Is it even worth living in SG anymore as a foreigner?

[x9200]

Basically the same thing I wanted to tell him. If he's unable to convert his hatred for his own country into a chance to move out permanently, then it's probably better he gets used to the fact that he is going back - then there will be 2 options ; be bitter or learn to be comfortable with his situation.

I just read your post in reply to him and you are bang on! I feel he is seriously dilusional and lives in his own make believe world rather than accepting reality. He says he came here 10 years ago. Even 10 years ago, it is impossible for him to get PR, so it is nothing new. I was rejected 1st in 2012 and I knew right then that my future here is only as long as I have my job. So, I dont know on what basis he could just keep applying for PR here hoping that he will get it one day just like a lottery ticket.

I know so many Indians who are so realistic, they came and stayed 2 years, applied PR and got rejected and they made alternate plans and they are gone from here already. I know so many Indians who got PRs here who also didnt like it here, quit and went back to either India, giving up their PR or went on to other countries. There are very very few people who got PR here after getting rejected multiple times, but in their case, there were very strong points like male child or local ties etc.

A single Indian 43 year old guy applying PR here, I think applying toto is a better use of that application money.

I think he is just on the opposite pole than you. You have made being frugal, your life governing religion, having as a consequence probably rather modest life style experience. TT1 sounds more like somebody who would like to live his life more fully now, not when he retires, and perhaps his earnings may not be enough for the life style he hopes for? And judging from some numbers he posted he might have fallen into middle age middle career, average position trap, meaning he lost his main competitive edge of being young. In such situation you are pretty much stuck and have probably the only option to move back to your country where your current position / work experience does not guaranty any decent salary => no possibility to maintain the life style. Or to continue with your current position... Perhaps applying PR each year is hopeless but not applying pretty much guaranties no PR.

[Wd40]

Basically the same thing I wanted to tell him. If he's unable to convert his hatred for his own country into a chance to move out permanently, then it's probably better he gets used to the fact that he is going back - then there will be 2 options ; be bitter or learn to be comfortable with his situation.

I just read your post in reply to him and you are bang on! I feel he is seriously dilusional and lives in his own make believe world rather than accepting reality. He says he came here 10 years ago. Even 10 years ago, it is impossible for him to get PR, so it is nothing new. I was rejected 1st in 2012 and I knew right then that my future here is only as long as I have my job. So, I dont know on what basis he could just keep applying for PR here hoping that he will get it one day just like a lottery ticket.

I know so many Indians who are so realistic, they came and stayed 2 years, applied PR and got rejected and they made alternate plans and they are gone from here already. I know so many Indians who got PRs here who also didnt like it here, quit and went back to either India, giving up their PR or went on to other countries. There are very very few people who got PR here after getting rejected multiple times, but in their case, there were very strong points like male child or local ties etc.

A single Indian 43 year old guy applying PR here, I think applying toto is a better use of that application money.

I think he is just on the opposite pole than you. You have made being frugal, your life governing religion, having as a consequence probably rather modest life style experience. TT1 sounds more like somebody who would like to live his life more fully now, not when he retires, and perhaps his earnings may not be enough for the life style he hopes for? And judging from some numbers he posted he might have fallen into middle age middle career, average position trap, meaning he lost his main competitive edge of being young. In such situation you are pretty much stuck and have probably the only option to move back to your country where your current position / work experience does not guaranty any decent salary => no possibility to maintain the life style. Or to continue with your current position... Perhaps applying PR each year is hopeless but not applying pretty much guaranties no PR.

Well summarised. I am not against spending lavishly or living in the now. Everyone makes their own choices for their life. My only point is we should know the "cost" of the choices we make and take ownership of it. But TT1 made this choice and now he says India is expensive and India is bad and he is not being given PR here because he is an Indian. I am like come on man! You have to play with the cards you have been dealt with. It is because of India, end of the day he even made it to Singapore and got a job of 180k salary, with an Indian education. How many local Singaporeans can make that much salary with world's top class education system? So he was born in India, he cannot change that. He should just accept that and make the most of what he has.

BTW, just want to add, in my case this my way of life, it is not like I am going to live my life after I retire . I know frugal people and people who suggest delayed gratification give an impression that they are postponing their idea of having fun or pleasure. That is not the case, it just that our idea of pleasure or fun is lower maintenance:) Just having a beer on a weekend in a food court gives us happiness. I have beer now like 2 or 3 times a week. I have started eating fish these days, if you noticed the other thread, so we do have fun

[x9200]

Personally I don't get this anti-India sentiment but I I know experience may vary and not everybody has reasons to be nostalgic/homesick (what always helps). One thing is for sure: this is probably last call for TT1 to wake up and start to manage his life planning both financially and professionally. Crossing 50, unless he is, by his position, experience and education in high demand, would be very difficult to migrate to a new country and maintain the same life style. India or not India.

