Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?

[Wd40]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I would say that is a self-inflicted state of mind. The longer you stay, the more you are a part of the Singapore story… no matter what ANYONE says, thinks or does to the contrary.

You might perceive that you are no longer welcome based on rejections or comments online. But the rejections are not personal, it’s more about supply vs. demand than anything particular to you. The comments online are from the fringe of society (every country has) and don’t represent the mainstream.

That said, if such thinking prompts one to look for greener pastures, it might be to their benefit, even if it’s not true… better than waiting in vain for an approval that never comes. We all know is a land of scarcity, which means the prospect of losing out is a constant.

I don't mean it in a literal sense. But I just feel, our value here is just not the same as it was before. We are not contributing or capable of contributing in the same way as before. We came here at a time before 2010 when foreigners were actively courted, we could get PR with just 1-2 years stays.

Foreigners could compete at the same level as locals in the housing market(No ABSD) and local schooling.

Things have incrementally changed and it is like the slow boiling frog syndrome. We kept adapting to the change as it was slow. But if we straight away flashback by 10 years, it is insane. It is just not the same. Either we continue in denial or we accept the fact. We are getting priced out in everyway, the rental market, the schooling etc. We just need one last push, the economy tanks and we get pushed out from the job market as well.

I am just asking people to get prepared.

BTW, we are definitely not part of the Singapore story. We are like present here, but we are like invisible. This thread is about foreigners but just look at the participation. It is almost 100% either PRs or like yourself who has ties with locals. That pretty much tells the story about foreigners.

This forum was very vibrant when I came here, look what it has become now. Just foreigners who managed to get PR are now participating. If that is not a giveaway what else is?

[jalanjalan]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I think that's a pretty fair assessment actually, and it's partly why I stopped procrastinating and applied for SC. I didn't want to remain just a guest in my home. It is a deeply personal decision though, there are so many variables to consider.

I don't know if foreigners (PRs included) have exactly worn out their welcome, but their purpose for being here has had to adapt to Singapore's different developmental stages. I guess that can amount to the same thing.

[malcontent]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I would say that is a self-inflicted state of mind. The longer you stay, the more you are a part of the Singapore story… no matter what ANYONE says, thinks or does to the contrary.

You might perceive that you are no longer welcome based on rejections or comments online. But the rejections are not personal, it’s more about supply vs. demand than anything particular to you. The comments online are from the fringe of society (every country has) and don’t represent the mainstream.

That said, if such thinking prompts one to look for greener pastures, it might be to their benefit, even if it’s not true… better than waiting in vain for an approval that never comes. We all know is a land of scarcity, which means the prospect of losing out is a constant.

I don't mean it in a literal sense. But I just feel, our value here is just not the same as it was before. We are not contributing or capable of contributing in the same way as before. We came here at a time before 2010 when foreigners were actively courted, we could get PR with just 1-2 years stays.

Foreigners could compete at the same level as locals in the housing market(No ABSD) and local schooling.

Things have incrementally changed and it is like the slow boiling frog syndrome. We kept adapting to the change as it was slow. But if we straight away flashback by 10 years, it is insane. It is just not the same. Either we continue in denial or we accept the fact. We are getting priced out in everyway, the rental market, the schooling etc. We just need one last push, the economy tanks and we get pushed out from the job market as well.

I am just asking people to get prepared.

BTW, we are definitely not part of the Singapore story. We are like present here, but we are like invisible. This thread is about foreigners but just look at the participation. It is almost 100% either PRs or like yourself who has ties with locals. That pretty much tells the story about foreigners.

This forum was very vibrant when I came here, look what it has become now. Just foreigners who managed to get PR are now participating. If that is not a giveaway what else is?

With the added color you provided, that makes total sense now. It’s not personal sentiments, it’s bread and butter issues. Fully agree.

[smoulder]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I think that's a pretty fair assessment actually, and it's partly why I stopped procrastinating and applied for SC. I didn't want to remain just a guest in my home. It is a deeply personal decision though, there are so many variables to consider.

I don't know if foreigners (PRs included) have exactly worn out their welcome, but their purpose for being here has had to adapt to Singapore's different developmental stages. I guess that can amount to the same thing.

I can relate to this. Even though I was a PR for just 3 years before becoming a citizen, I had long thought about the fact even with a wife and daughter who are citizens, there's no permanency until you are a citizen. So the moment I met the minimum eligibility of having been a PR for 2 years, I wasted no time and applied for citizenship.

On a side note, the other day I went over to one of the banks at Raffles Place to open a new account. The lady assumed that had I just arrived here and asked me for my passport. Brought back memories of the time when I was actually FOB!

[Lisafuller]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I would say that is a self-inflicted state of mind. The longer you stay, the more you are a part of the Singapore story… no matter what ANYONE says, thinks or does to the contrary.

You might perceive that you are no longer welcome based on rejections or comments online. But the rejections are not personal, it’s more about supply vs. demand than anything particular to you. The comments online are from the fringe of society (every country has) and don’t represent the mainstream.

