Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?

[Wd40]

If I am not wrong, way before I came to SG(2009), HDB was not allowed to be rented to foreigners. Foreigners could only rent condos. It is the property market crash after the AFC, which made them open up HDB rental for foreigners.

So HDBs were never meant to be rented to foreigners. I suspect they could reinstate this rule anytime if there is a severe rental crunch impacting locals, which I already see happening. 100% rent increase is no joke if you are a local and if more and more locals have to turn to renting.

So basically there is no policy for housing foreigners in Singapore at all, other than the expensive condominiums or dormitories for the construction workers.

Maybe sometime in future only high end expats will come to Singapore like above 15k minimum salary.

[bro75]

When I arrived in Singapore in 2000, foreigners were already able to rent hdbs, either whole units or just rooms. Maybe what you are referring to was the rule before 2000.

[PNGMK]

If I am not wrong, way before I came to SG(2009), HDB was not allowed to be rented to foreigners. Foreigners could only rent condos. It is the property market crash after the AFC, which made them open up HDB rental for foreigners.

So HDBs were never meant to be rented to foreigners. I suspect they could reinstate this rule anytime if there is a severe rental crunch impacting locals, which I already see happening. 100% rent increase is no joke if you are a local and if more and more locals have to turn to renting.

So basically there is no policy for housing foreigners in Singapore at all, other than the expensive condominiums or dormitories for the construction workers.

Maybe sometime in future only high end expats will come to Singapore like above 15k minimum salary.

When I first came here only locals were allowed to buy condos which were less than 6 stories. There have been a LOT of changes to the detriment of the locals (I would argue ABSD is stopping them from building property portfolios as well as expats for example).

[PNGMK]

I'm currently only paying 1850 for a one bedroom apartment around Beauty World. I see similar apartments going for 3400 now. It is safe to say that the renewal in June will be hard to swallow. It will probably be double!


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I rented a 2 bed in Beauty World Centre (the shorter building - a bit run down) for $1300 a month in 1992. It was probably around 900fts but quite comfortable.

[sundaymorningstaple]

I'm the one who made a killing in the rental market. I rented a 2 story Black & White in Seletar Camp in 1983 for $400/month (bare unit). Lived there for 13 years before UDMC gave up management of the Reverted Properties and Mgmt was taken over by Pidemco (Premas) at the start of 1997. They went up on rental 3x during the 1997 Asian Financial Meltdown and in Dec 98 notified me my rent was going up to 1200/mo. I said screw you. In January 99 when the property Market bottomed out I booked the purchase of a resale 5 RM flat (4 BR). Still there, paid it of with a 14 years HDB Mortgage. Been laughing ever since.

[NYY1]

My wife and I are PR for more than 8 years but we did not buy a house yet. Mostly out of choice cuz I think investing is financially more savvy.

We had a good run renting too since 2012. We just renewed for 2 years in June and got out 2 room condo renewed for 2900. Not bad given the situation. I have to say, that after a fair share of so-so landlords, our current one is really nice. I was expecting 3300-3500 so was surprised at 2900. Not bad.

Hi. A couple of other thoughts here. Just bear in mind that the story would probably look a lot different if the base period was 2000 to 2011. I think over 100 years, your strategy pays off (Real Estate is a low yielding asset). However, there can easily be 5-10 year periods were these two assets have greatly different performance. One advantage of owning your home is that your cost is fixed and theoretically if you remain employed and avoid lifestyle inflation the "housing cost" becomes a lower percentage of your income each year. Further, while watching a portfolio go up probably feels good, having to downsize your housing or move to a less desirable location probably feels twice as bad. I.e. owning a home is also a direct hedge to one of your biggest expenses (consumption of real estate). Given all these factors, it's probably a reason some people will take a "low return" on housing.

So, I am probably not an expat giver PR but I rent despite having PR for a decade. Just feel it offers flexibility, freedom. I also rent away from MRT so prices r ok cuz I prefer driving.

