Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?

[Wd40]

^ I really need to start making excel sheets!!

But you do seem to live extremely frugal lives.

For at least the last 5 years, practically all of my financial affairs are now managed in the Google Sheets app on my phone. I can’t recommend it enough.

I use formulas to break out my mortgage payments into principle and interest payments (I only treat the interest as an expense). I can run what-if scenarios on how interest rate changes could impact my payments. All investments (except my home) get marked to market automatically using the =GOOGLEFINANCE formula. At the end of each year, I copy the current sheet to a new year and switch the formulas to values in the old sheet, so I have a static historical record. If you want to get fancy, you can use =SPARKLINE formulas to put graphs into cells to see trends, but it has no practical use for a buy and hold investor like me — what is useful is tracking my allocation, which I do need to manage.

I personally prefer simplicity over accuracy to the using complex formulas Maybe because I was never really good at math, I am not a fan of XIRR kind of formulas. I do more like a year over year comparisons i.e. I take my networth as of December as the base and then keep monthly snapshots of my networth and then I use my monthly savings to calculate my Year to date gains by stripping out the new savings from the networth.

I never had a mortgage, but if it was my primary house, I guess I would just treat the whole mortgage payment as an expense, for simplicity sake.

[Wd40]

^ I really need to start making excel sheets!!

But you do seem to live extremely frugal lives.

Well! For the 1st time I am experiencing the effects of lifestyle creep! My current house is a 5i HDB, it is nice and spacious 3 bedrooms, about 1300 sqft. We are just 3 of us, but we love the space and the fact that we each have our own rooms. I am a fussy sleeper, so I like to sleep all alone. We have got used to this. Until now my rent for 2300 and now that my landlord is increasing it to 3500, I decided to look for some 2 bedroom houses and I was really disasppointed with them. They are like half the size tiny 720 sqft, it is like you enter and it is over. The rent would reduce by max $500. But inspite of my super frugality and the fact that for 3 of us by Singapore standards a 5i is like super luxury, I cant go back to a 3NG or 3I flat. I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms. We cannot get ourselves to let go of the privacy and rent out our rooms.

Another thing we noticed, the newer built 2 bedroom houses are so tiny, but the layout is such that they made a coridor inside, which wastes whatever little space is left, how stupid? Also we noticed, the newer houses, have only namesake kitchen. There is hardly any space and our current house has a decent size kitchen and a smaller kitchen is a no go for us.

So housing is the biggest lifestyle creep. Even though we use cheap $200 xiaomi phones and are frual in everything else. The big expenses like housing hit us ultimately. The good thing we did is we decided not to go to a condo ever, even though rents were quite cheap couple of years ago. If we got used to a condo then we pretty much have to just leave Singapore for good and I know so many people who just did that.

[NYY1]

Well! For the 1st time I am experiencing the effects of lifestyle creep! My current house is a 5i HDB, it is nice and spacious 3 bedrooms, about 1300 sqft. We are just 3 of us, but we love the space and the fact that we each have our own rooms. I am a fussy sleeper, so I like to sleep all alone. We have got used to this. Until now my rent for 2300 and now that my landlord is increasing it to 3500, I decided to look for some 2 bedroom houses and I was really disasppointed with them. They are like half the size tiny 720 sqft, it is like you enter and it is over. The rent would reduce by max $500. But inspite of my super frugality and the fact that for 3 of us by Singapore standards a 5i is like super luxury, I cant go back to a 3NG or 3I flat. I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms. We cannot get ourselves to let go of the privacy and rent out our rooms.

Another thing we noticed, the newer built 2 bedroom houses are so tiny, but the layout is such that they made a coridor inside, which wastes whatever little space is left, how stupid? Also we noticed, the newer houses, have only namesake kitchen. There is hardly any space and our current house has a decent size kitchen and a smaller kitchen is a no go for us.

