Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?

[Wd40]

BTW, @smoulder your view of India as an emerging market and hence currency weakness is a bit old school. If you see since the pandemic, RBI(India's central bank) has managed the currency and inflation much better than some of the developed markets. I have more faith in the rupee than in the pound sterling, Euro for example, or even the Malaysian Ringgit.

SGD ofcourse is a well managed currency, but you can see how inflation has gone crazy here in housing and COE etc. As a rupee earner and a rupee consumer in India, they are better off than an SGD earner and an SGD consumer. Indian mortgage rates are actually below 2019 levels and even Malaysia mortgage rates haven't gone up. So I would actually say both Indian and Malaysian central banks have come out on tops relative to MAS, in terms of what their role is(stable prices and maintain growth)

Nothing to do with old school. And not about who managed inflation. Just looking at how much bang I get for my buck.

In my case, I am settled here. Which means I need to convert my INR to SGD and bring it over. It has little value sitting in India. Simple math tells me that as INR value declines in relation to the SGD, I am going to end up with less money.

I often theorize what options exist for people such as you who are earning here and will eventually move back to India. One option would be to keep moving the money to India which is what you are doing. Second option would be to keep it in SGD and draw down periodically when you need it. Third option is move it in a lumpsum when you move back. Although, to be honest I'm not sure which one is most efficient in terms of capital gains tax when you draw down in India.

Now about mitigating decline in currency by picking an appropriate instrument of investment - I hear you, but you will have to have your investments work harder to do that mitigation. This may be a tall ask for the average investor.

Keeping money in SGD without investing is also a losing proposition. Anybody who sends money to India wont leave it in a bank account, they would do NRE FDs or invest in it mutual funds or buy property.

So if your argument is keep money in SGD without investing vs investing poorly in India. I would say, do the right thing and learn investing. It is not very difficult to do.You can choose index funds and do a 50:50 asset allocation.So key here is to put your money to work, country of domicile doesn't matter.

[smoulder]

BTW, @smoulder your view of India as an emerging market and hence currency weakness is a bit old school. If you see since the pandemic, RBI(India's central bank) has managed the currency and inflation much better than some of the developed markets. I have more faith in the rupee than in the pound sterling, Euro for example, or even the Malaysian Ringgit.

SGD ofcourse is a well managed currency, but you can see how inflation has gone crazy here in housing and COE etc. As a rupee earner and a rupee consumer in India, they are better off than an SGD earner and an SGD consumer. Indian mortgage rates are actually below 2019 levels and even Malaysia mortgage rates haven't gone up. So I would actually say both Indian and Malaysian central banks have come out on tops relative to MAS, in terms of what their role is(stable prices and maintain growth)

Nothing to do with old school. And not about who managed inflation. Just looking at how much bang I get for my buck.

In my case, I am settled here. Which means I need to convert my INR to SGD and bring it over. It has little value sitting in India. Simple math tells me that as INR value declines in relation to the SGD, I am going to end up with less money.

I often theorize what options exist for people such as you who are earning here and will eventually move back to India. One option would be to keep moving the money to India which is what you are doing. Second option would be to keep it in SGD and draw down periodically when you need it. Third option is move it in a lumpsum when you move back. Although, to be honest I'm not sure which one is most efficient in terms of capital gains tax when you draw down in India.

Now about mitigating decline in currency by picking an appropriate instrument of investment - I hear you, but you will have to have your investments work harder to do that mitigation. This may be a tall ask for the average investor.

Yes, we need to learn to invest once we have a big Corpus. Currency value going down is only for people who keep it in a savings bank account. But learning investing is not difficult. You can choose index funds and do a 50:50 asset allocation. Keeping money in SGD and not investing, is also a losing proposition. In India most people will atleast do FDs or buy property, in Singapore people who don't know how to invest would just keep in a bank account. So key here is to put your money to work, country of domicile doesn't matter.

Not really. Currency decline is eating into investment returns. In my case, I have most of my INR invested in an INR denominated Nasdaq 100 ETF. So it is generating good returns. However, when I do sell, I'm going to incur 10 percent LTCG tax. Additionally, the currency decline is going to further eat up the gains. So I'm not getting the same returns as the Nasdaq. Off by a long way. I would have to be really exceptional at picking shares to make up for those losses. That means that I would not only have to beat the market, I'd also have to beat it by such a margin, that it would make up for the currency decline. That frankly is beyond the capabilities of even the top guys in the game, forget about guys like you and I.

You can compare that with keeping it in a Singapore trading account, converting the SGD to USD and investing in the QQQ and maybe even a leveraged ETF. You know which of these 2 will give you better returns.

