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CPF and US Tax Filing

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silverken
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CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by silverken » Tue, 21 Mar 2023 6:57 am

I am new to US Tax filing for CPF. I would like to seek advice for:
1. How to file US tax for the Medishield premium deducted from MA? As distribution?
2. How to file US tax for payment for DPS deducted from OA? As distribution?
3. How to file GST or other $$$ added by Singapore Gov to your OA or MA? As income, compensation,etc?
4. If you plan to leave Singapore and surrender your PR, how do you handle your CPF closure? Your CPF closure will happen a month after you renounce your PR. I think such big withdrawal from CPF is treated as taxable distribution.
5. Do you file form 3520 or just 8938 for interests, dividends, distribution, other income, contribution, etc. for CPF? How do you do it?
thanks
by malcontent » Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:28 pm
1. No, paying a Medishield premium out of CPF would be no different than paying a private insurance premium from your own bank account, there’s no tax impact whatsoever.
2. Same rule as #1 applies, neither are considered distributions in the US tax sense.
3. I am not 100% sure on GST rebates; it should be classified as a tax refund and tax refunds are not taxed (that is how US stimulus money went tax free, because it was deemed a tax refund). However, interest added to CPF by the government is interest income from a US tax perspective, and cannot be deferred - it has to be declared and taxed as paid each year.
4. No, it is NOT considered a distribution, it is no different than withdrawing money from a bank account. The reason is because the US does not allow deferral on the contributions in the same way that Singapore does, because CPF is not a qualified (tax advantaged) account from a US tax perspective. The only exception is CPF LIFE payments (there are special rules pertaining to annuities that were purchased with previously untaxed dollars).
5. CPF is except from 3520 because it is a foreign trust that is considered under 402(b), and technically, it is exempt from 8938 because it is a foreign government’s social security program (most advisors will “play safe” and tell you to report it anyway, just in case CPF might not fit perfectly as described, but I personally would not bother). I would, however, declare my CPF account on the FBAR.

In summary:

CPF after becoming a US person:

1. Tick the box on 1040 schedule B part III
2. Report it on FBAR
3. If you wish, report it on 8938
4. Include interest income earned each year

(in other words, it’s like any other foreign bank account)

If you withdraw it, everything was already taxable when contributed under 402(b) so there is no further taxation — again, it’s like any other foreign bank account, it comes out 100% tax free except for the interest earned each year.
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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by malcontent » Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:28 pm

1. No, paying a Medishield premium out of CPF would be no different than paying a private insurance premium from your own bank account, there’s no tax impact whatsoever.
2. Same rule as #1 applies, neither are considered distributions in the US tax sense.
3. I am not 100% sure on GST rebates; it should be classified as a tax refund and tax refunds are not taxed (that is how US stimulus money went tax free, because it was deemed a tax refund). However, interest added to CPF by the government is interest income from a US tax perspective, and cannot be deferred - it has to be declared and taxed as paid each year.
4. No, it is NOT considered a distribution, it is no different than withdrawing money from a bank account. The reason is because the US does not allow deferral on the contributions in the same way that Singapore does, because CPF is not a qualified (tax advantaged) account from a US tax perspective. The only exception is CPF LIFE payments (there are special rules pertaining to annuities that were purchased with previously untaxed dollars).
5. CPF is except from 3520 because it is a foreign trust that is considered under 402(b), and technically, it is exempt from 8938 because it is a foreign government’s social security program (most advisors will “play safe” and tell you to report it anyway, just in case CPF might not fit perfectly as described, but I personally would not bother). I would, however, declare my CPF account on the FBAR.

In summary:

CPF after becoming a US person:

1. Tick the box on 1040 schedule B part III
2. Report it on FBAR
3. If you wish, report it on 8938
4. Include interest income earned each year

(in other words, it’s like any other foreign bank account)

If you withdraw it, everything was already taxable when contributed under 402(b) so there is no further taxation — again, it’s like any other foreign bank account, it comes out 100% tax free except for the interest earned each year.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by silverken » Thu, 23 Mar 2023 4:21 am

malcontent wrote:
Wed, 22 Mar 2023 11:28 pm
1. No, paying a Medishield premium out of CPF would be no different than paying a private insurance premium from your own bank account, there’s no tax impact whatsoever.
2. Same rule as #1 applies, neither are considered distributions in the US tax sense.
3. I am not 100% sure on GST rebates; it should be classified as a tax refund and tax refunds are not taxed (that is how US stimulus money went tax free, because it was deemed a tax refund). However, interest added to CPF by the government is interest income from a US tax perspective, and cannot be deferred - it has to be declared and taxed as paid each year.
4. No, it is NOT considered a distribution, it is no different than withdrawing money from a bank account. The reason is because the US does not allow deferral on the contributions in the same way that Singapore does, because CPF is not a qualified (tax advantaged) account from a US tax perspective. The only exception is CPF LIFE payments (there are special rules pertaining to annuities that were purchased with previously untaxed dollars).
5. CPF is except from 3520 because it is a foreign trust that is considered under 402(b), and technically, it is exempt from 8938 because it is a foreign government’s social security program (most advisors will “play safe” and tell you to report it anyway, just in case CPF might not fit perfectly as described, but I personally would not bother). I would, however, declare my CPF account on the FBAR.