That said, if such thinking prompts one to look for greener pastures, it might be to their benefit, even if it’s not true… better than waiting in vain for an approval that never comes. We all know is a land of scarcity, which means the prospect of losing out is a constant.

Agree. Though social media and media in general is supposed to widen our perspectives, often times it tends to distort our perception of reality because we take what we are exposed to as universal when it is very rarely the case. Negative comments from a couple Singaporeans online can very easily feel like the whole country is against you, but that is close to impossible.

[Lisafuller]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

Not necessarily, I believe the idea of being an expat, or a citizen of the world is that you seek environments that are most suitable for you based on your circumstances/desires at any given point in time. These circumstances can change drastically and very quickly, and when they do it's possible that the same place you initially thought would be home for the foreseeable future is no longer the place for you. In cases like this, it's best to just pack up your things and move on (where possible). However, there are instances where places where we only intended to be for a short while start to feel more like home, and that's perfectly fine too.

[Lisafuller]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I would say that is a self-inflicted state of mind. The longer you stay, the more you are a part of the Singapore story… no matter what ANYONE says, thinks or does to the contrary.

You might perceive that you are no longer welcome based on rejections or comments online. But the rejections are not personal, it’s more about supply vs. demand than anything particular to you. The comments online are from the fringe of society (every country has) and don’t represent the mainstream.

That said, if such thinking prompts one to look for greener pastures, it might be to their benefit, even if it’s not true… better than waiting in vain for an approval that never comes. We all know is a land of scarcity, which means the prospect of losing out is a constant.

I don't mean it in a literal sense. But I just feel, our value here is just not the same as it was before. We are not contributing or capable of contributing in the same way as before. We came here at a time before 2010 when foreigners were actively courted, we could get PR with just 1-2 years stays.

Foreigners could compete at the same level as locals in the housing market(No ABSD) and local schooling.

Things have incrementally changed and it is like the slow boiling frog syndrome. We kept adapting to the change as it was slow. But if we straight away flashback by 10 years, it is insane. It is just not the same. Either we continue in denial or we accept the fact. We are getting priced out in everyway, the rental market, the schooling etc. We just need one last push, the economy tanks and we get pushed out from the job market as well.

I am just asking people to get prepared.

BTW, we are definitely not part of the Singapore story. We are like present here, but we are like invisible. This thread is about foreigners but just look at the participation. It is almost 100% either PRs or like yourself who has ties with locals. That pretty much tells the story about foreigners.

This forum was very vibrant when I came here, look what it has become now. Just foreigners who managed to get PR are now participating. If that is not a giveaway what else is?

Slow boiling frog syndrome is an excellent way to put it, I get your point. That being said, I believe that for those who identify with what you've described, there are two options. Become a citizen and commit to singapore as your home, or leave.

[Lisafuller]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I think that's a pretty fair assessment actually, and it's partly why I stopped procrastinating and applied for SC. I didn't want to remain just a guest in my home. It is a deeply personal decision though, there are so many variables to consider.

I don't know if foreigners (PRs included) have exactly worn out their welcome, but their purpose for being here has had to adapt to Singapore's different developmental stages. I guess that can amount to the same thing.

Well put, completely agree. Here, you have to make a conscious decision to belong. If you refuse to commit, you will forever feel like an outsider, and the sense of isolation will only grow.

[Lisafuller]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I think that's a pretty fair assessment actually, and it's partly why I stopped procrastinating and applied for SC. I didn't want to remain just a guest in my home. It is a deeply personal decision though, there are so many variables to consider.

I don't know if foreigners (PRs included) have exactly worn out their welcome, but their purpose for being here has had to adapt to Singapore's different developmental stages. I guess that can amount to the same thing.

I can relate to this. Even though I was a PR for just 3 years before becoming a citizen, I had long thought about the fact even with a wife and daughter who are citizens, there's no permanency until you are a citizen. So the moment I met the minimum eligibility of having been a PR for 2 years, I wasted no time and applied for citizenship.

On a side note, the other day I went over to one of the banks at Raffles Place to open a new account. The lady assumed that had I just arrived here and asked me for my passport. Brought back memories of the time when I was actually FOB!

Yep, in your case, your decisiveness worked out in your favor. It's a great lesson for those with commitment issues on swift decision making.

[malcontent]

After living here almost 3 decades, it does feel like my kids should be citizens and my son should do NS (it would do him good). But giving up US citizenship is tough, unless you are so wealthy that the tax savings make it a no brainer. The US is not like India, Indonesia, Philippines, etc… where you can get back your citizenship after renouncing.

If my passport were not from a large, highly developed country, I would have converted at the earliest possible moment. But to convert, you really need to be content living in the urban jungle. You need to be content with the hot tropical weather year in and year out. You need to be content with the cost of living. Singapore is but one small city state, and there isn’t a whole lot nearby that you can get to without flying. Basically, Singapore really has to check your boxes. Now that I’m back to flying again post-Covid, being back in the US more frequently — it brings those limitations into focus. Pros/cons for sure, but not something to be taken lightly IMO.