[malcontent]

The older 3 and 4 took flats built in the 80s & 90s have pretty huge bedrooms where you can place a bunk bed (or king sized bed) and still have space for wardrobe & tables. Or instead of a wardrobe & table, put another bunk bed or fill the floor with mattresses.

The master bedrooms, you can put a queen sized bed and multiple mattresses on the floor. That’s how many people can sleep in one room.

My parents old 4 room flat built in the 80s had a very looong living room that can be easily divided into 2 rooms.

I’m currently living in an old 3-room flat with a huge kitchen which is kind of a pity since I seldom cook lol. This is a temporary space as I wait for MOP. I know people who buy old 3-room HDBs and shrink the kitchen during renovation to expand the size of the living room.

Before covid I bought my current house for $260K or so, and now it’s close to $400K. I’m astounded since my flat is kinda old too.

In Singapore for most people their property is their primary house and not an investment. So the value going up is of no use to them. For expats it is different if they plan to sell it and go back to their home country. So SG property prices and mortgage rates going up is actually is negative but somehow people don't see it that way.

Yep exactly what I keep telling my wife as well. Mainly because we keep hearing stories about some property growing in value at a really fast clip. The problem is that it doesn't represent the market as a whole. Additionally, your house can't be counted as an investment.

A lot of people here seem to have a wildly irrational fetish for properties, and it makes little financial sense. On average, equities double every 7 years. Most people don’t see that because they don’t stay the course. For properties, you’ll typically wait 15-20 years for it to double in price - but people are more likely to stay the course… I suspect that is why so many think it’s a better investment, simply because it’s harder to trade and it stops their itchy fingers.

[Wd40]

Not really. Currency decline is eating into investment returns. In my case, I have most of my INR invested in an INR denominated Nasdaq 100 ETF. So it is generating good returns. However, when I do sell, I'm going to incur 10 percent LTCG tax. Additionally, the currency decline is going to further eat up the gains. So I'm not getting the same returns as the Nasdaq. Off by a long way. I would have to be really exceptional at picking shares to make up for those losses. That means that I would not only have to beat the market, I'd also have to beat it by such a margin, that it would make up for the currency decline. That frankly is beyond the capabilities of even the top guys in the game, forget about guys like you and I.

You can compare that with keeping it in a Singapore trading account, converting the SGD to USD and investing in the QQQ and maybe even a leveraged ETF. You know which of these 2 will give you better returns.

Well if your end use of that money is to spend in Singapore dollars, then by all means, keep it domiciled in Singapore. But my end use of that money to spend in Indian rupees.

In the end, all this is theory, the actual human behaviour and realized returns matter much than any FX losses or taxes. For me I find it much more easier that my money is in India domicile funds and I think of it as my retirement money so I let it compound and stay there. There is much less flexibility in investing from India and because of the taxes, I actually dont do any itchy fingers trading like I used to do it here.

Your original premise was that you lose out to currency by investing in India. To that; my stance is nobody can be sure how SGD will do in the future and in your case, your home is Singapore so you can tie your future with Singapore's future good or bad. But my future is not in Singapore, so there is no reason for me to tie my future with Singapore's future, when I have no right to reside here.

[Wd40]

A lot of people here seem to have a wildly irrational fetish for properties, and it makes little financial sense. On average, equities double every 7 years. Most people don’t see that because they don’t stay the course. For properties, you’ll typically wait 15-20 years for it to double in price - but people are more likely to stay the course… I suspect that is why so many think it’s a better investment, simply because it’s harder to trade and it stops their itchy fingers.

There are also no local role models in Singapore for stock market investing. There is no local Warren Buffet in Singapore, there is some joker called Chicken Genious a youtuber, lol. Singapore capital markets are also not well developed. You just have the 3 banks and then property related counters. SGX has pretty much stagnated. The locals have some kind of affinity towards China stocks, maybe due to the cultural similarities, but China has burned them badly.

I noticed Temasek portfolio also didnt do well recently. They have 22% exposure to China, I am sure is hurting them badly. The Singapore investment landscape is messy, which is why I gravitated towards India. It is much better out there. The market is much more matured, vibrant and capitalist flavor to it. China could be the fastest growing country for decades, but the returns never accrued to investors.

[smoulder]

Not really. Currency decline is eating into investment returns. In my case, I have most of my INR invested in an INR denominated Nasdaq 100 ETF. So it is generating good returns. However, when I do sell, I'm going to incur 10 percent LTCG tax. Additionally, the currency decline is going to further eat up the gains. So I'm not getting the same returns as the Nasdaq. Off by a long way. I would have to be really exceptional at picking shares to make up for those losses. That means that I would not only have to beat the market, I'd also have to beat it by such a margin, that it would make up for the currency decline. That frankly is beyond the capabilities of even the top guys in the game, forget about guys like you and I.