In summary:

CPF after becoming a US person:

1. Tick the box on 1040 schedule B part III
2. Report it on FBAR
3. If you wish, report it on 8938
4. Include interest income earned each year

(in other words, it’s like any other foreign bank account)

If you withdraw it, everything was already taxable when contributed under 402(b) so there is no further taxation — again, it’s like any other foreign bank account, it comes out 100% tax free except for the interest earned each year.
Thank you malcontent. You are very knowledgeable, I would like to get more inputs and advice from you. More questions.
1. GST Voucher top up - If it is considered as tax rebate, then it might be taxable if you have claimed foreign tax credit. I thought in US, state tax rebate could be taxable at Federal level.
2. Gov other contributions - Besides, gov top up for GST Voucher, I have also received from Singapore gov medisave top-up, care and support payment, SG Bonus, etc. Are they considered gift? Are they taxable? If yes, how should I report them?
3. Dividends - How should I handle dividends from Singtel shares given by Singapore gov?
4. Capital gain/loss - If Singtel shares were sold with capital gain/loss, should gain/loss be reported? What is the cost basis of Singtel shares given by Singapore gov? How to report?
5. Interests - according to IRS memo (https://www.irs.gov/pub/lanoa/pmta00173_6973.pdf), interest from employee's portion is only taxable when the amount is distributed. (How about employer's portion?). However, it also concluded that all employee's contribution portions are considered employer's contribution as employee contribution is non-elective. There is no mention about interest from employer's portion. It further stated highly compensated employee must declare and pay earning each year. So, it appears to imply that one must pay interest yearly only if the person is highly compensated employee? I am confused.
6. FBAR - I thought IRS states that "But, you don’t need to report foreign financial accounts that are Held in a retirement plan of which you’re a participant or beneficiary" (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-bu ... ounts-fbar) ?
7. 8938 - According to IRS (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/corporat ... -form-8938), CPF is not reportable if the person earns the right of social security payment from CPF. If CPF is considered a pension plan, it is reportable. I think we do not really earn the right to social security payment as we could close and withdraw CPF balance. Even in US, one must work enoughh years to earn the right. CPF is not like US social security system. I am confused.
8. PFIC - 8621 - CPF money contributed is used to buy Singapore gov bond (https://www.mof.gov.sg/news-publication ... -CPF-Funds), so that will classify CPF as PFIC and make 8621 report necessary every year regardless if there is any withdrawal or distribution. Do we need to file complicated 8621?
9. 3520 - I think 402(b) only exempts contribution reporting. There is no exemption for distribution reporting. However, IRS revenue procedure Rev. Proc. 2020-17 appears to exempt CPF from reporting as CPF is kind of tax-favored foreign retirement trust. Is this revenue procedure clearly applicable? Do we still need to file 3520?
10. You are correct if everything was taxed, then there is no taxable distribution but there is still distribution. I think regardless the distribution is taxable (full, partial or none), one must still report. We might have components in our withdrawal which were not taxed before (e.g. GST from Singapore gov, contribution as nonresident, Singtel shares, gov contributions, etc.). If taxable distribution is due. Any components which were not taxed before cannot be the cost basis and some contributions are not allowed to be cost basis based on IRS tax code. For this case, withdrawal will have taxable distribution, Upon withdrawal, IRS could only know distribution is taxable from our filing in one of the forms. In another word, even distribution is not taxable, one must still file the form. What form should be used for reporting? Is tax due for withdrawal ?

malcontent, hope you can share your view.

