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CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by NYY1 » Sun, 12 Mar 2023 7:27 am

beppi wrote:
Sun, 12 Mar 2023 2:54 am
For clarification: I am no longer PR since my last REP expied while living abroad. I was even informed about it (by mail to my Singapore address, which is my in-laws).
My question was thus, whether non-renounced but expired PRs are treated any different (because the CPF webpage only refers to "renounced"). I see that the consensus here seems to be No.
And then there is still the question of what will happen if we move to Singapore again (which is not unlikely for a majority Singaporean family). Do I have to pay back all CPF money, possibly with interest (as is currently the case if CPF was withdrawn voluntarily), although I didn't even want to take out in the first place?
If no-one has informaion here, I will try to ask CPF directly and report back what they reply.
I am not sure what you mean by "we move to Singapore again." My understanding is that repaying CPF is a condition for second time PRs (i.e. one was a PR, renounced/lost status, withdrew CPF balance, and subsequently became a PR again), not for those who return on EP or LTVP (as far as I am aware. Someone feel free to correct if this is wrong).

FWIW, I don't think you need to worry about the former situation, so once you get the money feel free to invest it however you think is best. I also don't think maintaining or closing the CPF account (previously on a voluntary basis, now on a compulsory basis) is going to have any impact on whether you can obtain other passes. That will depend on a number of other factors.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by smoulder » Sun, 12 Mar 2023 10:04 am

beppi wrote:
Sun, 12 Mar 2023 2:54 am
For clarification: I am no longer PR since my last REP expied while living abroad. I was even informed about it (by mail to my Singapore address, which is my in-laws).
My question was thus, whether non-renounced but expired PRs are treated any different (because the CPF webpage only refers to "renounced"). I see that the consensus here seems to be No.
And then there is still the question of what will happen if we move to Singapore again (which is not unlikely for a majority Singaporean family). Do I have to pay back all CPF money, possibly with interest (as is currently the case if CPF was withdrawn voluntarily), although I didn't even want to take out in the first place?
If no-one has informaion here, I will try to ask CPF directly and report back what they reply.
Rather than speculate on your status (because that seems to be a bit of a grey area), maybe you could try logging in to My ICA. You should be able to see your residential status.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by beppi » Sun, 12 Mar 2023 4:22 pm

There is no speculation: I am no longer PR!
(I have no idea why some people here doubt that.)
But it is of course uncertain under what circumstances and with what kind of pass I might come back. I want to keep all options open.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by NYY1 » Sun, 12 Mar 2023 8:23 pm

This FAQ seems to shed more light on renunciation. Seems to be there are no "unrenounced" PRs; when you are no longer a PR (i.e. outside of Singapore without a valid REP) then you have renounced (whether voluntary or not).

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/faq/accou ... ingapore-c

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 12 Mar 2023 10:25 pm

Hey beppi! Been a long time. Hope all is well.

You have posed a good question I'd not thought of as the old conundrum was as you mentioned. I'm thinking it going to be the same (if you were to try to regain your PR). I don't see any difference between voluntarily giving up PR and withdrawing or them stopping payment of interest on balances left intact here as a safe deposit box of cash (money in safe deposit boxes don't draw interest either). So I would think that the payback of the interest "that would have accrued" would still have to be paid on the balance left here for "safekeeping". Its would actually just be to the date you regained PR and accrued & deposited into your CPF account up to the time of reinstatement of PR.

I would appreciate your getting back to us with the answer you get from the CPF as it is really pertinent here.

Good to hear from you again.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by malcontent » Mon, 13 Mar 2023 9:52 pm

I would expect them to apply the rules (reinstated PR requires restoring all CPF balances plus interest), even though it now appears less than totally fair given this new policy. The shortfall in interest will now be no fault of the CPF member if they never withdrew it. They may not have even considered that scenario when they crafted this new policy.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by silverken » Tue, 21 Mar 2023 8:01 am

My understanding is that ICA will "renounce" for you if you do not act. Once you are no longer a PR, your CPF account will be closed soon depending on when ICA or when you act. I think your withdrawal from CPF will trigger distribution event. If you are a US person, depending on how much is taxable for your distribution, you might need to time it so that you do not end up in higher tax bracket. Claiming cost basis for your distribution could be a challenge as you need to prove it.
If you plan to return to Singapore as PR again, you need to return everything you withdraw + interest (not sure that is based on interest of just OA, or interests applicable for OA, MA, SA and RA). I think it might be difficult to regain PR.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by beppi » Sat, 01 Apr 2023 3:22 am

I finally got a reply from the CPF board, which clarifies everything (but unfortunately not in the way I wanted to hear):
- The announcement only speaks of renounced PR. I did not renounce - and would have preferred to keep my PR if circumstances permitted (which was unfortunately not the case). Am I also affected by the account closure?
As long as you are no longer a Singapore Citizen (SC) or Permanent Resident (PR), and not holding onto a pass or permit that enables employment or long term stay in Singapore, your CPF account will be closed and your CPF savings will be transferred to your bank account. In general, the CPF system is intended to help SCs and PRs retire with peace of mind in Singapore.

Please check with Immigration & Checkpoints Authority (ICA) directly to enquire on your PR validity, either by calling (65) 6391 6100 or email them.

- Is there any possibility to be exempted from the account closure, e.g. due to my long time living in and close connections to Singapore, being married to a Singaporean and having a Singaporean daughter and planning to move there again in the long run?
For more information, please call us at +65 6776 6776.

- If my account were closed, how would this affect my return to Singapore in future? E.g. would I still have to return the amount (plus potential interest) when I return, as is the current practice for people who voluntarily close their CPF account?
You will need to refund the amount transferred, including the interest you would have earned, if you are an ex-SC or PR returning to obtain SC or PR.
To me, this means: "We will close your account, no matter what. And if you ever come back, you have to return everything to us, plus the interest we would have paid you if we hadn't."
Or in other words: "Please don't ever come back!"