You can compare that with keeping it in a Singapore trading account, converting the SGD to USD and investing in the QQQ and maybe even a leveraged ETF. You know which of these 2 will give you better returns.

Well if your end use of that money is to spend in Singapore dollars, then by all means, keep it domiciled in Singapore. But my end use of that money to spend in Indian rupees.

In the end, all this is theory, the actual human behaviour and realized returns matter much than any FX losses or taxes. For me I find it much more easier that my money is in India domicile funds and I think of it as my retirement money so I let it compound and stay there. There is much less flexibility in investing from India and because of the taxes, I actually dont do any itchy fingers trading like I used to do it here.

Your original premise was that you lose out to currency by investing in India. To that; my stance is nobody can be sure how SGD will do in the future and in your case, your home is Singapore so you can tie your future with Singapore's future good or bad. But my future is not in Singapore, so there is no reason for me to tie my future with Singapore's future, when I have no right to reside here.

Well, actually, maybe I wasn't clear enough. My investment is through a Singapore registered trading account in which the input is SGD, but the bulk of the investment is in ETFs which are USD denominated. I have faith in the US MNCs and the USD above others.

As for China - I do notice a lot of Singaporeans who post about investment seem to have a tilt towards China which I find is irrational and more to do with Chinese ethnicity pride. But China seems to have scored too many self goals recently with it's constant war mongering. The last straw seems to be the poor handling of covid.

[Wd40]

Well, actually, maybe I wasn't clear enough. My investment is through a Singapore registered trading account in which the input is SGD, but the bulk of the investment is in ETFs which are USD denominated. I have faith in the US MNCs and the USD above others.

This is a good approach. Investing is all about leap of faith. What matters most is how much we actually save an invest and how disciplined we are. The actual instruments wont matter so much as long as you are well diversified. I track my networth in both INR and SGD.

Here is my performance in SGD terms. All figures in '000 SGD.
I came to Singapore in 2009 and networth was like peanuts.
Since then I have saved 924K from my salary and grown it to 1429k, so about 417k growth. so 45% growth, I am not a fan of XIRR, I have a crude way to do annualized growth rate. Take the 45% cumulative growth and divide the period by 2, so 14 years/2= 7 years. 45/7= 6.42% annual growth rate in SGD terms.

[malcontent]

Yes… that is very heavy in India, I would be concerned about the risks due to limited diversification (not currency, but industry & country risk). I know India has done well in the last decade, so be careful as that can lull one into complacency. I would slowly shift toward a more balanced global equity position over time... and this is true even if I were Indian and planned to move back. But that is me.

I think every investor should have a broadly diversified core equity holding. For local investors and most non-US expats, one of the best ways to do that is using a low cost global ETF such as London traded ISAC. You can also add CSPX and/or EIMI for additional US/EM tilt, plus home country tilt, if desired. Diversification in a portfolio is not exciting — it’s about safety in numbers… and it’s the thing that can give you the confidence to stay the course when there is a genuine calamity. I slept like a baby through the 2008 crisis and the 2020 Covid crash - didn’t sell a thing, and actually bought a little extra.

[Wd40]

Yes… that is very heavy in India, I would be concerned about the risks due to limited diversification (not currency, but industry & country risk). I know India has done well in the last decade, so be careful as that can lull one into complacency. I would slowly shift toward a more balanced global equity position over time... and this is true even if I were Indian and planned to move back. But that is me.

I think every investor should have a broadly diversified core equity holding. For local investors and most non-US expats, one of the best ways to do that is using a low cost global ETF such as London traded ISAC. You can also add CSPX and/or EIMI for additional US/EM tilt, plus home country tilt, if desired. Diversification in a portfolio is not exciting — it’s about safety in numbers… and it’s the thing that can give you the confidence to stay the course when there is a genuine calamity. I slept like a baby through the 2008 crisis and the 2020 Covid crash - didn’t sell a thing, and actually bought a little extra.

I agree with you. Actually the column categories are a bit misleading. I split by domicile, so when I say Indian equity, I mean equities I invest from my Indian account, I invest into global equity from my Indian account. Current split is about 50:50 Indian and global equity within my India account.

But my bonds are entirely India, so there is single country risk here. But I can't help it, if I am planning to retire in India, I should invest in Indian bonds which track Indian inflation. I could further reduce allocation to bonds and increase allocation to equity to reduce this risk since equities over long term beat bonds.

