PR Approval Chance 2023

[Lisafuller]

after getting my initial EP rejected twice and my PR rejected as well, I’m clearly not wanted here… I just don’t seem to take the hint

From what I remember from your post history, all these rejections happened in the late 90s when you just arrived in SG, isn’t it? Things operated differently back then. If they truly don’t want ya, you wouldn’t still be on EP for 20+ years. IMO you probably applied for PR way too soon and should have waited a couple of years after working/marriage.

EPs are given because of employers though...

[Lisafuller]

after getting my initial EP rejected twice and my PR rejected as well, I’m clearly not wanted here… I just don’t seem to take the hint

From what I remember from your post history, all these rejections happened in the late 90s when you just arrived in SG, isn’t it? Things operated differently back then. If they truly don’t want ya, you wouldn’t still be on EP for 20+ years. IMO you probably applied for PR way too soon and should have waited a couple of years after working/marriage.

I’d say my EP renewals over the years are more indicative of my employer wanting me; but true enough - I haven’t tried reapplying for PR in over 20 years.

Of course, my comment was intended to be partly in jest. But here are the brass tacks… how much I am wanted (or unwanted) here is relative to who you compare with. Had I been a Malaysian Chinese, my EP would have almost certainly been approved on the first attempt. When I was first hired, it was with a batch of 3 others (identical jobs, identical pay) and one was Malaysian Chinese — he had no issues at all. When I applied for PR (around 3 years later) my BIL who is Malaysian Chinese was approved for PR around the same time that I applied, and he had a lower paying job. Both of us were yet to be married at the time. Keep in mind, PR was much easier to get back then. I believed that my odds of approval were decent at that time.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not bitter about it, I believe everything happens for a reason. Had I been approved for PR back then, I probably would have job hopped and missed out on the great career I had by sticking with my employer. And because of that career, I found no need to reattempt PR, especially since my employer provides a substitute for CPF.

I feel the same way. If you had been granted PR and eventually moved up to SC status, you would've had to renounce your American citizenship, which would make moving back to the US when your daughter eventually goes to college kind of a pain.

[malcontent]

From what I remember from your post history, all these rejections happened in the late 90s when you just arrived in SG, isn’t it? Things operated differently back then. If they truly don’t want ya, you wouldn’t still be on EP for 20+ years. IMO you probably applied for PR way too soon and should have waited a couple of years after working/marriage.

I’d say my EP renewals over the years are more indicative of my employer wanting me; but true enough - I haven’t tried reapplying for PR in over 20 years.

Of course, my comment was intended to be partly in jest. But here are the brass tacks… how much I am wanted (or unwanted) here is relative to who you compare with. Had I been a Malaysian Chinese, my EP would have almost certainly been approved on the first attempt. When I was first hired, it was with a batch of 3 others (identical jobs, identical pay) and one was Malaysian Chinese — he had no issues at all. When I applied for PR (around 3 years later) my BIL who is Malaysian Chinese was approved for PR around the same time that I applied, and he had a lower paying job. Both of us were yet to be married at the time. Keep in mind, PR was much easier to get back then. I believed that my odds of approval were decent at that time.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not bitter about it, I believe everything happens for a reason. Had I been approved for PR back then, I probably would have job hopped and missed out on the great career I had by sticking with my employer. And because of that career, I found no need to reattempt PR, especially since my employer provides a substitute for CPF.

I feel the same way. If you had been granted PR and eventually moved up to SC status, you would've had to renounce your American citizenship, which would make moving back to the US when your daughter eventually goes to college kind of a pain.

There could have been even more benefits by localizing early. I could have saved a whole lot of FICA tax, earned a whole lot of CPF interest and saved a whole lot of school fees. If my son was a SC he’d probably have gone to local school, my daughter would probably be going to NUS next year.

It’s hard to say one path is more advantageous than the other. We didn’t plan to be on the path we are on, it was just a result of making (what we believed were) the best choices at the given times, given the circumstances and opportunities.

