfill the criteria.

Not only will it be easier to get better grades at a community college versus a junior college here, but the target university will value the those courses and grades far more, and you get 1-1 transfer shaving a full 2 years off instead of 1 year (at best) with JC courses.

One trick my wife did not know, (which I did myself while at community college) you can simply drop courses if you are not confident about getting the needed grade. I dropped several, and probably wouldn’t have been accepted into my university if I hadn’t .

You're exactly right about using community college as a strategy to get into UNC. Their admissions process for out of state students is incredibly tough, as they are a state school, which has to reserve a significant portion of spots for in-state students. In some ways, this becomes very unfair for out-of-state students as the benchmarks for entry are worlds apart.

My daughter was waitlisted at UNC, which she was initially very crushed by, but when she applied this year for admission, she ended up excluding UNC altogether as her schools of interest had changed significantly.

[Lisafuller]

To be honest this ^^ is why I have been having serious misgivings about putting my daughter through JC here.

One thing I wish I’d known… despite being in IP, she still “graduated” from secondary school and as such received an official graduation certificate for completing secondary school. That certificate was all we needed to get into community college in the US.

Had she done that and went to community college in the state of her target university, I believe she would have better prospects as an in-state student, and it would have been a whole lot less stress - she is now taking JC2 midterms, then prelim tests start several weeks later, then A-levels… a perfect storm of full-on testing insanity!

Community colleges tend to be looked down on in the US, but what some people don't realize is that the quality of education offered at a community college can oftentimes be better than what you would find at a far more reputable 4 year institution. This is because while the faculty at these premier institutions typically have many other projects that they're working on at any given time, including their own publications and research, the staff at community colleges are solely focused on helping students learn.

The other day I read that there is a community college in California that costs seven dollars a semester. Seven!

[Lisafuller]

It's so interesting that you have two kids so close in age with such different school experiences. I'm assuming the boy speaks with an American accent because of his school environment, does your daughter?

I will respond on this thread. Yes, they have very different accents, almost two ends of the extreme. This becomes a real problem when they visit their grandparents who understand my son perfectly but struggle to make out half of what my daughter is saying (I even have a hard time on occasion), which frustrates her to no end. I’m hoping that attending college in the US will help, but from what I’ve read, language is pretty much set by early teens, except those blessed with flexible tongues.

This is exactly what I suspected. Do either speak a second language?

My daughter is especially unique when it comes to the way she speaks. She has an ability to code switch like I've never seen before. When speaking with family, she sounds completely American, when interacting with locals, she sounds no different than them. When speaking in semi-professional environments, like school or at her workplace, she adopts a more tempered accent, sort of a middle ground between the two.

We've got a couple American family friends with kids that were educated locally, and they, like your daughter, speak with a distinct local twang. They have retained none of their parents accents.

Not sure what the difference was with my daughter, we spoke about this once briefly, and she just told me that she has always made it a point to hold onto both her local and American accents (since young). Odd.

[Lisafuller]

The more common outcome seems to be US Resident abroad (Citizen or Green Card Holder) is treated as a domestic applicant (although this is not the case at all schools last time I checked a few). If you are talking UCLA (domestic out-of-state), there seems to be some conflicting information on the UCLA website and the UC System website.

UCLA (look at the FAQ):

https://admission.ucla.edu/apply/intern ... applicants


Will I be considered a domestic or international applicant if I am a U.S. Citizen but attended an international high school?
If you graduate from a high school outside of the U.S., then you are considered an international applicant. If you graduate from a high school located in the U.S., you are considered a domestic applicant. However, keep in mind this only applies to the application process and might not apply for in-state residency and tuition.

UC (look at the right side of the page):

https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... pplicants/

Who is an international applicant?
You’re an international applicant if you’re not a U.S. citizen or U.S. permanent resident.

Regardless, I'm with Lisa on this point; while the admit rate tends to be lower in the international bucket and the academic stats of kids admitted are sometimes higher, I don't think being in the domestic bucket necessarily makes things easier. Reason being that internationally educated students often compare more favourably with other international students (relative to one's strengths and weaknesses). Unfortunately, this is not a X% and Y% lucky draw (with X% > Y%). It is really about how one ranks vs. the competition.

I haven’t looked at all of the admission data, but at least for the UC schools my daughter is gunning for, the international bucket now has a lower acceptance rate than the out of state bucket.

As for what UC classifies as international, looking at the two statements, technically, they could both be true without conflicting with one another. It says you are an international student if you are not a US citizen… but that doesn’t preclude the possibility of a U.S. citizen being counted as an international student.

As far as international versus out-of-state applicants, I have to imagine that this has always been the case. International applicants are always disadvantaged as compared to out-of-state applicants in the admissions process.

