How to prevent PR abuse

[smoulder]

When we were waiting for our new HDB flat to be built, we rented a 3room on the open market. Our landlord was from our neighbouring country up north, and he'd been gone a long time and we never saw him, we only dealt with an agent. Nothing against the guy as it wasn't illegal and he was an ok landlord, but it was rather ironic that a (at that time) young local couple rented public housing from a foreign based PR.

Ironic yes. You may or may not know this, but there is a high chance that the longer he stays away, the lower the chances of the ICA renewing his REP.

[jalanjalan]

Ironic yes. You may or may not know this, but there is a high chance that the longer he stays away, the lower the chances of the ICA renewing his REP.

Yep. This was years ago so no idea what happened in that guy's case. Our rental was above board, no one-room-locked sneakiness, so presumably he was playing by the rules.

[NYY1]

If you see the news about PR statistics, you will find that they say integration is an important criteria. Yet I find it odd that the chance to integrate is not given to everyone. The best way to integrate is via the local school system for the 2nd generation. If they are given a chance to go to local school and they spend like 10 years through the local school system, that is a good indication of integration. Yet, I don't think they want that kind of integration. Instead, they just kind of go by who is more likely to integrate and who is not based on certain factors or criteria. I just wish this was more transparent. They could make it more strict and rule based, like 10 years in local school. Also I don't see any point in focusing on 1st gen expats. It is the 2nd gen expats whom they should focus and try to groom them to become future citizens.

Not sure what age your child is but try for the local school system again (via AEIS)? There is a defined pathway to apply for PR (for the student) once he/she passes a national exam (PSLE, O Level, A Level) if that is what you would like for your child.

In contrast to what you read around here, I don't think the proportion of spots available to IS (International Students) has declined (much) over the years. Back a decade+ ago when absolute priority was given to SCs for P1 registration, the percentage of PRs was ~10% and IS was ~4%. In subsequent years IS have been quoted at around 5% and less than 5%. One can also plot the number of citizen births in any year and see how that corresponds to the Primary 1 cohort size in 7 years or the Primary 6 cohort size in 12 years (there is some movement between IS-->PR-->SC so things don't tie out exactly).

Does that mean everyone who wants a spot can get one (either via P1 Phase 3 or AEIS)? Unfortunately the answer there is no. But there are ways to try if local schooling, integration, and long-term residency here (either PR or SC) is what one wants for their child.

[MOCHS]

As a local married to a foreigner, I do not agree with “reducing benefits for those with PR”. Already, my foreigner husband was never guaranteed a PR upon marriage in the first place, it’s even outright stated in the ROM oath.

We had to face a lot of uncertainties on whether he can stay here long term, whether his LTVP will be renewed, whether he will get PR, and you want to make the lives of trans-national couples even tougher? SG needs people and doing this will drive away its own citizens married to foreigners, and in turn, this means replacing the brain drain by taking in mediocre PRs (not saying all PRs are like that).

When my husband was on LTVP and I bought my HDB, the first timer HDB grants given to SC-SC or SC-PR couple is 50K but since I’m a SC-NR (NR being non-resident) couple, the grant given to me was 25K only, same as a single person even though I have formed a nucleus family. The rationale is that only SCs/PRs can own HDBs, so I guess that’s why they “halved” the grant.

I was already super peeved that my grant was halved and reducing any “benefits” will just make trans-national couples relocate elsewhere. I did not deliberately choose to fall in love with a foreigner and being “punished” for that is plain stupid.

Numerous blue-collar middle aged SC men marry foreign brides and while their wives tend to get PR upon birthing SC children, implementing some sort “maintain your PR scoring system” will burden them too. I am already financially privileged but the lower income will be the most affected.

Quite sure a lot of SCs who get PRs overseas don’t intend to convert either, I know my SC friend with Canadian PR won’t convert as she’s frustrated with the Canadian system sometimes.

There is no right answer to this… Do we maintain the status quo?