[malcontent]

I think a lot of people associate country risk with GDP performance; while it’s true that companies located in fast growing economies often benefit from GDP growth, what matters is how well those companies are able to grow their own earnings. Stock prices are ultimately underpinned by earnings, regardless of where they are getting those earnings from.

The S&P 500 components derive a substantial amount of their earnings from outside the US, and it’s usually in areas where they have a distinct advantage over other competitors in the world. In some cases, local companies don’t stand a chance or have to accept lower profits and higher risks. The US multinational that I work for here earns substantial profits in fast growing emerging markets.

[emergency234]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

About 90% of it is in India. Both India equity funds and global equity funds but domiciled in India. I have a 50% in equities and 50% in bond funds. Again Indian rupee bond funds. In Singapore I just have my employer pension fund.

Could this be one of the reasons why you haven't been successful in your PR applications ?

That almost all your money is moving out of the country

[Wd40]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

About 90% of it is in India. Both India equity funds and global equity funds but domiciled in India. I have a 50% in equities and 50% in bond funds. Again Indian rupee bond funds. In Singapore I just have my employer pension fund.

Could this be one of the reasons why you haven't been successful in your PR applications ?

That almost all your money is moving out of the country

I doubt it. When I applied PR for the first time, I had my money here. They asked more details of my extended families on both sides and then rejected me. Then I have applied many times later and I had some money here. I had lost my job here in between and almost had to go back for good, but luckily I found another job last moment. So around that time I had moved all my money to India again.

Anyways people have been here for as long as I have and don't even have saved 10% of what I have saved. So I don't think money should be the criteria. Money is fluid can be moved back anytime, if they gave me PR.

Anyways man, when I was in India some 15 years ago with my networth just 2% of my current networth I was feeling like a winner there. Top of the world, I used to drive a car and go on lot of vacations. But ever since I have come to Singapore I have been treated like a loser and even I have been treating myself like a loser. Hell with it man, I have 1 million USD, I am probably in the top 10% richest in the world. I can buy EU citizenship via Malta immigration program by spending 100k Euros. In the end money talks. SG passport can give you access to 500 countries and planets maybe, but in the end you need money to make use of that passport too.

[smoulder]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

About 90% of it is in India. Both India equity funds and global equity funds but domiciled in India. I have a 50% in equities and 50% in bond funds. Again Indian rupee bond funds. In Singapore I just have my employer pension fund.

Could this be one of the reasons why you haven't been successful in your PR applications ?

That almost all your money is moving out of the country

The ICA don't have the visibility into your bank account and where your money is going. You are only giving them visibility into your IRAS tax deductions.

[PNGMK]

Well, actually, maybe I wasn't clear enough. My investment is through a Singapore registered trading account in which the input is SGD, but the bulk of the investment is in ETFs which are USD denominated. I have faith in the US MNCs and the USD above others.

This is a good approach. Investing is all about leap of faith. What matters most is how much we actually save an invest and how disciplined we are. The actual instruments wont matter so much as long as you are well diversified. I track my networth in both INR and SGD.

Here is my performance in SGD terms. All figures in '000 SGD.
I came to Singapore in 2009 and networth was like peanuts.
Since then I have saved 924K from my salary and grown it to 1429k, so about 417k growth. so 45% growth, I am not a fan of XIRR, I have a crude way to do annualized growth rate. Take the 45% cumulative growth and divide the period by 2, so 14 years/2= 7 years. 45/7= 6.42% annual growth rate in SGD terms.

This is really good work. Evidence of discipline and DCA and the magic of compounded returns.

[Wd40]

Well, actually, maybe I wasn't clear enough. My investment is through a Singapore registered trading account in which the input is SGD, but the bulk of the investment is in ETFs which are USD denominated. I have faith in the US MNCs and the USD above others.

This is a good approach. Investing is all about leap of faith. What matters most is how much we actually save an invest and how disciplined we are. The actual instruments wont matter so much as long as you are well diversified. I track my networth in both INR and SGD.

Here is my performance in SGD terms. All figures in '000 SGD.
I came to Singapore in 2009 and networth was like peanuts.
Since then I have saved 924K from my salary and grown it to 1429k, so about 417k growth. so 45% growth, I am not a fan of XIRR, I have a crude way to do annualized growth rate. Take the 45% cumulative growth and divide the period by 2, so 14 years/2= 7 years. 45/7= 6.42% annual growth rate in SGD terms.

This is really good work. Evidence of discipline and DCA and the magic of compounded returns.

Thanks!