Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?

[malcontent]

I am counting down to leaving my self. I wish our place would go enbloc before then.

Same here, that would be nice, but we own a unit in the second largest freehold condominium complex in Singapore — it would probably take a consortium to raise the record-breaking 10 figure sum needed for the collective sale.

[PNGMK]

I am counting down to leaving my self. I wish our place would go enbloc before then.

Same here, that would be nice, but we own a unit in the second largest freehold condominium complex in Singapore — it would probably take a consortium to raise the record-breaking 10 figure sum needed for the collective sale.

I think the new ABSD rates are going to have a big effect on the market for enblocs. I've noticed for a while that Far East etc were buying up entire enblocs and renting them out (Chancery Court, Hill View Court are two examples I know of). This I think is driven by rent demand and a desire to land bank. I expected to see more corporatising of the residential real estate market as the returns are improving. I think, but am not sure, that ABSD does NOT apply with an enbloc sale - so in a way the new ABSD rates encourage enbloc sales as individual unit sales will ultimately be hit. Whether someone can stomach your place I am not sure. Chuan Park managed to do so with a huge chunk of land a year ago (admittedly with some legal issues).

[PNGMK]

I checked - "Housing Developers may apply for remission of 35% ABSD, subject to conditions".

Looks like enblocs may still go ahead.

https://www.iras.gov.sg/taxes/stamp-dut ... tial-units

[Wd40]

I just got this feel that the whole thing is going to implode very soon. Just look at this forum. Expats forum, but no expats anymore. Everyone is a landlord. The whole market seems to be one sided. When I go and look for houses, it is a only a few Indians who are now looking for houses. The Malaysians have all gone to JB. A couple of houses I have seen still havent been rented out and the agent for one of them actually told me accidently that rental market is softening.

Coincidently I just saw this article:
https://www.asiaone.com/money/rent-pric ... re-realtor

If you guys are into stocks, just look at how the SG REITs are doing. It is a good indication for what is to come next. I just feel SG has shot itself in the foot.

[NYY1]

I just got this feel that the whole thing is going to implode very soon. Just look at this forum. Expats forum, but no expats anymore. Everyone is a landlord. The whole market seems to be one sided. When I go and look for houses, it is a only a few Indians who are now looking for houses. The Malaysians have all gone to JB. A couple of houses I have seen still havent been rented out and the agent for one of them actually told me accidently that rental market is softening.

Coincidently I just saw this article:
https://www.asiaone.com/money/rent-pric ... re-realtor

If you guys are into stocks, just look at how the SG REITs are doing. It is a good indication for what is to come next. I just feel SG has shot itself in the foot.

This is what I've seen for a few months now in a handful of buildings I know.
-Good units in prime locations are still selling quickly at decent prices.
-Marginal units in a development are starting to be let go at fair prices / ask is not ridiculous. This is especially true if new developments will be completed nearby soon (i.e. new rental competition).
-Rents for older properties, even those in prime locations, stopped going up a while ago earlier this year.

[malcontent]

I just got this feel that the whole thing is going to implode very soon. Just look at this forum. Expats forum, but no expats anymore. Everyone is a landlord. The whole market seems to be one sided. When I go and look for houses, it is a only a few Indians who are now looking for houses. The Malaysians have all gone to JB. A couple of houses I have seen still havent been rented out and the agent for one of them actually told me accidently that rental market is softening.

Coincidently I just saw this article:
https://www.asiaone.com/money/rent-pric ... re-realtor

With Covid, property valuations were pretty much stagnant during the years 2020 and 2021, but over 2022 up to mid-2023, prices rose around 18%. You would think the additional cooling and the higher interest rates would dampen things, but it’s been surprisingly strong. I don’t discount the possibility that things might finally be peaking and we could see some moderate pull back or stagnation in the short term.

For rents, I think describing it as tumbling is a wish too far, a moderate pull back is probably the best anyone can hope for. We are not going to see a return to a renter’s market like I experienced in the early 2000’s, at least not anytime soon — that was only after years of property values dropping, in a big way — the likes of which has not been seen since.

In my view, when the government intervenes and applies cooling measures, it distorts reality and keeps prices artificially suppressed — so even though prices might seem high, the invisible hands of capitalism would have put prices significantly higher (had they been left unfettered). This, to me, explains why prices seem to defy logic at times - steady or rising when they are expected to fall.

[PNGMK]

Well I agree Mal. The gahmeh should stay right out of the condo market and stick to meddling in the HDB and landed market.