Despite what I said above, I don't think renting is that bad either. Owning real estate here involves significant transaction costs. I also think people underestimate how quick their needs or preferences change. The area that kids are going to school can change every 4-6 years so there is an advantage in being able to move around (make their commute shorter). People may also want different things once their kids are gone or just get bored with any particular area. Flexibility as you say.

I also believe all property here is a depreciating asset. Maybe not in nominal terms, but in real terms I would say it is. For example, even freehold condos won't keep you on parity with the psf of a new or 5 year old resale freehold condo. Some of this is the development costs/premium but some of it is that (most) old condos just become less attractive over time. You can reno the inside of your unit but the grounds and surroundings are what they are (some areas maintain themselves better than others). I guess a lot of this is whether one likes new stuff or just likes their home.

The other challenge is that as you get older the ability to borrow money starts to decline every year. Even if you get en-bloc, you will likely be out of pocket to buy a new(er) replacement unless you downsize or change location. Of course, in later stages of life I think people are more likely to be content with a specific location (less of a need to change unless you are forced to do so). But it takes some thought as to where you want to be before the constraint above kicks in.

[midlet2013]

My wife and I are PR for more than 8 years but we did not buy a house yet. Mostly out of choice cuz I think investing is financially more savvy.

We had a good run renting too since 2012. We just renewed for 2 years in June and got out 2 room condo renewed for 2900. Not bad given the situation. I have to say, that after a fair share of so-so landlords, our current one is really nice. I was expecting 3300-3500 so was surprised at 2900. Not bad.

Hi. A couple of other thoughts here. Just bear in mind that the story would probably look a lot different if the base period was 2000 to 2011. I think over 100 years, your strategy pays off (Real Estate is a low yielding asset). However, there can easily be 5-10 year periods were these two assets have greatly different performance. One advantage of owning your home is that your cost is fixed and theoretically if you remain employed and avoid lifestyle inflation the "housing cost" becomes a lower percentage of your income each year. Further, while watching a portfolio go up probably feels good, having to downsize your housing or move to a less desirable location probably feels twice as bad. I.e. owning a home is also a direct hedge to one of your biggest expenses (consumption of real estate). Given all these factors, it's probably a reason some people will take a "low return" on housing.

So, I am probably not an expat giver PR but I rent despite having PR for a decade. Just feel it offers flexibility, freedom. I also rent away from MRT so prices r ok cuz I prefer driving.

Despite what I said above, I don't think renting is that bad either. Owning real estate here involves significant transaction costs. I also think people underestimate how quick their needs or preferences change. The area that kids are going to school can change every 4-6 years so there is an advantage in being able to move around (make their commute shorter). People may also want different things once their kids are gone or just get bored with any particular area. Flexibility as you say.

I also believe all property here is a depreciating asset. Maybe not in nominal terms, but in real terms I would say it is. For example, even freehold condos won't keep you on parity with the psf of a new or 5 year old resale freehold condo. Some of this is the development costs/premium but some of it is that (most) old condos just become less attractive over time. You can reno the inside of your unit but the grounds and surroundings are what they are (some areas maintain themselves better than others). I guess a lot of this is whether one likes new stuff or just likes their home.

The other challenge is that as you get older the ability to borrow money starts to decline every year. Even if you get en-bloc, you will likely be out of pocket to buy a new(er) replacement unless you downsize or change location. Of course, in later stages of life I think people are more likely to be content with a specific location (less of a need to change unless you are forced to do so). But it takes some thought as to where you want to be before the constraint above kicks in.

I agree with u on most points. Our window was from 2012-2022 which set us up with a good platform. This year was bad, but if I look at 10 yrs , it was still good. Not buying a house n putting money in invested worked for us very well. At the same time, rents were very reasonable in the past 10 years and always got covered by passive income. So I really don't feel that rental money was lost.

There are 2 other benefits of investing over buying house in my view:
1. First is that u strive to learn about investing which itself is something most don't. Investing is not just having extra money. Its an attitude. We became comfy with downturns etc over the past 10 years. Its more exciting this way to learn, read, etc.