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by malcontent » Thu, 23 Mar 2023 9:45 am

1. TBH, this is beyond my breadth of knowledge, hence why I mentioned I’m not 100% sure. If you want to be safe, just declare it as income. On one of the 1040 schedules you’ll see they have a place for things like bonuses/royalties/etc. I once got a $50 referral bonus from a US payer that was reported on a 1099, and that is where it went.
2. Same advice as #1 - but note that this only applies in the year it was credited to your CPF. If you really want a definitive answer, suggest contacted an actual tax advisor (I am not, I just advise myself - and I’m not always right!)
3. Dividends from a foreign corporation would be ordinary dividends, reported on 1040.
4. Like dividends, any capital gains & losses realized in the tax year are taxable (only exception is if they are in a qualified/tax advantaged account like an IRA/401(k)) it doesn’t matter where they come or who paid them. If they are bonus shares that you paid nothing for, then your cost basis is zero.
5. Welcome to the club… I’m confused too! You need a tax pro if you really want to attempt compliance with 100% perfection - something that is nearly impossible to attain, even for the best of the pros!
6. Agree — there is a lot of confusion & contention about what needs or does not need to be reported - e.g. does a foreign retirement account meet the IRS’s definition of a retirement account? Since reporting costs nothing, you’ll see most all advisors err on the side of just reporting it.
7. Therein lies the question - is CPF really a social security plan as defined by the IRS? Some say no. You are looking for clear cut answers, but even the IRS has issued multiple memorandums on the topic and changed their mind about what piece of the code things fall under at different times. It’s a hot mess!
8. That is quite a leap. I can’t imagine CPF itself could be considered a PFIC, but TBH, it would not make much difference - because the PFIC method just marks things to market each year for capital gains purposes… so in reality the taxability shouldn’t change, regardless.
9. I don’t believe so, but you could enlist the services of a tax pro to try and find out - they may not even be able to give you an air tight answer. Maybe try the taxpayer advocate service? I wouldn’t, but I’m not that worried about it - I know I can’t be 100% on this, and can only show I’ve done my due diligence to the best of my ability, then throw myself on their mercy (if that ever happened… however unlikely).
10. The Singapore government is unlikely to report this stuff to the IRS, so it’s not like any red flags are going to be raised. It’s only if you are unlucky enough to face an audit, and even then, you’d probably have to do something blatant - some clear evidence of tax evasion; to piss them off - then they will try all means to screw you in return.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by silverken » Thu, 23 Mar 2023 10:53 am

Thank you malcontent for your view and perspective. They are very helpful.
I use CPA and also consult tax attorney. Their answers are inconsistent due to different interpretation. They said I could take one of the many positions. How would I know which is acceptable to IRS?
FYI - The tax attorney just told me
1. GST, $$$ added by gov be treated as other taxable income.
2. CPF is not PFIC so long there is no investment in mutual fund, etc.
3. FBAR and 8938 must be filed.
4. Premium paid for Medishield, etc are not distribution
5. Growth in CPF balance is taxable every year (my CPA think you could opt to defer using different tax code to handle it)
I did not manage to ask other questions.

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 23 Mar 2023 6:27 pm

I've been filing from Singapore for the last 40 years (mine went into the mail to the NC P.O. Address this afternoon along with a physical cheque for the amount due - got hit rather hard (for me anyway) due to the proceeds from a 10 yr endowment ins policy which when thrown on top of my 85% taxable SS caused a bit of damage. As I am now retired, I no longer have the 2555 to stave off the wolves. Having said that, regarding CPF. I, like Mal, treat my CPF like another bank deposit account. I do file the 8938 every year and also include it on FINcen every year and I list it as a deposit account. I report the full interest earned annually AND from the time I started contributing to CPF in 1995 when I got PR I have always included both my full salary AND the employers contributions as salary. Therefore with the exception of the topups (and we don't get all of the ones the government gives) and medishield ins payments, all the income in my CPF account has been taxed previously. So far no issues in this regard over the last 25 years. I think consistency is the key. Bad decision in the beginning just festers and grows if you try to swap horses in the middle of the stream. Once commitment is made I think it will hold you in good stead. On, and like Mal, I do not use any tax preparation company for any assistance. If fact Mal, MD, GSM8 & myself have discussed this at length several times over the years.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by malcontent » Fri, 24 Mar 2023 2:32 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Thu, 23 Mar 2023 6:27 pm
I've been filing from Singapore for the last 40 years (mine went into the mail to the NC P.O. Address this afternoon along with a physical cheque for the amount due - got hit rather hard (for me anyway) due to the proceeds from a 10 yr endowment ins policy which when thrown on top of my 85% taxable SS caused a bit of damage. As I am now retired, I no longer have the 2555 to stave off the wolves. Having said that, regarding CPF. I, like Mal, treat my CPF like another bank deposit account. I do file the 8938 every year and also include it on FINcen every year and I list it as a deposit account. I report the full interest earned annually AND from the time I started contributing to CPF in 1995 when I got PR I have always included both my full salary AND the employers contributions as salary. Therefore with the exception of the topups (and we don't get all of the ones the government gives) and medishield ins payments, all the income in my CPF account has been taxed previously. So far no issues in this regard over the last 25 years. I think consistency is the key. Bad decision in the beginning just festers and grows if you try to swap horses in the middle of the stream. Once commitment is made I think it will hold you in good stead. On, and like Mal, I do not use any tax preparation company for any assistance. If fact Mal, MD, GSM8 & myself have discussed this at length several times over the years.
Very good point about being consistent. If you do a google search on something called “quiet disclosure” - - you might have gotten away with in the past — i.e. suddenly starting to report after not reporting before… but nowadays they are wise to it. Better safe than sorry.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by zhangqian0324 » Tue, 28 Nov 2023 1:34 am