[malcontent]

Sorry for the messages it's the only way I can reply easily offshore full stop the other option is to consider doing a university degree undergrad in Singapore. I know some kids in my wife's school who have used that as a method to then get into a specific school that they are interested in as either a graduate or as a undergrad with a first degree.

I am aware of two from the US: Broward Community College offers some courses here, up to associate degree, and SUNY Buffalo also offers courses here, up to bachelor degree. So yes, this is a possibility if you aren’t picky about the school, don’t might paying non-resident tuition and wanna stay in SG.

My kids have never lived off island, so it will do them good to experience the world outside. My son finds that it’s too sterile here and is looking forward to more action & excitement. He also thinks the culture wars and political shenanigans are hilarious. My daughter needs to get out even more, she has no idea what’s going on.

[Lisafuller]

Sorry for the messages it's the only way I can reply easily offshore full stop the other option is to consider doing a university degree undergrad in Singapore. I know some kids in my wife's school who have used that as a method to then get into a specific school that they are interested in as either a graduate or as a undergrad with a first degree.

I am aware of two from the US: Broward Community College offers some courses here, up to associate degree, and SUNY Buffalo also offers courses here, up to bachelor degree. So yes, this is a possibility if you aren’t picky about the school, don’t might paying non-resident tuition and wanna stay in SG.

My kids have never lived off island, so it will do them good to experience the world outside. My son finds that it’s too sterile here and is looking forward to more action & excitement. He also thinks the culture wars and political shenanigans are hilarious. My daughter needs to get out even more, she has no idea what’s going on.

What I'm curious about, is how they don't rub off on each other. You to think that in spite of having such different experiences, being siblings, they'd share more similarities.

[NYY1]

The more common outcome seems to be US Resident abroad (Citizen or Green Card Holder) is treated as a domestic applicant (although this is not the case at all schools last time I checked a few). If you are talking UCLA (domestic out-of-state), there seems to be some conflicting information on the UCLA website and the UC System website.

UCLA (look at the FAQ):

https://admission.ucla.edu/apply/intern ... applicants


Will I be considered a domestic or international applicant if I am a U.S. Citizen but attended an international high school?
If you graduate from a high school outside of the U.S., then you are considered an international applicant. If you graduate from a high school located in the U.S., you are considered a domestic applicant. However, keep in mind this only applies to the application process and might not apply for in-state residency and tuition.

UC (look at the right side of the page):

https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... pplicants/

Who is an international applicant?
You’re an international applicant if you’re not a U.S. citizen or U.S. permanent resident.

Regardless, I'm with Lisa on this point; while the admit rate tends to be lower in the international bucket and the academic stats of kids admitted are sometimes higher, I don't think being in the domestic bucket necessarily makes things easier. Reason being that internationally educated students often compare more favourably with other international students (relative to one's strengths and weaknesses). Unfortunately, this is not a X% and Y% lucky draw (with X% > Y%). It is really about how one ranks vs. the competition.

I haven’t looked at all of the admission data, but at least for the UC schools my daughter is gunning for, the international bucket now has a lower acceptance rate than the out of state bucket.

As for what UC classifies as international, looking at the two statements, technically, they could both be true without conflicting with one another. It says you are an international student if you are not a US citizen… but that doesn’t preclude the possibility of a U.S. citizen being counted as an international student.

I realised that is true, however, for the UC statement I don't know why they just wouldn't add on the end "or if you are a US Citizen educated abroad" (or something like that). Also, the reverse doesn't hold; the two statements would contradict each other for a US educated foreigner.

Here's what Berkeley says, and it seems to match the UC system. So I guess another slight variant of "domestic applicant with foreign credentials."

https://admissions.berkeley.edu/apply-t ... -students/

You are an international applicant if a visa is required to reside and study in the United States. A US citizen, permanent resident, refugee, or asylee who currently lives and studies outside the US is considered a domestic applicant with foreign credentials.

[NYY1]

My daughter wanted to go to Phillips Exeter Academy in Massachusetts fresh out of primary school, and in retrospect, she probably would have thrived there, but she had just gotten into RGS and we wanted to let her try it out. I don't know if we would do things differently given the chance, as she's made many great friends and done well for herself, but I do think she would've had a more well-rounded, balanced education there.

Responding to both this, your comment on Year 11 boarding school, and other replies. For me, there are several parts of Year 7 - Year 12 education;
a) what you learn (nuts and bolts)
b) bells and whistles for a) (depth, rigor, extra programmes, etc)
c) what you experience (school spirit, history, tradition, peers, etc)
d) how you parlay this into an admissions ticket for the next level.

I think maximizing c) (and b) often goes along with that) doesn't always help to optimize d), as often the competition is higher. Even for places like the school you list above, they cannot get everyone to their desired destinations. For better or worse, every university is only going to take in so many people from each country, state, school, etc. Essentially, I think people end up competing against peers (subset of the total applicants) that are most similar to them, and the aggregate university odds (admits / applicants) or a particular school's Year 12 placement stats only mean so much. Whatever the odds for both are, there are kids with dramatically higher and lower chances (depending on the circumstances).