So housing is the biggest lifestyle creep. Even though we use cheap $200 xiaomi phones and are frual in everything else. The big expenses like housing hit us ultimately. The good thing we did is we decided not to go to a condo ever, even though rents were quite cheap couple of years ago. If we got used to a condo then we pretty much have to just leave Singapore for good and I know so many people who just did that.

What year did the units you look at TOP? They should be relatively new based on what you wrote (size and corridor). There should be some 3 bedroom units at about 1,000 sq ft (4 room flat), but I doubt your rent will be much lower.

FWIW, the current build sizes are basically the same for HDBs and (most) condos (even in the more expensive districts).
-3 room HDB (2 bedrooms) vs. 2 BR Condo; ~700 sq ft +/- for both.
-4 room HDB (3 bedrooms) vs. 3 BR Condo: 1,000 sq ft vs ~900 - 1,100 sq ft.
-5 room HDB (3 bedrooms) vs. large 3 BR Condo or 4 BR Condo: ~1,200 sq ft vs. 1,100 - 1,400 sq ft.

I think the kitchen size goes up in the 4 room and 5 room HDBs, although it's still probably smaller than the kitchens in the older ones (and narrower vs. a whole room). Most of the designs (for both) will have some type of corridor, although it can be avoided somewhat if one of the bedrooms is on the opposite side of the unit (not as common). The HDBs tend to have better ventilation and the kitchen is separate (or can be separated) in the smaller units.

The older units are definitely better from a space perspective, although there are other issues to deal with.

[Wd40]

Well! For the 1st time I am experiencing the effects of lifestyle creep! My current house is a 5i HDB, it is nice and spacious 3 bedrooms, about 1300 sqft. We are just 3 of us, but we love the space and the fact that we each have our own rooms. I am a fussy sleeper, so I like to sleep all alone. We have got used to this. Until now my rent for 2300 and now that my landlord is increasing it to 3500, I decided to look for some 2 bedroom houses and I was really disasppointed with them. They are like half the size tiny 720 sqft, it is like you enter and it is over. The rent would reduce by max $500. But inspite of my super frugality and the fact that for 3 of us by Singapore standards a 5i is like super luxury, I cant go back to a 3NG or 3I flat. I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms. We cannot get ourselves to let go of the privacy and rent out our rooms.

Another thing we noticed, the newer built 2 bedroom houses are so tiny, but the layout is such that they made a coridor inside, which wastes whatever little space is left, how stupid? Also we noticed, the newer houses, have only namesake kitchen. There is hardly any space and our current house has a decent size kitchen and a smaller kitchen is a no go for us.

So housing is the biggest lifestyle creep. Even though we use cheap $200 xiaomi phones and are frual in everything else. The big expenses like housing hit us ultimately. The good thing we did is we decided not to go to a condo ever, even though rents were quite cheap couple of years ago. If we got used to a condo then we pretty much have to just leave Singapore for good and I know so many people who just did that.

What year did the units you look at TOP? They should be relatively new based on what you wrote (size and corridor). There should be some 3 bedroom units at about 1,000 sq ft (4 room flat), but I doubt your rent will be much lower.

FWIW, the current build sizes are basically the same for HDBs and (most) condos (even in the more expensive districts).
-3 room HDB (2 bedrooms) vs. 2 BR Condo; ~700 sq ft +/- for both.
-4 room HDB (3 bedrooms) vs. 3 BR Condo: 1,000 sq ft vs ~900 - 1,100 sq ft.
-5 room HDB (3 bedrooms) vs. large 3 BR Condo or 4 BR Condo: ~1,200 sq ft vs. 1,100 - 1,400 sq ft.

I think the kitchen size goes up in the 4 room and 5 room HDBs, although it's still probably smaller than the kitchens in the older ones (and narrower vs. a whole room). Most of the designs (for both) will have some type of corridor, although it can be avoided somewhat if one of the bedrooms is on the opposite side of the unit (not as common). The HDBs tend to have better ventilation and the kitchen is separate (or can be separated) in the smaller units.