2. Second is that if I had a 1 million loan, the first thing I would do it cut luxuries. We rent but drive a car. Its so much more fun to live nicely n yet be ready for future. I don't want to wait until 50s or 60s to live. So less loan and high passive income allows us to experience things which we mite have cut down if we had huge liabilities.

But I do see ur points. Very valid. We did get lucky from 2012-2022, particularly between 2017 to 2022.

[NYY1]

I agree with u on most points. Our window was from 2012-2022 which set us up with a good platform. This year was bad, but if I look at 10 yrs , it was still good. Not buying a house n putting money in invested worked for us very well. At the same time, rents were very reasonable in the past 10 years and always got covered by passive income. So I really don't feel that rental money was lost.

There are 2 other benefits of investing over buying house in my view:
1. First is that u strive to learn about investing which itself is something most don't. Investing is not just having extra money. Its an attitude. We became comfy with downturns etc over the past 10 years. Its more exciting this way to learn, read, etc.

2. Second is that if I had a 1 million loan, the first thing I would do it cut luxuries. We rent but drive a car. Its so much more fun to live nicely n yet be ready for future. I don't want to wait until 50s or 60s to live. So less loan and high passive income allows us to experience things which we mite have cut down if we had huge liabilities.

But I do see ur points. Very valid. We did get lucky from 2012-2022, particularly between 2017 to 2022.

Understand, valid points as well.

If one has saved up some money, the options are a) invest it and rent or b) use it as a downpayment to buy a place. In a) rent is completely gone and you are subject to price volatility but you have flexibility. In b) mortgage interest, maintenance fees, and taxes are completely gone but you have more stability. In a), you get the investment returns on the money and in b) you get the return on the equity in the property. Over the long-run, the two are probably similar (considering the property is leveraged). However, there's never really an "equal" starting point for both, as each of them are subject to cycles. For example, being a owner now and not having to deal with rent increases is great. But if one bought in 2013 the probably felt different a couple of years down the road.

One other thing about renting is that single or couples without kids probably have a lot more ability to "adjust" their housing if necessary. The stability in b) is one intangible that may have value to some (and for local school, you may need a specific address for registration). But as you noted, b) will likely require a larger total payment towards housing. Some of this you get back via principal/loan amortization, but it does reduce total spending flexibility.

Also, the math is probably somewhat different for HDBs (also, for citizens it will be different due to various grants).

[Wd40]

My wife and I are PR for more than 8 years but we did not buy a house yet. Mostly out of choice cuz I think investing is financially more savvy.

We had a good run renting too since 2012. We just renewed for 2 years in June and got out 2 room condo renewed for 2900. Not bad given the situation. I have to say, that after a fair share of so-so landlords, our current one is really nice. I was expecting 3300-3500 so was surprised at 2900. Not bad.

Hi. A couple of other thoughts here. Just bear in mind that the story would probably look a lot different if the base period was 2000 to 2011. I think over 100 years, your strategy pays off (Real Estate is a low yielding asset). However, there can easily be 5-10 year periods were these two assets have greatly different performance. One advantage of owning your home is that your cost is fixed and theoretically if you remain employed and avoid lifestyle inflation the "housing cost" becomes a lower percentage of your income each year. Further, while watching a portfolio go up probably feels good, having to downsize your housing or move to a less desirable location probably feels twice as bad. I.e. owning a home is also a direct hedge to one of your biggest expenses (consumption of real estate). Given all these factors, it's probably a reason some people will take a "low return" on housing.

So, I am probably not an expat giver PR but I rent despite having PR for a decade. Just feel it offers flexibility, freedom. I also rent away from MRT so prices r ok cuz I prefer driving.

Despite what I said above, I don't think renting is that bad either. Owning real estate here involves significant transaction costs. I also think people underestimate how quick their needs or preferences change. The area that kids are going to school can change every 4-6 years so there is an advantage in being able to move around (make their commute shorter). People may also want different things once their kids are gone or just get bored with any particular area. Flexibility as you say.