[Wd40]

Not sure what age your child is but try for the local school system again (via AEIS)? There is a defined pathway to apply for PR (for the student) once he/she passes a national exam (PSLE, O Level, A Level) if that is what you would like for your child.

In contrast to what you read around here, I don't think the proportion of spots available to IS (International Students) has declined (much) over the years. Back a decade+ ago when absolute priority was given to SCs for P1 registration, the percentage of PRs was ~10% and IS was ~4%. In subsequent years IS have been quoted at around 5% and less than 5%. One can also plot the number of citizen births in any year and see how that corresponds to the Primary 1 cohort size in 7 years or the Primary 6 cohort size in 12 years (there is some movement between IS-->PR-->SC so things don't tie out exactly).

Does that mean everyone who wants a spot can get one (either via P1 Phase 3 or AEIS)? Unfortunately the answer there is no. But there are ways to try if local schooling, integration, and long-term residency here (either PR or SC) is what one wants for their child.

AEIS is extremely difficult. I did some research and the chances of getting through are very very slim. I don't want to put that kind of pressure on my daughter. I mean we like to get PR here but not at the cost of sending our daughter for additional tuition and making a competition for her at this young age. Also it is like not even an assured path to PR. It is just like volunteering, eventually people might think we are abusing that also and making our kids as scape goats. No thanks. Schooling should be a right, not a competition.

Maybe it is a blessing in disguise, she goes to a relaxed CBSE school(Indian syllabus) no PSLE pressure nothing. I mean after all that pressure, what do the kids get? Only the cream of the cream get into one of the 3 prestigious universities. While rest have to go abroad for a degree.

I am sorry, I just feel sorry for the kids who have to go through this. The real cost of this whole Singapore dream is the kids that are paying, not us.

[NYY1]

Not sure what age your child is but try for the local school system again (via AEIS)? There is a defined pathway to apply for PR (for the student) once he/she passes a national exam (PSLE, O Level, A Level) if that is what you would like for your child.

In contrast to what you read around here, I don't think the proportion of spots available to IS (International Students) has declined (much) over the years. Back a decade+ ago when absolute priority was given to SCs for P1 registration, the percentage of PRs was ~10% and IS was ~4%. In subsequent years IS have been quoted at around 5% and less than 5%. One can also plot the number of citizen births in any year and see how that corresponds to the Primary 1 cohort size in 7 years or the Primary 6 cohort size in 12 years (there is some movement between IS-->PR-->SC so things don't tie out exactly).

Does that mean everyone who wants a spot can get one (either via P1 Phase 3 or AEIS)? Unfortunately the answer there is no. But there are ways to try if local schooling, integration, and long-term residency here (either PR or SC) is what one wants for their child.

AEIS is extremely difficult. I did some research and the chances of getting through are very very slim. I don't want to put that kind of pressure on my daughter. I mean we like to get PR here but not at the cost of sending our daughter for additional tuition and making a competition for her at this young age. Also it is like not even an assured path to PR. It is just like volunteering, eventually people might think we are abusing that also and making our kids as scape goats. No thanks.

Maybe it is a blessing in disguise, she goes to a relaxed CBSE school no PSLE pressure nothing. I mean after all that pressure, what do the kids get? Only the cream of the cream get into one of the 3 prestigious universities. While rest have to go abroad for a degree.

I am sorry, I just feel sorry for the kids who have to go through this. The real cost of this whole Singapore dream is the kids that are paying, not us.

Understand, I don't know if the parents would ever get PR (after student) but I think the chances for the students are reasonably high.

As for the local system, it's as stressful or stress-free as one makes it out to be. Most of the pressures originate from the parents and home, even if the parents don't think or know that they are adding pressure to the child. There are other options besides JC-Uni as well; many Poly courses have become attractive and have COPs that would qualify the student for most (but not all) JCs. The challenge of the JC-local uni route is that the A Level is already a highly sorted sub-cohort (1/4 of primary cohort). The number/proportion of highly able (at least academically) students is reflected in some of the incredibly high IGPs for certain NUS/etc courses.