The older units are definitely better from a space perspective, although there are other issues to deal with.

Yeah, I looked at both new 5 year ago TOP 2 bedder HDBs as well as 30-40 year old 2 bedder HDB.

I know every kind of layout now, lol. The new 2 bedders are a no go because the living room and kitchen are so tiny. The older 2 bedders kitchen is better, living room is no better. But if I am forced I would choose old 2 bedder Vs new 2 bedder. The novelty of corridor inside such a tiny 600-700 sqft house is a joke.

When we lived in Tampines, we lived in a old 3A house, which is like 75sqm or 800sqft. This was okay for us back then. But now in Jurong and Bukit Batok all the older design 2 bedder we saw seem to be 3S/I/NG not 3A. So they are about 65sqm. These feel very tiny to me and just can't imagine living in these now after living in a houses twice that size.

Just for perspective, my current 5i house, the living and dining area are in an L shape and there is a kitchen to complete that L into a rectangle. So just the area of this living+dining+kitchen of my current house = The whole area of a 2 bedder, which I went and viewed which includes store room 2 bathrooms and 2 bedrooms also. Can't imagine how can people live in such tiny spaces.

You are right that a 1000sqft 3 bedroom is like perfect for us, but they all are priced at $3800-4200 now. My current place is being offered at a slight discount to me for $3500. The tiny 2 bedder houses are $3000. So even if I compromise and move to the tiny houses, I will save only $500. Hence I just have to accept this lifestyle creep rather than downgrade.

[malcontent]

I personally prefer simplicity over accuracy to the using complex formulas

I totally agree on keeping it simple. Each of my Google Sheets only contains at most 5-10 columns… that is the most that is practical on a phone. For investments it’s just 5 columns — sparkline, ticker symbol, current price, quantity owned and total value. The total value is divided by 1000 to simplify visually. Since I only have 8 investments, no scrolling is required. I don’t track gain or loss… I can refer to prior years, that is enough.

I am not hung up on details either. I don’t track anything monthly.

Expenses… actually, all outflows (about 20 rows) are in a separate sheet - used only for reference and planning - they don’t tie to anything and are not detailed or precise. Again, one sheet per year, and I don’t look at it but maybe once in 3-4 months.

[NYY1]

Yeah, I looked at both new 5 year ago TOP 2 bedder HDBs as well as 30-40 year old 2 bedder HDB.

I know every kind of layout now, lol. The new 2 bedders are a no go because the living room and kitchen are so tiny. The older 2 bedders kitchen is better, living room is no better. But if I am forced I would choose old 2 bedder Vs new 2 bedder. The novelty of corridor inside such a tiny 600-700 sqft house is a joke.

When we lived in Tampines, we lived in a old 3A house, which is like 75sqm or 800sqft. This was okay for us back then. But now in Jurong and Bukit Batok all the older design 2 bedder we saw seem to be 3S/I/NG not 3A. So they are about 65sqm. These feel very tiny to me and just can't imagine living in these now after living in a houses twice that size.

Just for perspective, my current 5i house, the living and dining area are in an L shape and there is a kitchen to complete that L into a rectangle. So just the area of this living+dining+kitchen of my current house = The whole area of a 2 bedder, which I went and viewed which includes store room 2 bathrooms and 2 bedrooms also. Can't imagine how can people live in such tiny spaces.

You are right that a 1000sqft 3 bedroom is like perfect for us, but they all are priced at $3800-4200 now. My current place is being offered at a slight discount to me for $3500. The tiny 2 bedder houses are $3000. So even if I compromise and move to the tiny houses, I will save only $500. Hence I just have to accept this lifestyle creep rather than downgrade.

Yeah, once you've looked at a lot of units, just by looking at the floor plan and total size you kind of know whether it will work for you or not. It actually makes looking for units much easier because you can ask about facing or view, and then quickly exclude.