[x9200]

BTW, just want to add, in my case this my way of life, it is not like I am going to live my life after I retire . I know frugal people and people who suggest delayed gratification give an impression that they are postponing their idea of having fun or pleasure. That is not the case, it just that our idea of pleasure or fun is lower maintenance:) Just having a beer on a weekend in a food court gives us happiness. I have beer now like 2 or 3 times a week. I have started eating fish these days, if you noticed the other thread, so we do have fun

I am not criticizing your life style In fact, I think it is sort of bless to be happy with less (it even rhymes). Nothing wrong in it. But there is also some age components... youth lives by its dreams, elderly by memories. One may sometimes realize simply too late. But it is also true, what you don't know does not hurt you. Still, what if you realized it (something different what you would like to do) at some older age? One invites you to a champagne brunch or shows you beautiful images from an expensive, paradise trip (say water bungalows, Maldives) and you get the bug Complicated. But I think with your focus on savings you are sort of well conditioned and safe to repeal any thoughts on more expensive kinds of pleasure.
Please don't get me wrong, I really don't want to say, your way is any worse than mine, and I sort of envy you, but I have some troubles to convince myself that less (in terms of quality of experience) is always better than more.

BTW, I think we had this discussion before.

[Wd40]

BTW, just want to add, in my case this my way of life, it is not like I am going to live my life after I retire . I know frugal people and people who suggest delayed gratification give an impression that they are postponing their idea of having fun or pleasure. That is not the case, it just that our idea of pleasure or fun is lower maintenance:) Just having a beer on a weekend in a food court gives us happiness. I have beer now like 2 or 3 times a week. I have started eating fish these days, if you noticed the other thread, so we do have fun

I am not criticizing your life style In fact, I think it is sort of bless to be happy with less (it even rhymes). Nothing wrong in it. But there is also some age components... youth lives by its dreams, elderly by memories. One may sometimes realize simply too late. But it is also true, what you don't know does not hurt you. Still, what if you realized it (something different what you would like to do) at some older age? One invites you to a champagne brunch or shows you beautiful images from an expensive, paradise trip (say water bungalows, Maldives) and you get the bug Complicated. But I think with your focus on savings you are sort of well conditioned and safe to repeal any thoughts on more expensive kinds of pleasure.
Please don't get me wrong, I really don't want to say, your way is any worse than mine, and I sort of envy you, but I have some troubles to convince myself that less (in terms of quality of experience) is always better than more.

BTW, I think we had this discussion before.

I am fully in agreement with you. In fact why go to luxury items/experiences like champagne or Maldives, there are much more impactful compromises we make in our daily lives, which makes me somewhat guilty. For example, the Indian intl school my daughter goes to is pretty average. The teachers are not career teachers, they are trailing spouses on LoC. The facilities are zero. In India, we have much better schools with better teachers and facilities for a fraction of the cost. My daughter loves pets, like dogs and cats, but living in Singapore it is so expensive to have a pet, (I mean it costs more to feed a dog than to feed a human, lol) that we decide not to. In India, we have a landed house, we could easily have a dog, cat a garden everything. So these are real compromises we make.

Maybe we will become old and have like a million dollars in the bank and then dont know what to do with it and maybe my daughter would also not want it and wished she had better experiences as a child than getting that money as inheritance.

But this is the decision I make right now weighing the pros and cons. After all I feel kids will be with us for like 18 years and after that they have the rest of their lives to do whatever they want. We choose to bring them into this world and the 1st 18 years, we just take the responsibility of the kids and then they can blame us if they want for not the best parenting. But I feel there is no point, it is better that they look forward to their future and make the most of it.

[x9200]

Good points WD40. Kids provide even stronger concerns and actually I believe for most of us it often the question what is more optimal, bring up the kids in Singapore in safe and wealthy environment or somewhere else with perhaps better education quality and often in contact with more extended family and friends. These are not the questions with simple answers.

Perhaps at last people would be allowed to keep cats in HDB At least media were busy with this subject end of October last year but I don't see any follow up. I have 2 cats (local, born to stray cats) also for the reason I think it is good for my son and having them costs me ca SGD50-100/month per cat for regular "maintenance", so pretty affordable. But I know people who serve their pets food I would normally not buy even for myself. I mean like organic, grass-fed beef or something

[the observer]

This kept popping up in my social media.

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-econ ... ility-home

And yet another article. Every month or so, we seem to get a reminder…

Google for this article. Came out yesterday.