This is hard, from a place I called home for 20 years. But without becoming citizen (which I didn't want to), there's nothing I can do.
Since this also dashes my wife's hopes to return (e.g. to take care of her elderly parents), she now has to get used to the idea of a long-term future in my country - and might now decide to take on my citizenship instead.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by malcontent » Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:06 am

Even Singapore citizens who stay outside Singapore too long can have their citizenship revoked.

I’ve said it before, it often reminds me of that Janet Jackson song… “what have you done for me lately”

Others have described her as a bitter ex… I wouldn’t argue against that. You need to know what you are dealing with… and manage your affairs accordingly.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:17 am

beppi wrote:
Sat, 01 Apr 2023 3:22 am
I finally got a reply from the CPF board, which clarifies everything (but unfortunately not in the way I wanted to hear):
...
To me, this means: "We will close your account, no matter what. And if you ever come back, you have to return everything to us, plus the interest we would have paid you if we hadn't."
Or in other words: "Please don't ever come back!"

This is hard, from a place I called home for 20 years. But without becoming citizen (which I didn't want to), there's nothing I can do.
Since this also dashes my wife's hopes to return (e.g. to take care of her elderly parents), she now has to get used to the idea of a long-term future in my country - and might now decide to take on my citizenship instead.
Thanks for the reply and sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear (although I think most would have guessed what answer was coming). Nevertheless, why can't you and your wife return with you on LTVP? Personally, whether the CPF funds remained in place or you can refund the balance + interest without any issues (i.e. not a constraint financially), I think it is unlikely you will be able to regain PR here. I.e. the question on whether you can return with your wife is dependent on you getting an LTVP (or EP if still working but I assume at some point you'll need something else). If so, there's nothing to refund if you come back.

Second, everyone has choices in life and sometimes these involve hard decision. No one can decide what is the right decision or is it "worth it" for any other family/child/etc. At the same time, there is no need to play the victim card. You had a choice and told Singapore you don't need them. Fair enough. So what's the big deal when they say "we don't need you?" 20 years is irrelevant.

In the end, you may be fine with it; i.e. always knew it was a possibility and wouldn't do anything different but just wish it was another way. If so, hope you can sort out the above or be happy with whatever other direction life takes you guys.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by jalanjalan » Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:32 am

beppi wrote:
Sat, 01 Apr 2023 3:22 am
To me, this means: "We will close your account, no matter what. And if you ever come back, you have to return everything to us, plus the interest we would have paid you if we hadn't."
Or in other words: "Please don't ever come back!"

This is hard, from a place I called home for 20 years. But without becoming citizen (which I didn't want to), there's nothing I can do.
Since this also dashes my wife's hopes to return (e.g. to take care of her elderly parents), she now has to get used to the idea of a long-term future in my country - and might now decide to take on my citizenship instead.
They're not saying don't ever come back, else they wouldn't have a process for doing so, difficult though it may prove.
This is the risk we take when we uproot, especially if we have families in 2 countries. I have to look after my elderly relatives remotely, as best I can, as I can't fly across the world at a moment's notice. At least now we have the tech to keep in touch pretty much constantly. It's a hard thing, but we make our choices and must make the best of it.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by silverken » Mon, 03 Apr 2023 7:47 am

silverken wrote:
Tue, 21 Mar 2023 8:01 am
...
I think your withdrawal from CPF will trigger distribution event. If you are a US person, depending on how much is taxable for your distribution, you might need to time it so that you do not end up in higher tax bracket. Claiming cost basis for your distribution could be a challenge as you need to prove it.
...
Be careful as you might have a potential tax issue to deal with.

CPF closure is a big tax event for for US person, UK person and potentially citizens/residents of many other countries.
For UK person, for example, refer to
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tax-trea ... tered-mcsi
For the worst case, your lump sum withdrawal, waived loans, etc. are fully taxable if you do not have any record to claim any cost basis.

Upon closure, the CPF board will end all schemes you participated and liquidate everything for you. The CPF board told me that members will not receive "last statement" with the breakdown.
Getting any statement from the CPF board is extremely difficult after you lose your PR.
How could one file tax without information?

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by therat » Mon, 03 Apr 2023 9:38 am

malcontent wrote:
Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:06 am
Even Singapore citizens who stay outside Singapore too long can have their citizenship revoked.

I’ve said it before, it often reminds me of that Janet Jackson song… “what have you done for me lately”

Others have described her as a bitter ex… I wouldn’t argue against that. You need to know what you are dealing with… and manage your affairs accordingly.
where you get that information that Singaporean will get their citizenship revoked if stay outside SIngapore too long?

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by smoulder » Mon, 03 Apr 2023 10:43 am

therat wrote:
Mon, 03 Apr 2023 9:38 am
malcontent wrote:
Sat, 01 Apr 2023 11:06 am
Even Singapore citizens who stay outside Singapore too long can have their citizenship revoked.

I’ve said it before, it often reminds me of that Janet Jackson song… “what have you done for me lately”

Others have described her as a bitter ex… I wouldn’t argue against that. You need to know what you are dealing with… and manage your affairs accordingly.
where you get that information that Singaporean will get their citizenship revoked if stay outside SIngapore too long?
Yea I'm curious too.

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Re: CPF accounts of 300,000 foreigners will automatically close from April 2024

Post by silverken » Mon, 03 Apr 2023 11:51 am

ICA acts according to Singapore laws for SC. Refer to relevant sections in "Part 10 Citizenship"
https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/CONS1963#P110-

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