[Wd40]

When I say the market is entirely one sided, what I mean is all the people seeking rental units are Indian national foreigners. I have seen so many units in Jurong area and every place the previous tenant was an Indian and the people looking to rent are also Indians. The Malaysians have all gone to JB. So it is like Indians trying to reduce their rent Vs Chinese landlords/agents trying to extract maximum rent. This reminds me of Russell Peters standup comedy about why Indians and Chinese can't do business and this is happening here real time in Singapore, lol https://youtu.be/PAvX1rxlirs

[Max Headroom]

Funny that, the very same thing went through my head while reading your post on Tuesday. That skit still puts a smile on my face : )

[Lisafuller]

I just cant help but come back to your post and think how wrong you are about India.
SGDINR just hit 61.4, I saved about 80K SGD with my normal salary of 145k gross all-in salary, this year, with a family of 3.

80k SGD converts to 4.9Million INR and you could buy a nice house in a city like Bangalore for twice that amount fully paid, no loan.

So just 2 years of my savings is enough to buy a nice house in India. You are single and your salary is 180k.

It is very clear, you have some very idiosyncratic problem with India, maybe you belong to a minority community(Muslim?) I can understand why you would feel about India that way and dont want to even go there and your affinity towards Malaysia. Or may be other family problems which is why you dont even want to go and meet your family. But this is very specific problem to you and it is not a problem with India.

I'm impressed by your saving capabilities

Aren't you renting ? Doesn't your child go to school ? What do you guys eat ?

So many questions!!

I earned about the same ( till this year ) - supporting a wife , young child and 3 pets and I'm nowhere near this saving amount. My landlord eats about 4.1k/month

Well, here is the breakup for 2022. My rent was only 2300, from next month it is jumping to 3500. So last year was like my best year in terms of expenses. If you take out rent, school fees and income tax(I treat tax as expense) then my annual other expenses is like $15,200. This includes utilities, internet, groceries, eating out(we dont eat out a lot, wife is stay at home and cooks for us). Wife is also very low maintenance, we travel by B.M.W all the time, can't even remember when was the last time we took taxi. We dont skimp on food and other essentials. But there isnt a lot of discretionary or fun spending.




This year so far, though, I see that my other expenses have gone up, already in 8 months, I have hit 13k, so I am tracking about 20k in other expenses, for the year in addition to increase in rent. School fees also have gone up a bit and I have starting giving my wife an allowance of $300 per month. Until last year, I used to just tell her to spend whatever she needs. But she wouldnt spend. Then from late last year we decided I give her an allowance of $300, transfer to her account and then I dont count that amount any more in my networth and instead treat it as an expense, it is for her to spend as she wishes without asking me. But even then she doesnt spend it, lol. It has just accumulated in her account. I and my wife normally dont have any differences amongst us, she doesnt waste money and she is quite frugal like me, but we noticed some circumstances, like gifting to her family during our India trip last year, where I felt she couldnt gift freely to her relatives, because she thinks it is not her money, it is my money. So I told her, now this is your money, you can do whatever you want, you can gift it to your relatives freely, dont even ask me or tell me, I dont want to know. It is a tricky situation to be a non working spouse. I just feel for her. If I were her, I would rather work and have my own money to spend guilt free. But she doesnt like to take any bullshit from employers and hence she quit a well paying job and prefers to stay at home and be on her own terms.

You're really incredibly well organized, WD40! Unbelievable!

I track my comings and goings, but not nearly as closely as you do. I've gotten to an age where I don't worry about these things as much. As long as my daughter has what she needs and we're all living well I'm happy.

[Lisafuller]

^ I really need to start making excel sheets!!

But you do seem to live extremely frugal lives.

Well! For the 1st time I am experiencing the effects of lifestyle creep! My current house is a 5i HDB, it is nice and spacious 3 bedrooms, about 1300 sqft. We are just 3 of us, but we love the space and the fact that we each have our own rooms. I am a fussy sleeper, so I like to sleep all alone. We have got used to this. Until now my rent for 2300 and now that my landlord is increasing it to 3500, I decided to look for some 2 bedroom houses and I was really disasppointed with them. They are like half the size tiny 720 sqft, it is like you enter and it is over. The rent would reduce by max $500. But inspite of my super frugality and the fact that for 3 of us by Singapore standards a 5i is like super luxury, I cant go back to a 3NG or 3I flat. I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms. We cannot get ourselves to let go of the privacy and rent out our rooms.

Another thing we noticed, the newer built 2 bedroom houses are so tiny, but the layout is such that they made a coridor inside, which wastes whatever little space is left, how stupid? Also we noticed, the newer houses, have only namesake kitchen. There is hardly any space and our current house has a decent size kitchen and a smaller kitchen is a no go for us.

So housing is the biggest lifestyle creep. Even though we use cheap $200 xiaomi phones and are frual in everything else. The big expenses like housing hit us ultimately. The good thing we did is we decided not to go to a condo ever, even though rents were quite cheap couple of years ago. If we got used to a condo then we pretty much have to just leave Singapore for good and I know so many people who just did that.

The newer flats are unbelievably small. I wonder what the corridors are used for too. Seems awfully wasteful and impractical.