[nishaleon]

Easy even with S pass as a young degreed female Malaysian Chinese. However, take note that there is a very distinct probability of being rejected if you apply after only being employed in Sg for 6 or 7 months. It's a safer bet to wait until your S pass has been renewed once before applying (e.g., 24 consecutive months of employment, even if you are of the chosen race/country. However, if rejection will have no impact on your psyche then go ahead and donate your $100 to the Sg Government. They will gladly take it. And who knows, you 'might' get lucky....but please, don't hold your breath. It's a rare happenstance, even for M'sian Chinese. (Unless you are a PhD holding neurosurgeon or rocket scientist).

you provided expresses a personal opinion and experience regarding the chances of PR approval in Singapore for a young, degreed female Malaysian Chinese holding an S Pass. The comment suggests that there is a higher probability of being rejected if the PR application is made after only being employed in Singapore for a short period of time (e.g., 6 or 7 months). It also mentions that it might be safer to wait until the S Pass has been renewed once, indicating a longer period of employment (e.g., 24 consecutive months) before applying for PR. The comment further implies that unless the applicant possesses exceptional qualifications such as being a PhD-holding neurosurgeon or rocket scientist, the chances of PR approval might be relatively rare. However, it's important to note that individual circumstances can vary, and the final decision rests with the Immigration and Checkpoints Authority (ICA) in Singapore.

[Lisafuller]

I’d say my EP renewals over the years are more indicative of my employer wanting me; but true enough - I haven’t tried reapplying for PR in over 20 years.

Of course, my comment was intended to be partly in jest. But here are the brass tacks… how much I am wanted (or unwanted) here is relative to who you compare with. Had I been a Malaysian Chinese, my EP would have almost certainly been approved on the first attempt. When I was first hired, it was with a batch of 3 others (identical jobs, identical pay) and one was Malaysian Chinese — he had no issues at all. When I applied for PR (around 3 years later) my BIL who is Malaysian Chinese was approved for PR around the same time that I applied, and he had a lower paying job. Both of us were yet to be married at the time. Keep in mind, PR was much easier to get back then. I believed that my odds of approval were decent at that time.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not bitter about it, I believe everything happens for a reason. Had I been approved for PR back then, I probably would have job hopped and missed out on the great career I had by sticking with my employer. And because of that career, I found no need to reattempt PR, especially since my employer provides a substitute for CPF.

I feel the same way. If you had been granted PR and eventually moved up to SC status, you would've had to renounce your American citizenship, which would make moving back to the US when your daughter eventually goes to college kind of a pain.

There could have been even more benefits by localizing early. I could have saved a whole lot of FICA tax, earned a whole lot of CPF interest and saved a whole lot of school fees. If my son was a SC he’d probably have gone to local school, my daughter would probably be going to NUS next year.

It’s hard to say one path is more advantageous than the other. We didn’t plan to be on the path we are on, it was just a result of making (what we believed were) the best choices at the given times, given the circumstances and opportunities.

Why did your daughter go to local schools?

[malcontent]

Why did your daughter go to local schools?

It is the default path for kids from almost any family who is here long-term. We started our kids in the local system, they both did a full 4 years in local N1-K2 (prep for local primary). Both went through P1 registration as well. The key difference - - my daughter got in before they changed the rules, and the local system simply suited her. Despite the downsides, local school has its strengths, and is far more economical if your kids can thrive in it.

[Lisafuller]

Why did your daughter go to local schools?

It is the default path for kids from almost any family who is here long-term. We started our kids in the local system, they both did a full 4 years in local N1-K2 (prep for local primary). Both went through P1 registration as well. The key difference - - my daughter got in before they changed the rules, and the local system simply suited her. Despite the downsides, local school has its strengths, and is far more economical if your kids can thrive in it.

Oh, so your daughter is the eldest. Must be really interesting to have two kids in completely different environments, with vastly different experiences. Glad that they're both in the system which suits them.

[abdullah89]

The same is how I feel. If you had been awarded PR and later advanced to SC status, you would have had to lose your US citizenship, which would make returning to the US once your daughter enters college quite difficult.