“ The lure of Singapore: Chinese flock to ‘Asia’s Switzerland’ “ by FT

[Lisafuller]

Good points WD40. Kids provide even stronger concerns and actually I believe for most of us it often the question what is more optimal, bring up the kids in Singapore in safe and wealthy environment or somewhere else with perhaps better education quality and often in contact with more extended family and friends. These are not the questions with simple answers.

Perhaps at last people would be allowed to keep cats in HDB At least media were busy with this subject end of October last year but I don't see any follow up. I have 2 cats (local, born to stray cats) also for the reason I think it is good for my son and having them costs me ca SGD50-100/month per cat for regular "maintenance", so pretty affordable. But I know people who serve their pets food I would normally not buy even for myself. I mean like organic, grass-fed beef or something

LOL! For those people, their pets are their kids.

[Lisafuller]

I just read your post in reply to him and you are bang on! I feel he is seriously dilusional and lives in his own make believe world rather than accepting reality. He says he came here 10 years ago. Even 10 years ago, it is impossible for him to get PR, so it is nothing new. I was rejected 1st in 2012 and I knew right then that my future here is only as long as I have my job. So, I dont know on what basis he could just keep applying for PR here hoping that he will get it one day just like a lottery ticket.

I know so many Indians who are so realistic, they came and stayed 2 years, applied PR and got rejected and they made alternate plans and they are gone from here already. I know so many Indians who got PRs here who also didnt like it here, quit and went back to either India, giving up their PR or went on to other countries. There are very very few people who got PR here after getting rejected multiple times, but in their case, there were very strong points like male child or local ties etc.

A single Indian 43 year old guy applying PR here, I think applying toto is a better use of that application money.

I think he is just on the opposite pole than you. You have made being frugal, your life governing religion, having as a consequence probably rather modest life style experience. TT1 sounds more like somebody who would like to live his life more fully now, not when he retires, and perhaps his earnings may not be enough for the life style he hopes for? And judging from some numbers he posted he might have fallen into middle age middle career, average position trap, meaning he lost his main competitive edge of being young. In such situation you are pretty much stuck and have probably the only option to move back to your country where your current position / work experience does not guaranty any decent salary => no possibility to maintain the life style. Or to continue with your current position... Perhaps applying PR each year is hopeless but not applying pretty much guaranties no PR.

Well summarised. I am not against spending lavishly or living in the now. Everyone makes their own choices for their life. My only point is we should know the "cost" of the choices we make and take ownership of it. But TT1 made this choice and now he says India is expensive and India is bad and he is not being given PR here because he is an Indian. I am like come on man! You have to play with the cards you have been dealt with. It is because of India, end of the day he even made it to Singapore and got a job of 180k salary, with an Indian education. How many local Singaporeans can make that much salary with world's top class education system? So he was born in India, he cannot change that. He should just accept that and make the most of what he has.

BTW, just want to add, in my case this my way of life, it is not like I am going to live my life after I retire . I know frugal people and people who suggest delayed gratification give an impression that they are postponing their idea of having fun or pleasure. That is not the case, it just that our idea of pleasure or fun is lower maintenance:) Just having a beer on a weekend in a food court gives us happiness. I have beer now like 2 or 3 times a week. I have started eating fish these days, if you noticed the other thread, so we do have fun

Totally get it. Fun is subjective. I read recently that scientists are now saying that to keep your risk of heart disease low you should limit yourself to two drinks a week so that's something to keep in mind. Perhaps the fish helps to cancel some of it out. haha.

[Lisafuller]

BTW, just want to add, in my case this my way of life, it is not like I am going to live my life after I retire . I know frugal people and people who suggest delayed gratification give an impression that they are postponing their idea of having fun or pleasure. That is not the case, it just that our idea of pleasure or fun is lower maintenance:) Just having a beer on a weekend in a food court gives us happiness. I have beer now like 2 or 3 times a week. I have started eating fish these days, if you noticed the other thread, so we do have fun

I am not criticizing your life style In fact, I think it is sort of bless to be happy with less (it even rhymes). Nothing wrong in it. But there is also some age components... youth lives by its dreams, elderly by memories. One may sometimes realize simply too late. But it is also true, what you don't know does not hurt you. Still, what if you realized it (something different what you would like to do) at some older age? One invites you to a champagne brunch or shows you beautiful images from an expensive, paradise trip (say water bungalows, Maldives) and you get the bug Complicated. But I think with your focus on savings you are sort of well conditioned and safe to repeal any thoughts on more expensive kinds of pleasure.
Please don't get me wrong, I really don't want to say, your way is any worse than mine, and I sort of envy you, but I have some troubles to convince myself that less (in terms of quality of experience) is always better than more.