Conversely, one can go to a well-funded public (for free) and potentially make it through too. However, the per school intakes (quotas) are probably smaller than those for some of the powerhouse feeder schools, so it is hard to know whether the odds are "better." I.e. you are one of the top ten students but if they will only take in two kids, nothing has really changed. There may be some instances where this strategy will give you a high chance at the in-state school (I'm not sure what all of the qualifying rules are any longer). If so, picking a state with UCLA/Berkeley, UNC, UVA, U Michigan, etc isn't a bad strategy; try to be reasonably sure of securing one of these and then you have an option on something above that (again, provided one wants to live in those states and can find suitable employment, visa, etc).

As for S4 O/IP4 to college or community college, I would also lean against this due to the age difference (although you will get back some of the differential due to the school calendar elsewhere). These are formative years for kids beyond just chasing an admissions ticket. Ultimately, if the above is the desired route, I would probably try to pick a school / school system, and let the kid finish Year 8 or Year 9 through Year 12 there. Of course, everyone has different constraints and some things or views develop over time, so this is not to say Year 11 or college/community college are wrong.

In the end, the university admission process and selection has got quite crazy over the years. I don't have anything against kids working hard, having ambition, and setting targets high or parents wanting the best for their kids and trying to give them every advantage possible, but it is also important not to let this whole ordeal become more than it is...

[malcontent]

Sorry for the messages it's the only way I can reply easily offshore full stop the other option is to consider doing a university degree undergrad in Singapore. I know some kids in my wife's school who have used that as a method to then get into a specific school that they are interested in as either a graduate or as a undergrad with a first degree.

I am aware of two from the US: Broward Community College offers some courses here, up to associate degree, and SUNY Buffalo also offers courses here, up to bachelor degree. So yes, this is a possibility if you aren’t picky about the school, don’t might paying non-resident tuition and wanna stay in SG.

My kids have never lived off island, so it will do them good to experience the world outside. My son finds that it’s too sterile here and is looking forward to more action & excitement. He also thinks the culture wars and political shenanigans are hilarious. My daughter needs to get out even more, she has no idea what’s going on.

What I'm curious about, is how they don't rub off on each other. You to think that in spite of having such different experiences, being siblings, they'd share more similarities.

I wasn’t exaggerating when I said my daughter is studying in her room every waking hour, even on weekends. She went back to school this week, we can hardly tell the difference, because we hardly see her anyway. The only time she comes out is to eat meals, and lately that has become ever more brief due to the onslaught of testing.

[malcontent]

As for S4 O/IP4 to college or community college, I would also lean against this due to the age difference (although you will get back some of the differential due to the school calendar elsewhere). These are formative years for kids beyond just chasing an admissions ticket. Ultimately, if the above is the desired route, I would probably try to pick a school / school system, and let the kid finish Year 8 or Year 9 through Year 12 there. Of course, everyone has different constraints and some things or views develop over time, so this is not to say Year 11 or college/community college are wrong.

In the end, the university admission process and selection has got quite crazy over the years. I don't have anything against kids working hard, having ambition, and setting targets high or parents wanting the best for their kids and trying to give them every advantage possible, but it is also important not to let this whole ordeal become more than it is...

I agree that too much is made out of the whole thing. I was just trying to convince my wife last night that the cream will always rise to the top. We had a senior VP in our office who went to a very low raked university, that made absolutely no difference. We also had a PhD from an extremely high ranked university in our office, who went no where.

My daughter seems to have a stronger and stronger lean toward business, and for B-schools there are some really fantastic ones that are not difficult to get admission into. Among the top 10, Indiana University has the easiest admission. Without needing a perfect academic record, you can get access to an absolutely top notch B-school with a wide array of majors, many in the top 10 nationally.

For my own educational experience, I wouldn’t change a thing. I spent the last two years of high school attending half-day vocational-technical school (like ITE). I then went to community college for two years (like Polytechnic) while working part time, and then stopped working and transferred to university as a full time student for 3 more years to earn my bachelor. The first 2 years at university I lived in a dorm, which was a great experience. I feel like I got the best of all worlds, with the working experience and the variety of different educational experiences.

[malcontent]

It's not uncommon for people to look at other options after Sec 4 (sometimes where you stand is a bit clearer at that point in time). If one just wants to establish residency and is happy with a variety of in-state options, leaving for Year 11 (and Year 12) is probably OK. If one really wants to compete for certain things, I would suggest leaving earlier, probably after Sec 2. In which case, one can ask why not leave (or switch systems) after P6.