[deepthemd]

Integration isn't something that can be 'documented'. However, ICA has 100's if not 1000's of field agents that you wouldn't know from adam as they don't wear uniforms and are locals and mixed easily in the field. If your file is assigned to caseworker, they may assign it to one of their field agents to suss out over a period of time. This is easy to do. They will compile their finding and opinions, e.g., appearance of genuine or forced interaction, like the contributions debacle that your countrymen completely disabled by using it and as soon as they got PR that was it, didn't see them anymore. It became rather obvious after a time that it was all a ruse and not an altruistic gesture on the part of the person. It was only for them gaining something as opposed to them helping others from the heart. Field agents have no distinguishing characteristics but are pretty good judges of character.

Oh, and you are correct, testimonials are a waste of time and energy. They amount to about as much help as a cover letter which is nothing more that an applicant trying to blow smoke where there is none. That's why they don't accept cover letters either. Good example with your reference to your ability with Mandarin and more so Hokkien. If you were in a kopitiam or some such and there was a table full of locals sit down behind you and order their food, you would think nothing of it. However as everybody speaks loudly here, especially in open eating houses. Should an agent that was in that crowd overhear you genuinely & comfortably conversing in either Mandarin or Hokkien with friends or colleagues it is impressive to anybody who might happen to know you are not local. This is an honest attempt at integration and doesn't go unnoticed. It's more a state of mind.

I've always been in awe of my wife, who is a local Tamil, as she fluently speaks Tamil, Malay & English and can be in mixed company and hear multiple conversations at the table and reply instantaneously to each speaking in whichever of the 3 languages they are speaking and most comfortable in. I have all I can do with just my farmboy English.

Hang in there, work on a promotion or major salary band elevation and continue with integration.
24 months from rejection, reapply. Don't jump the gun, it tends to give ICA the idea that you are desperate as opposed to desirous.

Keep us posted on how you go.

Hello everyone,

Back again on this forum! Looking to re-apply in 3Q 2024 and this would perhaps be my last attempt before pursuing plan B

Female Indian
Age: 33
Applying for: Myself (Single)
Education: Masters from local uni NTU
Time in SG: ~10 years ( ~8 yrs employed)
Occupation: Lead Sustainability Engineer
Salary: 88k+ Bonus pa on EP (renewed EP in 2023 in same company for 3 years)

Background:

Rejected in 2022. Havent applied since.

Profile Changes
- 15 % increase in Base Pay and Title change
- Completed Certifications in ESG sustainability Strategies from GARP, IE Business School
- Completed HSK3 in Mandarin and Conversational Hokkien from Singapore Hokkien Huay Kuan (SHHK) for interaction with elderly
- Speak fluent Tamil and Learning Conversational Malay
- Active participation in my area's Youth Network (under PA) Advise and plan youth-based environmental events (tree planting, earth hour)
- Contributor to company's strategy towards Net Zero emissions

I donot have an option to apply via FTS and intend to apply via PTS scheme. I haven't done my Bachelor degree in SG nor do I intend doing a PhD here. I have observed a number of fellow countryfolk with a local PhD getting approved in sizeable numbers regardless of marital status/pass type/length of stay recently (perhaps I am seeing a limited pattern)

Think that I have progressed in areas that were within my control before reapplying.

Feel free to be brutal on my chances, the pros and cons and what can be improved .Look forward to your feedback. Thank you !

[hopeislife]

Hi deepthemd,
As someone who has gone through the journey I would like to give you my opinion and warnings as you have mentioned that you are ok to hear critical comments. If you can see my old posts, my major reason to reply to many posts here is to give them the ground reality of the situation regarding pr especially for Indians. Because many indians often dont realize the difficulties and keep trying only to be disappointed after trying for more then 10years. And getting this realization that it is not possible to get pr even after a decade of stay can be very painful, which is why I try to post or communicate to many indians here so that at least a few can learn about the difficulties in the first few years so they can prepare their mind.