You made the right move, not renting in a condo, it's hard to go back from that. If we had to move out of our condo into a newer, smaller home, I don't think we could adapt to it.

[Lisafuller]

Well! For the 1st time I am experiencing the effects of lifestyle creep! My current house is a 5i HDB, it is nice and spacious 3 bedrooms, about 1300 sqft. We are just 3 of us, but we love the space and the fact that we each have our own rooms. I am a fussy sleeper, so I like to sleep all alone. We have got used to this. Until now my rent for 2300 and now that my landlord is increasing it to 3500, I decided to look for some 2 bedroom houses and I was really disasppointed with them. They are like half the size tiny 720 sqft, it is like you enter and it is over. The rent would reduce by max $500. But inspite of my super frugality and the fact that for 3 of us by Singapore standards a 5i is like super luxury, I cant go back to a 3NG or 3I flat. I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms. We cannot get ourselves to let go of the privacy and rent out our rooms.

Another thing we noticed, the newer built 2 bedroom houses are so tiny, but the layout is such that they made a coridor inside, which wastes whatever little space is left, how stupid? Also we noticed, the newer houses, have only namesake kitchen. There is hardly any space and our current house has a decent size kitchen and a smaller kitchen is a no go for us.

So housing is the biggest lifestyle creep. Even though we use cheap $200 xiaomi phones and are frual in everything else. The big expenses like housing hit us ultimately. The good thing we did is we decided not to go to a condo ever, even though rents were quite cheap couple of years ago. If we got used to a condo then we pretty much have to just leave Singapore for good and I know so many people who just did that.

What year did the units you look at TOP? They should be relatively new based on what you wrote (size and corridor). There should be some 3 bedroom units at about 1,000 sq ft (4 room flat), but I doubt your rent will be much lower.

FWIW, the current build sizes are basically the same for HDBs and (most) condos (even in the more expensive districts).
-3 room HDB (2 bedrooms) vs. 2 BR Condo; ~700 sq ft +/- for both.
-4 room HDB (3 bedrooms) vs. 3 BR Condo: 1,000 sq ft vs ~900 - 1,100 sq ft.
-5 room HDB (3 bedrooms) vs. large 3 BR Condo or 4 BR Condo: ~1,200 sq ft vs. 1,100 - 1,400 sq ft.

I think the kitchen size goes up in the 4 room and 5 room HDBs, although it's still probably smaller than the kitchens in the older ones (and narrower vs. a whole room). Most of the designs (for both) will have some type of corridor, although it can be avoided somewhat if one of the bedrooms is on the opposite side of the unit (not as common). The HDBs tend to have better ventilation and the kitchen is separate (or can be separated) in the smaller units.

The older units are definitely better from a space perspective, although there are other issues to deal with.

Yeah, I looked at both new 5 year ago TOP 2 bedder HDBs as well as 30-40 year old 2 bedder HDB.

I know every kind of layout now, lol. The new 2 bedders are a no go because the living room and kitchen are so tiny. The older 2 bedders kitchen is better, living room is no better. But if I am forced I would choose old 2 bedder Vs new 2 bedder. The novelty of corridor inside such a tiny 600-700 sqft house is a joke.

When we lived in Tampines, we lived in a old 3A house, which is like 75sqm or 800sqft. This was okay for us back then. But now in Jurong and Bukit Batok all the older design 2 bedder we saw seem to be 3S/I/NG not 3A. So they are about 65sqm. These feel very tiny to me and just can't imagine living in these now after living in a houses twice that size.

Just for perspective, my current 5i house, the living and dining area are in an L shape and there is a kitchen to complete that L into a rectangle. So just the area of this living+dining+kitchen of my current house = The whole area of a 2 bedder, which I went and viewed which includes store room 2 bathrooms and 2 bedrooms also. Can't imagine how can people live in such tiny spaces.

You are right that a 1000sqft 3 bedroom is like perfect for us, but they all are priced at $3800-4200 now. My current place is being offered at a slight discount to me for $3500. The tiny 2 bedder houses are $3000. So even if I compromise and move to the tiny houses, I will save only $500. Hence I just have to accept this lifestyle creep rather than downgrade.

Good choice. Downgrade is too massive to justify saving $500.

The only HDBs, I would want are the maisonettes and multi-generation homes/jumbo flats, these are the hardest to come by for obvious reasons.

[TVworkshop]

Nope, it is not anymore.

If you have the chance to leave Singapore, pick up your stuff and go. What is happening now in Singapore is just the beginning. Next decade, the cost of living will become unbearable for expats but also for Singaporeans.

I Love Singapore but I moved out already 5 years ago since I predicted this already 5 years ago.
I still live close to Singapore in Batam and in my opinion it is more the real deal, feeling of living in the real world in Batam. With respect for Singapore but it is still a bubble where they all live in:):).

Success with your decision.

Emile