Hi. I would like to follow up on this thread and ask a few questions specific to my own situation:

1. My wife and I were previously Singapore permanent residents (PRs). We had jobs and incomes, and therefore CPF accounts.
2. However, we lost our Singapore PR status after staying for several years in the US for graduate schools. Our CPF accounts remained open, but no new salaries/contributions were added.
3. Several years later, we obtained USA PR status in 2021.
4. We did not do anything with our Singapore CPF when we file our US taxes in 2022 and 2023, because we were not aware of that we need to report our foreign accounts.
5. This year (2023), we completely closed our Singapore CPF accounts and transferred the balances to our Singapore local bank accounts.

To get ready for filling taxes when we enter 2024, I would like to get feedback on:
(1) Is the transfer from our closed CPF accounts to Singapore local bank accounts considered "income"? As you could expect, that would significantly increase our taxable income and hence our taxes.
(2) Do we need to pay for taxes for the entire CPF balance or just the portion we earned (interests actually) after we became USA PR in 2021?
(3) Do we need to take further actions (and what actions) to avoid any potential penalties for not reporting our Singapore CPF information when we file our taxes in 2022 and 2023? We were not aware of that as USA PRs we need to report our foreign accounts.

Thank you all for your help!

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by malcontent » Wed, 29 Nov 2023 3:56 am

zhangqian0324 wrote:
Tue, 28 Nov 2023 1:34 am
Hi. I would like to follow up on this thread and ask a few questions specific to my own situation:

1. My wife and I were previously Singapore permanent residents (PRs). We had jobs and incomes, and therefore CPF accounts.
2. However, we lost our Singapore PR status after staying for several years in the US for graduate schools. Our CPF accounts remained open, but no new salaries/contributions were added.
3. Several years later, we obtained USA PR status in 2021.
4. We did not do anything with our Singapore CPF when we file our US taxes in 2022 and 2023, because we were not aware of that we need to report our foreign accounts.
5. This year (2023), we completely closed our Singapore CPF accounts and transferred the balances to our Singapore local bank accounts.

To get ready for filling taxes when we enter 2024, I would like to get feedback on:
(1) Is the transfer from our closed CPF accounts to Singapore local bank accounts considered "income"? As you could expect, that would significantly increase our taxable income and hence our taxes.
(2) Do we need to pay for taxes for the entire CPF balance or just the portion we earned (interests actually) after we became USA PR in 2021?
(3) Do we need to take further actions (and what actions) to avoid any potential penalties for not reporting our Singapore CPF information when we file our taxes in 2022 and 2023? We were not aware of that as USA PRs we need to report our foreign accounts.

Thank you all for your help!
(1) - no, it’s not income.
(2) - any interest earned in a tax year is taxable in that tax year (CPF is not a qualified account per IRS rules, so you can’t defer the income).
(3) - it’s not US LPR that triggers tax/reporting obligations on your worldwide income/assets, it’s US personhood, which typically happens once you reach the US physical presence limit… unless you had a visa that explicitly exempted you. So you may have been liable for longer than you think.

Claiming ignorance or not being aware of your US reporting obligations — that is not going to help you avoid penalties if you are caught. And, your US LPR could even be at risk.

You now need to decide whether to do an expensive “voluntary disclosure” or a “quiet disclosure” and take your chances (keeping your fingers crossed until the statute of limitations passes). The fact that you have filed your taxes in the US means the clock on the statute of limitations is already ticking. If no financial institution in SG had your SSN, it’s not likely being reported to the US under the Singapore FATCA IGA. However, any amount over $10k that gets wired to a US account would often get reported to FINcen, and that is how many get caught.

If you seek advice from legitimate experts or professionals, they will all advise you to enter the voluntary disclosure program - considering the risks to you, and the profit for them in helping you do this. But that is the only way to be sure you won’t face severe penalties or worse.