I also believe all property here is a depreciating asset. Maybe not in nominal terms, but in real terms I would say it is. For example, even freehold condos won't keep you on parity with the psf of a new or 5 year old resale freehold condo. Some of this is the development costs/premium but some of it is that (most) old condos just become less attractive over time. You can reno the inside of your unit but the grounds and surroundings are what they are (some areas maintain themselves better than others). I guess a lot of this is whether one likes new stuff or just likes their home.

The other challenge is that as you get older the ability to borrow money starts to decline every year. Even if you get en-bloc, you will likely be out of pocket to buy a new(er) replacement unless you downsize or change location. Of course, in later stages of life I think people are more likely to be content with a specific location (less of a need to change unless you are forced to do so). But it takes some thought as to where you want to be before the constraint above kicks in.

I agree with u on most points. Our window was from 2012-2022 which set us up with a good platform. This year was bad, but if I look at 10 yrs , it was still good. Not buying a house n putting money in invested worked for us very well. At the same time, rents were very reasonable in the past 10 years and always got covered by passive income. So I really don't feel that rental money was lost.

There are 2 other benefits of investing over buying house in my view:
1. First is that u strive to learn about investing which itself is something most don't. Investing is not just having extra money. Its an attitude. We became comfy with downturns etc over the past 10 years. Its more exciting this way to learn, read, etc.

2. Second is that if I had a 1 million loan, the first thing I would do it cut luxuries. We rent but drive a car. Its so much more fun to live nicely n yet be ready for future. I don't want to wait until 50s or 60s to live. So less loan and high passive income allows us to experience things which we mite have cut down if we had huge liabilities.

But I do see ur points. Very valid. We did get lucky from 2012-2022, particularly between 2017 to 2022.

You are dual income couple data science big shots with PR right? You can have the cake and eat it too man. Buying a property is part of the Singapore dream, especially your first property. Also buying the right property is also an investment which can give good returns.

[smoulder]

Property is still a poor investment, Wd40. Your first property will be your home, not an investment. If you are able to make some money from it, it's just a nice bonus, but certainly not a good investment.

The only property investment I would consider are REITS.

[midlet2013]

Hi. A couple of other thoughts here. Just bear in mind that the story would probably look a lot different if the base period was 2000 to 2011. I think over 100 years, your strategy pays off (Real Estate is a low yielding asset). However, there can easily be 5-10 year periods were these two assets have greatly different performance. One advantage of owning your home is that your cost is fixed and theoretically if you remain employed and avoid lifestyle inflation the "housing cost" becomes a lower percentage of your income each year. Further, while watching a portfolio go up probably feels good, having to downsize your housing or move to a less desirable location probably feels twice as bad. I.e. owning a home is also a direct hedge to one of your biggest expenses (consumption of real estate). Given all these factors, it's probably a reason some people will take a "low return" on housing.


Despite what I said above, I don't think renting is that bad either. Owning real estate here involves significant transaction costs. I also think people underestimate how quick their needs or preferences change. The area that kids are going to school can change every 4-6 years so there is an advantage in being able to move around (make their commute shorter). People may also want different things once their kids are gone or just get bored with any particular area. Flexibility as you say.

I also believe all property here is a depreciating asset. Maybe not in nominal terms, but in real terms I would say it is. For example, even freehold condos won't keep you on parity with the psf of a new or 5 year old resale freehold condo. Some of this is the development costs/premium but some of it is that (most) old condos just become less attractive over time. You can reno the inside of your unit but the grounds and surroundings are what they are (some areas maintain themselves better than others). I guess a lot of this is whether one likes new stuff or just likes their home.

The other challenge is that as you get older the ability to borrow money starts to decline every year. Even if you get en-bloc, you will likely be out of pocket to buy a new(er) replacement unless you downsize or change location. Of course, in later stages of life I think people are more likely to be content with a specific location (less of a need to change unless you are forced to do so). But it takes some thought as to where you want to be before the constraint above kicks in.

I agree with u on most points. Our window was from 2012-2022 which set us up with a good platform. This year was bad, but if I look at 10 yrs , it was still good. Not buying a house n putting money in invested worked for us very well. At the same time, rents were very reasonable in the past 10 years and always got covered by passive income. So I really don't feel that rental money was lost.