[Lisafuller]

We're definitely in the same boat, I'm almost certain that if I was from a less developed country, I would have became a citizen, or at least tried to, long ago. It's a very privileged problem to have, but it really is hard, choosing between both citizenships, each with their own merit.

[emergency234]

I just cant help but come back to your post and think how wrong you are about India.
SGDINR just hit 61.4, I saved about 80K SGD with my normal salary of 145k gross all-in salary, this year, with a family of 3.

80k SGD converts to 4.9Million INR and you could buy a nice house in a city like Bangalore for twice that amount fully paid, no loan.

So just 2 years of my savings is enough to buy a nice house in India. You are single and your salary is 180k.

It is very clear, you have some very idiosyncratic problem with India, maybe you belong to a minority community(Muslim?) I can understand why you would feel about India that way and dont want to even go there and your affinity towards Malaysia. Or may be other family problems which is why you dont even want to go and meet your family. But this is very specific problem to you and it is not a problem with India.

I'm impressed by your saving capabilities

Aren't you renting ? Doesn't your child go to school ? What do you guys eat ?

So many questions!!

I earned about the same ( till this year ) - supporting a wife , young child and 3 pets and I'm nowhere near this saving amount. My landlord eats about 4.1k/month

[Wd40]

I just cant help but come back to your post and think how wrong you are about India.
SGDINR just hit 61.4, I saved about 80K SGD with my normal salary of 145k gross all-in salary, this year, with a family of 3.

80k SGD converts to 4.9Million INR and you could buy a nice house in a city like Bangalore for twice that amount fully paid, no loan.

So just 2 years of my savings is enough to buy a nice house in India. You are single and your salary is 180k.

It is very clear, you have some very idiosyncratic problem with India, maybe you belong to a minority community(Muslim?) I can understand why you would feel about India that way and dont want to even go there and your affinity towards Malaysia. Or may be other family problems which is why you dont even want to go and meet your family. But this is very specific problem to you and it is not a problem with India.

I'm impressed by your saving capabilities

Aren't you renting ? Doesn't your child go to school ? What do you guys eat ?

So many questions!!

I earned about the same ( till this year ) - supporting a wife , young child and 3 pets and I'm nowhere near this saving amount. My landlord eats about 4.1k/month

Well, here is the breakup for 2022. My rent was only 2300, from next month it is jumping to 3500. So last year was like my best year in terms of expenses. If you take out rent, school fees and income tax(I treat tax as expense) then my annual other expenses is like $15,200. This includes utilities, internet, groceries, eating out(we dont eat out a lot, wife is stay at home and cooks for us). Wife is also very low maintenance, we travel by B.M.W all the time, can't even remember when was the last time we took taxi. We dont skimp on food and other essentials. But there isnt a lot of discretionary or fun spending.




This year so far, though, I see that my other expenses have gone up, already in 8 months, I have hit 13k, so I am tracking about 20k in other expenses, for the year in addition to increase in rent. School fees also have gone up a bit and I have starting giving my wife an allowance of $300 per month. Until last year, I used to just tell her to spend whatever she needs. But she wouldnt spend. Then from late last year we decided I give her an allowance of $300, transfer to her account and then I dont count that amount any more in my networth and instead treat it as an expense, it is for her to spend as she wishes without asking me. But even then she doesnt spend it, lol. It has just accumulated in her account. I and my wife normally dont have any differences amongst us, she doesnt waste money and she is quite frugal like me, but we noticed some circumstances, like gifting to her family during our India trip last year, where I felt she couldnt gift freely to her relatives, because she thinks it is not her money, it is my money. So I told her, now this is your money, you can do whatever you want, you can gift it to your relatives freely, dont even ask me or tell me, I dont want to know. It is a tricky situation to be a non working spouse. I just feel for her. If I were her, I would rather work and have my own money to spend guilt free. But she doesnt like to take any bullshit from employers and hence she quit a well paying job and prefers to stay at home and be on her own terms.

[emergency234]

^ I really need to start making excel sheets!!

But you do seem to live extremely frugal lives.

[malcontent]

^ I really need to start making excel sheets!!

But you do seem to live extremely frugal lives.

For at least the last 5 years, practically all of my financial affairs are now managed in the Google Sheets app on my phone. I can’t recommend it enough.

I use formulas to break out my mortgage payments into principle and interest payments (I only treat the interest as an expense). I can run what-if scenarios on how interest rate changes could impact my payments. All investments (except my home) get marked to market automatically using the =GOOGLEFINANCE formula. At the end of each year, I copy the current sheet to a new year and switch the formulas to values in the old sheet, so I have a static historical record. If you want to get fancy, you can use =SPARKLINE formulas to put graphs into cells to see trends, but it has no practical use for a buy and hold investor like me — what is useful is tracking my allocation, which I do need to manage.