The following are just my opinions and facts based on my own experience and from my circle and this forum. My statements here are not to demotivate you but to straight away say the problematic factors in your case.

Hello everyone,

Back again on this forum! Looking to re-apply in 3Q 2024 and this would perhaps be my last attempt before pursuing plan B

Female Indian
Age: 33
Applying for: Myself (Single)
Education: Masters from local uni NTU
Time in SG: ~10 years ( ~8 yrs employed)
Occupation: Lead Sustainability Engineer
Salary: 88k+ Bonus pa on EP (renewed EP in 2023 in same company for 3 years)

-If you have read many posts here, there are many indians who have done masters in sg, including me. From my observation i believe at least more than half of the indian applicants applying for pr have some form of local education (school, uni, masters, phd). Before 2010, having a local masters degree could have helped in pr, but nowadays local masters does not help too much, as many indians have it.
- Another problem is you are single. I dont know what are the family situations surrounding you or i dont know if you have some valid reason to not marry now. However, when it comes to pr usually ICA look at the marriage or family factor especially if your age is around 30. Your chances could have been better if you have been married now and applied together. Again it depends on whether you marry from India or someone local. I can somewhat understand your problems as I am tamil too.

- Your length of stay in sg is 10yrs which is good but from my observation (and even if you look at my old posts) an average length of stay for an indian applicant applying pr is 8 to 10 years. So again, your length of stay would just look normal in ICA's view. This is factor is not too supportive at the same time is not bad either.

- Sustainability may be a good field to work but since you are already rejected last time with the same job role, i am not sure if they are really considering job aspect to support you this time.

- Salary is not high. The usual salaries that these indian applicants have around 30 is 100k to 150k being in IT or finance. Ofcourse, i understand being in core fields the salary may not be high. Salary part is somewhat ok in my opinion.

Background:

Rejected in 2022. Havent applied since.

Profile Changes
- 15 % increase in Base Pay and Title change
- Completed Certifications in ESG sustainability Strategies from GARP, IE Business School
- Completed HSK3 in Mandarin and Conversational Hokkien from Singapore Hokkien Huay Kuan (SHHK) for interaction with elderly
- Speak fluent Tamil and Learning Conversational Malay
- Active participation in my area's Youth Network (under PA) Advise and plan youth-based environmental events (tree planting, earth hour)
- Contributor to company's strategy towards Net Zero emissions

I understand the pain you take to differentiate and highlight the changes you made from last time, but all these changes are not a significant factor. 15% increase in salary is something good to have, but wont be a decision changing aspect. Regarding your certifications there are many indians who keep doing certifications related to their jobs just for the purpose of improving their profile for the pr. Infact everybody like you will be doing some form of certifications every year as they need to show it in their KPI (key performance index). Its good to do these certifications but i dont think it helps much regarding pr. Also doing mandarin certifications and doing voluntary activities have become an usual method for indians to increase their chances for pr application and ICA can clearly see the purpose of it. Learning mandarin takes time apart from your job and being indian if you ask your own consciousness "why am i learning mandarin?" and if the answer is "for pr" then ica will simply ignore this and they can see through it. Because many do this to improve their pr chance, and may be you got influenced by someone that learning mandarin will be seen as more integration, however this may not be the case. Its ok to learn mandarin if you like, but ica does not say you will get more score in integration factor if you are well versed in mandarin. If you just search the words 'mandarin certification' in this forum you can find many posts stating they have also done and they are mostly indians. Also, being indian tamil is also not going to help too much as this category is also oversubscribed. If you are malaysian tamil then that is a different story and can get better approval chances.