There are 2 other benefits of investing over buying house in my view:
1. First is that u strive to learn about investing which itself is something most don't. Investing is not just having extra money. Its an attitude. We became comfy with downturns etc over the past 10 years. Its more exciting this way to learn, read, etc.

2. Second is that if I had a 1 million loan, the first thing I would do it cut luxuries. We rent but drive a car. Its so much more fun to live nicely n yet be ready for future. I don't want to wait until 50s or 60s to live. So less loan and high passive income allows us to experience things which we mite have cut down if we had huge liabilities.

But I do see ur points. Very valid. We did get lucky from 2012-2022, particularly between 2017 to 2022.

You are dual income couple data science big shots with PR right? You can have the cake and eat it too man. Buying a property is part of the Singapore dream, especially your first property. Also buying the right property is also an investment which can give good returns.

What u say is true today. But it did not start that way. When we were around 28 yrs old, we had 4k between us due to graduate education. I worked as a data scientist for 5500$ for 2.5 years post PhD while average IT guys in banks made much more.

I can understand PR is not a fair game. And particularly for Indians. But Indians are also the biggest beneficiary of IT jobs and international mobility. So life is not always fair but we only whine about things where we get the raw deal.

We didn't have the best of the deal for many years. But, I kept on learning n going on. It took years to pay off and looking back, I am glad I had to suffer a bit cuz it inspired to to work hard, study and learn how to invest.

No one likes paying high rents. But, what's the point of whining about something you can't control. Instead find a solution instead of hoping some changes which bring rents down or special accommodations for expats. Unfortunately, solutions are never easy.

[midlet2013]

Property is still a poor investment, Wd40. Your first property will be your home, not an investment. If you are able to make some money from it, it's just a nice bonus, but certainly not a good investment.

The only property investment I would consider are REITS.

I totally agree with this. I for sure think, if we had purchased a house instead of invest 5 yrs back, our financial situation would be drastically different. Home ownership is definitely a dream and we will do it but when we feel more confident and ready.

[NYY1]

Property is still a poor investment, Wd40. Your first property will be your home, not an investment. If you are able to make some money from it, it's just a nice bonus, but certainly not a good investment.

The only property investment I would consider are REITS.

I totally agree with this. I for sure think, if we had purchased a house instead of invest 5 yrs back, our financial situation would be drastically different. Home ownership is definitely a dream and we will do it but when we feel more confident and ready.

Different properties are selling different things; some of these degrade faster than others while a few things remain scarce. Other policy changes over the years have also impacted segments in various ways (both positively and negatively). There are generalizations that on average, or in many cases, are true. At the same time, by definition very few things in life are (exactly) average.

There are many good property investments and many terrible ones as well (outside of the cycle movements). Obviously, people trumpet the successes and try to sweep the failures under the rug. So yes, it's not all roses and sunshine but it's not all terrible either.

There are good time and bad times in both cycles; beware of recency bias as to which is usually or always better.

[Lisafuller]

I'm currently only paying 1850 for a one bedroom apartment around Beauty World. I see similar apartments going for 3400 now. It is safe to say that the renewal in June will be hard to swallow. It will probably be double!


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I rented a 2 bed in Beauty World Centre (the shorter building - a bit run down) for $1300 a month in 1992. It was probably around 900fts but quite comfortable.

What! I live right by King Albert so I've frequented BW for over 2 decades. Never knew there were apartments.

[Lisafuller]

I'm the one who made a killing in the rental market. I rented a 2 story Black & White in Seletar Camp in 1983 for $400/month (bare unit). Lived there for 13 years before UDMC gave up management of the Reverted Properties and Mgmt was taken over by Pidemco (Premas) at the start of 1997. They went up on rental 3x during the 1997 Asian Financial Meltdown and in Dec 98 notified me my rent was going up to 1200/mo. I said screw you. In January 99 when the property Market bottomed out I booked the purchase of a resale 5 RM flat (4 BR). Still there, paid it of with a 14 years HDB Mortgage. Been laughing ever since.

Good on you! Tripling the rent is insane.