Anyways, do what you think is best for your child. Just adding that it is a route if you are trying to get the child PR / here is "home" for him/her.

[smoulder]

Not sure what age your child is but try for the local school system again (via AEIS)? There is a defined pathway to apply for PR (for the student) once he/she passes a national exam (PSLE, O Level, A Level) if that is what you would like for your child.

In contrast to what you read around here, I don't think the proportion of spots available to IS (International Students) has declined (much) over the years. Back a decade+ ago when absolute priority was given to SCs for P1 registration, the percentage of PRs was ~10% and IS was ~4%. In subsequent years IS have been quoted at around 5% and less than 5%. One can also plot the number of citizen births in any year and see how that corresponds to the Primary 1 cohort size in 7 years or the Primary 6 cohort size in 12 years (there is some movement between IS-->PR-->SC so things don't tie out exactly).

Does that mean everyone who wants a spot can get one (either via P1 Phase 3 or AEIS)? Unfortunately the answer there is no. But there are ways to try if local schooling, integration, and long-term residency here (either PR or SC) is what one wants for their child.

AEIS is extremely difficult. I did some research and the chances of getting through are very very slim. I don't want to put that kind of pressure on my daughter. I mean we like to get PR here but not at the cost of sending our daughter for additional tuition and making a competition for her at this young age. Also it is like not even an assured path to PR. It is just like volunteering, eventually people might think we are abusing that also and making our kids as scape goats. No thanks. Schooling should be a right, not a competition.

Maybe it is a blessing in disguise, she goes to a relaxed CBSE school(Indian syllabus) no PSLE pressure nothing. I mean after all that pressure, what do the kids get? Only the cream of the cream get into one of the 3 prestigious universities. While rest have to go abroad for a degree.

I am sorry, I just feel sorry for the kids who have to go through this. The real cost of this whole Singapore dream is the kids that are paying, not us.

In a sense, adapting to the high pressures of the local school system is a necessary evil for the younger generation to settle down here, isn't it?

[Wd40]

In a sense, adapting to the high pressures of the local school system is a necessary evil for the younger generation to settle down here, isn't it?

Yes, I just hope Singapore solves this problem. There should be enough Tier 2 universities in Singapore which are of the similar ranking as those abroad. So it shouldnt be a choice between the top 3 universities or a Poly diploma or a degree abroad. Then remove the filtering at the PSLE level. Let everyone do JC and then the top kids go to the top 3 universities and the remaining go to the Tier 2 universities. This is how we do in India. Once everyone has a university degree, then it is your technical skills and your soft skills which will determine how you do in the job market.

[jalanjalan]

As a local married to a foreigner, I do not agree with “reducing benefits for those with PR”. Already, my foreigner husband was never guaranteed a PR upon marriage in the first place, it’s even outright stated in the ROM oath.

We had to face a lot of uncertainties on whether he can stay here long term, whether his LTVP will be renewed, whether he will get PR, and you want to make the lives of trans-national couples even tougher? SG needs people and doing this will drive away its own citizens married to foreigners, and in turn, this means replacing the brain drain by taking in mediocre PRs (not saying all PRs are like that).

When my husband was on LTVP and I bought my HDB, the first timer HDB grants given to SC-SC or SC-PR couple is 50K but since I’m a SC-NR (NR being non-resident) couple, the grant given to me was 25K only, same as a single person even though I have formed a nucleus family. The rationale is that only SCs/PRs can own HDBs, so I guess that’s why they “halved” the grant.

I was already super peeved that my grant was halved and reducing any “benefits” will just make trans-national couples relocate elsewhere. I did not deliberately choose to fall in love with a foreigner and being “punished” for that is plain stupid.

Numerous blue-collar middle aged SC men marry foreign brides and while their wives tend to get PR upon birthing SC children, implementing some sort “maintain your PR scoring system” will burden them too. I am already financially privileged but the lower income will be the most affected.