I donot have an option to apply via FTS and intend to apply via PTS scheme. I haven't done my Bachelor degree in SG nor do I intend doing a PhD here. I have observed a number of fellow countryfolk with a local PhD getting approved in sizeable numbers regardless of marital status/pass type/length of stay recently (perhaps I am seeing a limited pattern)

The pattern you see is somewhat correct and not limited. If you do a local diploma in your teens or do local uni your chances are much greater than a masters or phd. Also, not all local phds are approved, so hope you understand that too. Your statement that local phd getting approved in sizeable numbers regardless of marital status/pass type/stay length, is not true. Even with a local phd these factors can play critical role. I got married after my pr application and i have been here for 8yrs at the time of application, but it still took them close to 2years (22 months) to approve me. That is the level of competition as the number of indian pr applicants are very high. I personally feel that each year the number of indian applicants for pr is increasing at least by few hundreds. Even i have seen some posts where an indian girl who done local uni here was rejected for pr till now. see this link
viewtopic.php?t=152876

One key reason why phds get approved is they have invested time, money and work here which is not easy. Also, due to their longer academic period in university it also contributes some points for integration factor and ica feels they have more chance to contribute. The same goes for local uni students, as they are molded into society early in their life.

Think that I have progressed in areas that were within my control before reapplying.

Feel free to be brutal on my chances, the pros and cons and what can be improved .Look forward to your feedback. Thank you !

Yes, i can see you have tried something to progress. Keep doing your mandarin certifications, or voluntary activities or job certifications, but dont have high hopes on it to have high impact to change your pr decision as 'approved'. The problem is there are many indians with similar profile like yours. Things that can be improved could be you getting married and starting a family, but i dont know what your situation is. So i am just suggesting if marriage is soon to happen then good.

[hopeislife]

Feel free to be brutal on my chances, the pros and cons and what can be improved .Look forward to your feedback. Thank you !

I would like to give you an example of another indians pr attempts story which i read in another forum. I can feel his pain when i read his post but it is also a lesson to learn.

I will share the link here and it will direct to 'singapore expat' forum. I am not sure if it is ok or not ok to paste other site link here.. But if any moderators find it is not acceptable then you can edit it.

You can read the indian guys pr attempt story here .
https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 14#5649762

[deepthemd]

Hi deepthemd,
As someone who has gone through the journey I would like to give you my opinion and warnings as you have mentioned that you are ok to hear critical comments. If you can see my old posts, my major reason to reply to many posts here is to give them the ground reality of the situation regarding pr especially for Indians. Because many indians often dont realize the difficulties and keep trying only to be disappointed after trying for more then 10years. And getting this realization that it is not possible to get pr even after a decade of stay can be very painful, which is why I try to post or communicate to many indians here so that at least a few can learn about the difficulties in the first few years so they can prepare their mind.

The following are just my opinions and facts based on my own experience and from my circle and this forum. My statements here are not to demotivate you but to straight away say the problematic factors in your case.

Hello everyone,

Back again on this forum! Looking to re-apply in 3Q 2024 and this would perhaps be my last attempt before pursuing plan B

Female Indian
Age: 33
Applying for: Myself (Single)
Education: Masters from local uni NTU
Time in SG: ~10 years ( ~8 yrs employed)
Occupation: Lead Sustainability Engineer
Salary: 88k+ Bonus pa on EP (renewed EP in 2023 in same company for 3 years)

-If you have read many posts here, there are many indians who have done masters in sg, including me. From my observation i believe at least more than half of the indian applicants applying for pr have some form of local education (school, uni, masters, phd). Before 2010, having a local masters degree could have helped in pr, but nowadays local masters does not help too much, as many indians have it.
- Another problem is you are single. I dont know what are the family situations surrounding you or i dont know if you have some valid reason to not marry now. However, when it comes to pr usually ICA look at the marriage or family factor especially if your age is around 30. Your chances could have been better if you have been married now and applied together. Again it depends on whether you marry from India or someone local. I can somewhat understand your problems as I am tamil too.

- Your length of stay in sg is 10yrs which is good but from my observation (and even if you look at my old posts) an average length of stay for an indian applicant applying pr is 8 to 10 years. So again, your length of stay would just look normal in ICA's view. This is factor is not too supportive at the same time is not bad either.

- Sustainability may be a good field to work but since you are already rejected last time with the same job role, i am not sure if they are really considering job aspect to support you this time.