For the 4 room HDBs, the living and dining are also compressed, and the 5 rooms feel more spacious in that regard. Not relevant for you but I tend to look at what walls are structural and which ones can be knocked down. For example, if you open up the second or last bedroom (700 sq ft or 900-1,000 sq ft unit respectively), the living / dining area will be a lot bigger.

The smaller units, whether 2 BR or 3 BR, tend to lack storage space as well (HDBs still have a shelter but not all condos do. Often, you need to get closer to 1,000 sq ft for this to be included).

[smoulder]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

[Wd40]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

About 90% of it is in India. Both India equity funds and global equity funds but domiciled in India. I have a 50% in equities and 50% in bond funds. Again Indian rupee bond funds. In Singapore I just have my employer pension fund.

This is my current snapshot. All figures are in INR lakhs.
1L INR(100k INR) = 1.6k SGD

[MOCHS]

I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms.

The older 3 and 4 took flats built in the 80s & 90s have pretty huge bedrooms where you can place a bunk bed (or king sized bed) and still have space for wardrobe & tables. Or instead of a wardrobe & table, put another bunk bed or fill the floor with mattresses.

The master bedrooms, you can put a queen sized bed and multiple mattresses on the floor. That’s how many people can sleep in one room.

My parents old 4 room flat built in the 80s had a very looong living room that can be easily divided into 2 rooms.

I’m currently living in an old 3-room flat with a huge kitchen which is kind of a pity since I seldom cook lol. This is a temporary space as I wait for MOP. I know people who buy old 3-room HDBs and shrink the kitchen during renovation to expand the size of the living room.

Before covid I bought my current house for $260K or so, and now it’s close to $400K. I’m astounded since my flat is kinda old too.

[smoulder]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

About 90% of it is in India. Both India equity funds and global equity funds but domiciled in India. I have a 50% in equities and 50% in bond funds. Again Indian rupee bond funds. In Singapore I just have my employer pension fund.

This is my current snapshot. All figures are in INR lakhs.
1L INR(100k INR) = 1.6k SGD

Thanks for sharing. Any particular reason why you chose to invest in India? The currency has been steadily weakening over the past decade. I'm waiting to get out whatever savings I have in India - a bit from when I worked there plus inheritance. I can only pray that it doesn't deteriorate further.

[Wd40]

Wd40, out of curiosity, what kind of investments do you have?

About 90% of it is in India. Both India equity funds and global equity funds but domiciled in India. I have a 50% in equities and 50% in bond funds. Again Indian rupee bond funds. In Singapore I just have my employer pension fund.

This is my current snapshot. All figures are in INR lakhs.
1L INR(100k INR) = 1.6k SGD

Thanks for sharing. Any particular reason why you chose to invest in India? The currency has been steadily weakening over the past decade. I'm waiting to get out whatever savings I have in India - a bit from when I worked there plus inheritance. I can only pray that it doesn't deteriorate further.

India is the only passport I have, so for simplicity sake I want to keep my money in the same place where I have the right to go and live.

Currency weakness is mitigated by superior market returns. Sensex has beaten most global benchmarks except Nasdaq. I can invest in Nasdaq from India. Also Indian fixed income rates more than make up for the FX decline.

[Wd40]

BTW, @smoulder your view of India as an emerging market and hence currency weakness is a bit old school. If you see since the pandemic, RBI(India's central bank) has managed the currency and inflation much better than some of the developed markets. I have more faith in the rupee than in the pound sterling, Euro for example, or even the Malaysian Ringgit.

SGD ofcourse is a well managed currency, but you can see how inflation has gone crazy here in housing and COE etc. As a rupee earner and a rupee consumer in India, they are better off than an SGD earner and an SGD consumer. Indian mortgage rates are actually below 2019 levels and even Malaysia mortgage rates haven't gone up. So I would actually say both Indian and Malaysian central banks have come out on tops relative to MAS, in terms of what their role is(stable prices and maintain growth)

[Wd40]

I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms.