It’s a tough decision that carries great risk, but only you can make that decision after researching it for yourself. No matter what you decide, you’ll want to “clean house” and “be smart” starting from now, that is for sure!
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by BuldiWoon » Mon, 04 Dec 2023 6:56 am

Hi all,
I found this thread is very helpful, thank you for sharing useful information so far.
I have some questions that I want to ask your input. I have similar situation as zhangqian0324
I moved to US from SG in 2022. I reported my CPF account in both form 8938 and FBAR. But my tax accountant mentioned that it is not taxable until withdrawal. However, after reading this thread I think it make sense to pay tax on interest every year and I plan to do so for 2023 onward.

My questions are:
1. When I withdraw my CPF because I lose my PR in the future, is my understanding correct that the CPF amount in 2022 is not subject to US tax because that amount is the contribution and interest made prior becoming US person? What is subject to US tax is the interest that I earn after I become a US person?
2. Do you have any idea how should I pay the tax on the interest from last year?

Thank you! I am a noob in US tax and last year my tax was handled my a tax accountant which is part of my relocation, but this year onward I will be on my own.

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Re: CPF and US Tax Filing

Post by zhangqian0324 » Tue, 05 Dec 2023 9:22 am

Thank you very much for answering my questions and for your suggestions.

I am pretty sure that I do not need to report anything related to the CPF in my first six years in the US, since I was a student and there was a tax retreat.

It seems that I need to report my CPF interests for each year since I am no longer exempted. One challenge is that I did not track my CPF, and I don’t know how much interest was earned each year. I will try to contact CPF to see whether I may be able to get statements from past years.

Also, I have a few friends who were from Singapore and are now live in the US. I will bring this into their attention and hopefully they are aware of it and have dealt with their CPF interests correctly with regard to their own tax returns.

Again, thank you very much for your help!

malcontent wrote:
Wed, 29 Nov 2023 3:56 am
zhangqian0324 wrote:
Tue, 28 Nov 2023 1:34 am
Hi. I would like to follow up on this thread and ask a few questions specific to my own situation:

1. My wife and I were previously Singapore permanent residents (PRs). We had jobs and incomes, and therefore CPF accounts.
2. However, we lost our Singapore PR status after staying for several years in the US for graduate schools. Our CPF accounts remained open, but no new salaries/contributions were added.
3. Several years later, we obtained USA PR status in 2021.
4. We did not do anything with our Singapore CPF when we file our US taxes in 2022 and 2023, because we were not aware of that we need to report our foreign accounts.
5. This year (2023), we completely closed our Singapore CPF accounts and transferred the balances to our Singapore local bank accounts.

To get ready for filling taxes when we enter 2024, I would like to get feedback on:
(1) Is the transfer from our closed CPF accounts to Singapore local bank accounts considered "income"? As you could expect, that would significantly increase our taxable income and hence our taxes.
(2) Do we need to pay for taxes for the entire CPF balance or just the portion we earned (interests actually) after we became USA PR in 2021?
(3) Do we need to take further actions (and what actions) to avoid any potential penalties for not reporting our Singapore CPF information when we file our taxes in 2022 and 2023? We were not aware of that as USA PRs we need to report our foreign accounts.

Thank you all for your help!
(1) - no, it’s not income.
(2) - any interest earned in a tax year is taxable in that tax year (CPF is not a qualified account per IRS rules, so you can’t defer the income).
(3) - it’s not US LPR that triggers tax/reporting obligations on your worldwide income/assets, it’s US personhood, which typically happens once you reach the US physical presence limit… unless you had a visa that explicitly exempted you. So you may have been liable for longer than you think.

Claiming ignorance or not being aware of your US reporting obligations — that is not going to help you avoid penalties if you are caught. And, your US LPR could even be at risk.

You now need to decide whether to do an expensive “voluntary disclosure” or a “quiet disclosure” and take your chances (keeping your fingers crossed until the statute of limitations passes). The fact that you have filed your taxes in the US means the clock on the statute of limitations is already ticking. If no financial institution in SG had your SSN, it’s not likely being reported to the US under the Singapore FATCA IGA. However, any amount over $10k that gets wired to a US account would often get reported to FINcen, and that is how many get caught.

If you seek advice from legitimate experts or professionals, they will all advise you to enter the voluntary disclosure program - considering the risks to you, and the profit for them in helping you do this. But that is the only way to be sure you won’t face severe penalties or worse.

It’s a tough decision that carries great risk, but only you can make that decision after researching it for yourself. No matter what you decide, you’ll want to “clean house” and “be smart” starting from now, that is for sure!

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