- Salary is not high. The usual salaries that these indian applicants have around 30 is 100k to 150k being in IT or finance. Ofcourse, i understand being in core fields the salary may not be high. Salary part is somewhat ok in my opinion.

Background:

Rejected in 2022. Havent applied since.

Profile Changes
- 15 % increase in Base Pay and Title change
- Completed Certifications in ESG sustainability Strategies from GARP, IE Business School
- Completed HSK3 in Mandarin and Conversational Hokkien from Singapore Hokkien Huay Kuan (SHHK) for interaction with elderly
- Speak fluent Tamil and Learning Conversational Malay
- Active participation in my area's Youth Network (under PA) Advise and plan youth-based environmental events (tree planting, earth hour)
- Contributor to company's strategy towards Net Zero emissions

I understand the pain you take to differentiate and highlight the changes you made from last time, but all these changes are not a significant factor. 15% increase in salary is something good to have, but wont be a decision changing aspect. Regarding your certifications there are many indians who keep doing certifications related to their jobs just for the purpose of improving their profile for the pr. Infact everybody like you will be doing some form of certifications every year as they need to show it in their KPI (key performance index). Its good to do these certifications but i dont think it helps much regarding pr. Also doing mandarin certifications and doing voluntary activities have become an usual method for indians to increase their chances for pr application and ICA can clearly see the purpose of it. Learning mandarin takes time apart from your job and being indian if you ask your own consciousness "why am i learning mandarin?" and if the answer is "for pr" then ica will simply ignore this and they can see through it. Because many do this to improve their pr chance, and may be you got influenced by someone that learning mandarin will be seen as more integration, however this may not be the case. Its ok to learn mandarin if you like, but ica does not say you will get more score in integration factor if you are well versed in mandarin. If you just search the words 'mandarin certification' in this forum you can find many posts stating they have also done and they are mostly indians. Also, being indian tamil is also not going to help too much as this category is also oversubscribed. If you are malaysian tamil then that is a different story and can get better approval chances.

I donot have an option to apply via FTS and intend to apply via PTS scheme. I haven't done my Bachelor degree in SG nor do I intend doing a PhD here. I have observed a number of fellow countryfolk with a local PhD getting approved in sizeable numbers regardless of marital status/pass type/length of stay recently (perhaps I am seeing a limited pattern)

The pattern you see is somewhat correct and not limited. If you do a local diploma in your teens or do local uni your chances are much greater than a masters or phd. Also, not all local phds are approved, so hope you understand that too. Your statement that local phd getting approved in sizeable numbers regardless of marital status/pass type/stay length, is not true. Even with a local phd these factors can play critical role. I got married after my pr application and i have been here for 8yrs at the time of application, but it still took them close to 2years (22 months) to approve me. That is the level of competition as the number of indian pr applicants are very high. I personally feel that each year the number of indian applicants for pr is increasing at least by few hundreds. Even i have seen some posts where an indian girl who done local uni here was rejected for pr till now. see this link
viewtopic.php?t=152876

One key reason why phds get approved is they have invested time, money and work here which is not easy. Also, due to their longer academic period in university it also contributes some points for integration factor and ica feels they have more chance to contribute. The same goes for local uni students, as they are molded into society early in their life.

Think that I have progressed in areas that were within my control before reapplying.

Feel free to be brutal on my chances, the pros and cons and what can be improved .Look forward to your feedback. Thank you !

Yes, i can see you have tried something to progress. Keep doing your mandarin certifications, or voluntary activities or job certifications, but dont have high hopes on it to have high impact to change your pr decision as 'approved'. The problem is there are many indians with similar profile like yours. Things that can be improved could be you getting married and starting a family, but i dont know what your situation is. So i am just suggesting if marriage is soon to happen then good.

Thanks a lot for the feedback and reality check. Appreciate the extensive research you have undertaken to burst "hope bubbles" from countryfolk. I understand the intent to prepare people for disappointment.