The older 3 and 4 took flats built in the 80s & 90s have pretty huge bedrooms where you can place a bunk bed (or king sized bed) and still have space for wardrobe & tables. Or instead of a wardrobe & table, put another bunk bed or fill the floor with mattresses.

The master bedrooms, you can put a queen sized bed and multiple mattresses on the floor. That’s how many people can sleep in one room.

My parents old 4 room flat built in the 80s had a very looong living room that can be easily divided into 2 rooms.

I’m currently living in an old 3-room flat with a huge kitchen which is kind of a pity since I seldom cook lol. This is a temporary space as I wait for MOP. I know people who buy old 3-room HDBs and shrink the kitchen during renovation to expand the size of the living room.

Before covid I bought my current house for $260K or so, and now it’s close to $400K. I’m astounded since my flat is kinda old too.

In Singapore for most people their property is their primary house and not an investment. So the value going up is of no use to them. For expats it is different if they plan to sell it and go back to their home country. So SG property prices and mortgage rates going up is actually is negative but somehow people don't see it that way.

[smoulder]

BTW, @smoulder your view of India as an emerging market and hence currency weakness is a bit old school. If you see since the pandemic, RBI(India's central bank) has managed the currency and inflation much better than some of the developed markets. I have more faith in the rupee than in the pound sterling, Euro for example, or even the Malaysian Ringgit.

SGD ofcourse is a well managed currency, but you can see how inflation has gone crazy here in housing and COE etc. As a rupee earner and a rupee consumer in India, they are better off than an SGD earner and an SGD consumer. Indian mortgage rates are actually below 2019 levels and even Malaysia mortgage rates haven't gone up. So I would actually say both Indian and Malaysian central banks have come out on tops relative to MAS, in terms of what their role is(stable prices and maintain growth)

Nothing to do with old school. And not about who managed inflation. Just looking at how much bang I get for my buck.

In my case, I am settled here. Which means I need to convert my INR to SGD and bring it over. It has little value sitting in India. Simple math tells me that as INR value declines in relation to the SGD, I am going to end up with less money.

I often theorize what options exist for people such as you who are earning here and will eventually move back to India. One option would be to keep moving the money to India which is what you are doing. Second option would be to keep it in SGD and draw down periodically when you need it. Third option is move it in a lumpsum when you move back. Although, to be honest I'm not sure which one is most efficient in terms of capital gains tax when you draw down in India.

Now about mitigating decline in currency by picking an appropriate instrument of investment - I hear you, but you will have to have your investments work harder to do that mitigation. This may be a tall ask for the average investor.

[smoulder]

I wonder how Singaporeans multiple generations stuff themselves inside small spaces and some of them even rent out their rooms.

The older 3 and 4 took flats built in the 80s & 90s have pretty huge bedrooms where you can place a bunk bed (or king sized bed) and still have space for wardrobe & tables. Or instead of a wardrobe & table, put another bunk bed or fill the floor with mattresses.

The master bedrooms, you can put a queen sized bed and multiple mattresses on the floor. That’s how many people can sleep in one room.

My parents old 4 room flat built in the 80s had a very looong living room that can be easily divided into 2 rooms.

I’m currently living in an old 3-room flat with a huge kitchen which is kind of a pity since I seldom cook lol. This is a temporary space as I wait for MOP. I know people who buy old 3-room HDBs and shrink the kitchen during renovation to expand the size of the living room.

Before covid I bought my current house for $260K or so, and now it’s close to $400K. I’m astounded since my flat is kinda old too.

In Singapore for most people their property is their primary house and not an investment. So the value going up is of no use to them. For expats it is different if they plan to sell it and go back to their home country. So SG property prices and mortgage rates going up is actually is negative but somehow people don't see it that way.

Yep exactly what I keep telling my wife as well. Mainly because we keep hearing stories about some property growing in value at a really fast clip. The problem is that it doesn't represent the market as a whole. Additionally, your house can't be counted as an investment.