We are considering that too - probably after middle of Sec 2. However as O Levels can be used for admission to the schools we have in mind for NC we will probably have her complete her O levels.

Why NC? Do you have ties there?

I actually don't think submitting O level results for consideration offers the advantage you think it does. At 16, straight A's at the O levels with little to no extracurriculars makes it hard for student to have a strong case for admission. CCA really doesn't count. Also, schools today very rarely admit Applicants younger than 18 as there is a gap in terms of maturity.

My wife completed her O-levels in Singapore and went straight to college in the US at age 16. The university she attended is “more selective with an acceptance rate of 69%” — according to US News, but not among the top 100 national universities. After two years there, she was offered admission from Penn State, but transferred to my university where her sister was enrolled; that is where we met… and the rest, as they say, is history.

[NYY1]

I agree that too much is made out of the whole thing. I was just trying to convince my wife last night that the cream will always rise to the top. We had a senior VP in our office who went to a very low raked university, that made absolutely no difference. We also had a PhD from an extremely high ranked university in our office, who went no where.

My daughter seems to have a stronger and stronger lean toward business, and for B-schools there are some really fantastic ones that are not difficult to get admission into. Among the top 10, Indiana University has the easiest admission. Without needing a perfect academic record, you can get access to an absolutely top notch B-school with a wide array of majors, many in the top 10 nationally.
...

Yes, Indiana's Business School is rated much higher than the overall university (which still isn't bad by any means). Last time I checked, the business school's starting salaries were also higher than the business school starting salaries of some of the nearby (general proximity in the US) universities. Most of this is placement to the two coasts though, which have more higher paying industries/jobs (and higher cost of living). I don't think Kelley is quite up to the ranks as Ross (U Michigan), but I think it does much better in getting national placement for grads vs. many of the other schools (which rank as high or higher on an overall basis), which are mainly regional intake and placement.

Honestly, don't worry so much. At this point, the path your daughter is on cannot be undone, so just finish it off and see what happens. One option, apply UCLA and if don't get it go to one of the CA CCs and try to transfer. Worst case, she probably ends up at one of the other UCs, which may be one of the initial Uni 1 options as well. Or, cast the net out to some of the other top business schools and see what happens. The U Penn / MIT / NYU / etc still won't be easy but chances to the others (like IU) should be decent.

[malcontent]

Honestly, don't worry so much. At this point, the path your daughter is on cannot be undone, so just finish it off and see what happens. One option, apply UCLA and if don't get it go to one of the CA CCs and try to transfer. Worst case, she probably ends up at one of the other UCs, which may be one of the initial Uni 1 options as well. Or, cast the net out to some of the other top business schools and see what happens. The U Penn / MIT / NYU / etc still won't be easy but chances to the others (like IU) should be decent.

For me, I’m happy for my daughter to go to a more relaxed school, especially considering what she has been through… but I also understand my wife’s perspective — after all the work our daughter has put in and grades she has achieved, it is not just a waste, but a real shame if she doesn’t get into a school she deserves. For NUS, she has earned her pick of any major she wishes, medical, law, whatever.

I would rank NUS on par to a top 25 National University in the US. I don’t buy into the idea that NUS is comparable to a top 10, despite whatever ratings house might say otherwise. On global name recognition alone, they just aren’t as well known or respected outside of Asia.

[NYY1]

For me, I’m happy for my daughter to go to a more relaxed school, especially considering what she has been through… but I also understand my wife’s perspective — after all the work our daughter has put in and grades she has achieved, it is not just a waste, but a real shame if she doesn’t get into a school she deserves. For NUS, she has earned her pick of any major she wishes, medical, law, whatever.

I would rank NUS on par to a top 25 National University in the US. I don’t buy into the idea that NUS is comparable to a top 10, despite whatever ratings house might say otherwise. On global name recognition alone, they just aren’t as well known or respected outside of Asia.

I know what you are saying (or your wife's perspective) but as I've tried to tell you earlier it's not about effort. This is not a game where effort maps one to one to outcome. The real question is does an applicant have what the school wants? One can run a marathon every day for a year. If he/she tries out for the basketball team but can't shoot, it doesn't matter. The hard truth is there are hundreds, if not thousands, of kids that have put in the same (here and US). If it was that simple, everyone would get in. Regardless, best of luck and she may get it.

My understanding is that local medicine and law are based on a lot more than grades and A Level score. I don't know what she has received (offer letter, indication, etc) but you may want to double confirm that if passing up elsewhere.

I'm mixed on where to put NUS. Similar to your thought, if interviewing in NY I'm quite certain there are 10 US schools that will carry more weight. The number could easily be > 25 as well, but it starts getting blurry at some point, so it's kind of a pointless exercise or debate (more a statement that these global rankings don't transfer well). And this isn't a knock on NUS or anyone that goes there; the same applies to the top university in many nations.