I am practical enough to understand that my profile does not reflect a monumental change. I took my first rejection quite hard, but I know better now. I am very well aware not to wrest high hopes because of my nationality and many other cons that you have highlighted in excruciating detail.

To me, Mandarin is a global advantage, I learnt it only because of its utility across the world and not specifically to Singapore. So your point about "getting influenced by others" may not be valid Hokkien on the other hand was out of curiosity given my interest in languages. My volunteerism is purely based on my passion for sustainability and I haven't involved myself in any other causes.

Anyway, atleast I got the feedback from a fresh pair of eyes. Perhaps ICA may view it exactly the same as you or may view it differently.

As the moderators here say, you buys your ticket and wait without hopes (which is probably the only lesson to be learnt). Let me see if they have anything different to say this time.

On a lighter note and purely in jest, I find it amusing that your handle name is hopeislife and you advise people not to have hopes. Cheers mate! thanks for taking the time to write. Best wishes to you!

[hopeislife]

Thanks a lot for the feedback and reality check. Appreciate the extensive research you have undertaken to burst "hope bubbles" from countryfolk. I understand the intent to prepare people for disappointment.

I am practical enough to understand that my profile does not reflect a monumental change. I took my first rejection quite hard, but I know better now. I am very well aware not to wrest high hopes because of my nationality and many other cons that you have highlighted in excruciating detail.

To me, Mandarin is a global advantage, I learnt it only because of its utility across the world and not specifically to Singapore. So your point about "getting influenced by others" may not be valid Hokkien on the other hand was out of curiosity given my interest in languages. My volunteerism is purely based on my passion for sustainability and I haven't involved myself in any other causes.

Anyway, atleast I got the feedback from a fresh pair of eyes. Perhaps ICA may view it exactly the same as you or may view it differently.

As the moderators here say, you buys your ticket and wait without hopes (which is probably the only lesson to be learnt). Let me see if they have anything different to say this time.

On a lighter note and purely in jest, I find it amusing that your handle name is hopeislife and you advise people not to have hopes. Cheers mate! thanks for taking the time to write. Best wishes to you!

Hi deepthemd, I dont know if my words have hurt you in anyway, and if it is so, i apologize. My intention is not to burst your "hope bubble" and not to be a bad vibe. Also, its not that im preparing people for disappointment, but for them to know the toughness of getting pr for indians (especially if they landed as first gen a few years ago) in today's scenario, so they can double their efforts.

I did not mean to say that you learnt mandarin or do volunteering for getting pr and sorry if you felt that way. You may be really interested in doing it and that is why i said continue doing those things. However, there are many whom i personally know who just do these for pr purpose as there are some pr agencies that suggests their clients to do such mandarin learning and volunteering to improve profile.

I do accept the saying that you buy your ticket and wait without hopes. Please apply this year and only ica can see a better view of your profile than us and you can update here the outcome. Like i have said before, everything i have said is just my opinion. May be ICA will favour you since you have some positives like length of stay, some local degree and working in sustainability.

My handle's meaning in my opinion, 'hopeislife' generally means the hope that is required by an individual to stay strong and be sane during the 'waiting period or time' only after which an outcome or result of a life/death event can be known. I do advice to have hope and not high hopes, because if it does not happen then it will be painful, even if we act like not affected on the outside. Even i have faced 2 pr rejections few years before, so I know the pain.

To sum it all, i still wish you all the best and apply with what you have. Please dont think i have affected your hopes.

[deepthemd]

Hey, not at all. I was being candid when I said that I appreciate the extensive research to calibrate one's expectations for PR especially being an Indian. It is good to not have high hopes and not live in a delusional bubble that you deserve it because A,B,C reason.

I was one of them doe-eyed folks when I applied for PR the first time. I realize that one needs to look at their chances objectively.

This forum has been effective purely because people (especially regular contributors) have been contributing their insights using their personal time which could be easily spent elsewhere. So I appreciate your reply and thanks for taking the time !

[malcontent]

Always expect nothing; you’ll only have upside.

At the same time, always have a plan B… and maybe C & D too.