BTW, I think we had this discussion before.

I am fully in agreement with you. In fact why go to luxury items/experiences like champagne or Maldives, there are much more impactful compromises we make in our daily lives, which makes me somewhat guilty. For example, the Indian intl school my daughter goes to is pretty average. The teachers are not career teachers, they are trailing spouses on LoC. The facilities are zero. In India, we have much better schools with better teachers and facilities for a fraction of the cost. My daughter loves pets, like dogs and cats, but living in Singapore it is so expensive to have a pet, (I mean it costs more to feed a dog than to feed a human, lol) that we decide not to. In India, we have a landed house, we could easily have a dog, cat a garden everything. So these are real compromises we make.

Maybe we will become old and have like a million dollars in the bank and then dont know what to do with it and maybe my daughter would also not want it and wished she had better experiences as a child than getting that money as inheritance.

But this is the decision I make right now weighing the pros and cons. After all I feel kids will be with us for like 18 years and after that they have the rest of their lives to do whatever they want. We choose to bring them into this world and the 1st 18 years, we just take the responsibility of the kids and then they can blame us if they want for not the best parenting. But I feel there is no point, it is better that they look forward to their future and make the most of it.

Well put. I feel the same with my daughter, in Florida we could have a landed house for much less than our condo costs now. She could have gone to school in a much more relaxing environment, and have had the time to play with all her friends at each other's houses every day after class. She would even have had a car of her own three years ago (out of the question here for obvious reasons). Instead, we live here, where we have to live smaller and less lavishly. She grew up in an environment where she had to endure much more stress than she would have had to experience elsewhere. Do I regret it though? Not really. I wanted her to grow up somewhere safe, where she could learn independence and be educated in a top-notch system. Perhaps she feels differently, but this was the best me and my husband could do all things considered. What's best in theory is very different from practice.

[Lisafuller]

Personally I don't get this anti-India sentiment but I I know experience may vary and not everybody has reasons to be nostalgic/homesick (what always helps). One thing is for sure: this is probably last call for TT1 to wake up and start to manage his life planning both financially and professionally. Crossing 50, unless he is, by his position, experience and education in high demand, would be very difficult to migrate to a new country and maintain the same life style. India or not India.

Agree. I think TT1 is just upset with his situation, and it's coming across as resentment towards India. Either way, don't really get it and kind of uncalled for.

[malcontent]

Living in a landed house has its challenges too. I own a landed house in the US that I bought 15 years ago (bank foreclosure for $38k). Of course, the purchase price is hard to imagine compared to here. It was very economical for my brother to live in over the years - but now that he moved out, I have decided to sell it.

It was a very tough decision because the rental yield would have easily been double-digit percentage wise, even if using an expensive property agent. But the actual dollars are relatively small. The main reason for selling —

1. The neighborhood is not that great, it’s safe, but you have to put up with some occasional nuisance.

2. The house is old, and it’s not worth putting substantial money into it, especially considering what the neighborhood can support price-wise.

3. Living there requires vigilance about termite control, we’ve had infestations.

4. Tree roots have penetrated the old sewage pipes, and it’s not worth repairing - just have to call roto-rooter to clear it out every 10 years or so (and hope for the best).

5. There has always been a funky smell in the house that we could never figure out or eliminate.

6. There is potential liability as a landlord.

7. I would have done just as well had I put that $38k in the stock market 15 years ago, and it’s a lot less hassle.

Just finding a handyman these days is a major challenge. The house is old and needs a lot of TLC.

[Lisafuller]

Totally get it, at some point instead of being an investment the home becomes a liability. Good on you for cashing out.

[Wd40]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

[malcontent]

I recently heard the phrase "overstaying your welcome" and I kind of make the connection now that this phrase best describes the foreigners situation in Singapore. A lot of us came here during a different time/era/regime. It is not the same anymore.

There is no point in blaming the country, we have to just remember that we are guests here and we have probably overstayed our welcome.

How is that for a perspective?

I would say that is a self-inflicted state of mind. The longer you stay, the more you are a part of the Singapore story… no matter what ANYONE says, thinks or does to the contrary.

You might perceive that you are no longer welcome based on rejections or comments online. But the rejections are not personal, it’s more about supply vs. demand than anything particular to you. The comments online are from the fringe of society (every country has) and don’t represent the mainstream.

That said, if such thinking prompts one to look for greener pastures, it might be to their benefit, even if it’s not true… better than waiting in vain for an approval that never comes. We all know is a land of scarcity, which means the prospect of losing out is a constant.