Quite sure a lot of SCs who get PRs overseas don’t intend to convert either, I know my SC friend with Canadian PR won’t convert as she’s frustrated with the Canadian system sometimes.

There is no right answer to this… Do we maintain the status quo?

It does seem rather harsh to me that PR (at least) is so difficult to get for foreigners married to SCs, some even with SC kids. Unless the person has some serious criminal record or it's clearly a marriage of convenience, I don't see why they shouldn't get PR if they want it. How much more committed can one get than literally joining the family?

[rajagainstthemachine]

@wd40 why did you opt for cbse for your kid instead of icse? (Equivalent of GCSE O ) level
Suprised you say cbse is relaxed, back in India everyone was complaining about how difficult it was
As for psle im not sure why local parents bend over backwards to ensure their kids can cram and regurgitate everything back onto the question paper

[NYY1]

In a sense, adapting to the high pressures of the local school system is a necessary evil for the younger generation to settle down here, isn't it?

Yes, I just hope Singapore solves this problem. There should be enough Tier 2 universities in Singapore which are of the similar ranking as those abroad. So it shouldnt be a choice between the top 3 universities or a Poly diploma or a degree abroad. Then remove the filtering at the PSLE level. Let everyone do JC and then the top kids go to the top 3 universities and the remaining go to the Tier 2 universities. This is how we do in India. Once everyone has a university degree, then it is your technical skills and your soft skills which will determine how you do in the job market.

The local universities (all six) admit about 40% of the cohort. The university participation rate in the US is about the same. Seems like there are the same amount of uni spots available? Regardless, not everyone wants to go to uni and for better or worse attending uni won't necessarily make everyone more productive or higher wage earning either (not just in Singapore but anywhere in the world).

Also, I'm not sure why people tend to think Poly is an inferior option to JC/Uni. For many kids, it allows them to do what they want and start earning a living more efficiently than spending more time studying things they may never use again.

Yes, it is agreed that once you start working prior educational qualifications only matter so much.

[Wd40]

@wd40 why did you opt for cbse for your kid instead of icse? (Equivalent of GCSE O ) level
Suprised you say cbse is relaxed, back in India everyone was complaining about how difficult it was
As for psle im not sure why local parents bend over backwards to ensure their kids can cram and regurgitate everything back onto the question paper

icse is more difficult than cbse. Moreover there is only 1 icse school DPS and I didnt hear good things about it.

[Wd40]

In a sense, adapting to the high pressures of the local school system is a necessary evil for the younger generation to settle down here, isn't it?

Yes, I just hope Singapore solves this problem. There should be enough Tier 2 universities in Singapore which are of the similar ranking as those abroad. So it shouldnt be a choice between the top 3 universities or a Poly diploma or a degree abroad. Then remove the filtering at the PSLE level. Let everyone do JC and then the top kids go to the top 3 universities and the remaining go to the Tier 2 universities. This is how we do in India. Once everyone has a university degree, then it is your technical skills and your soft skills which will determine how you do in the job market.

The local universities (all six) admit about 40% of the cohort. The university participation rate in the US is about the same. Seems like there are the same amount of uni spots available? Regardless, not everyone wants to go to uni and for better or worse attending uni won't necessarily make everyone more productive or higher wage earning either (not just in Singapore but anywhere in the world).

Also, I'm not sure why people tend to think Poly is an inferior option to JC/Uni. For many kids, it allows them to do what they want and start earning a living more efficiently than spending more time studying things they may never use again.

Yes, it is agreed that once you start working prior educational qualifications only matter so much.

US is a big country. Singapore is a highly urbanized city with high standard of education. So I think the comparison is not right.

Since you seem to know the stats, I am curious to know how many parents send their kids overseas for a degree? I understand many go to Australia for a degree. I know this because when some Singaporean recruiters call me and I scroll through their linked In page, usually I see a business degree in Australia.

As a parent, if I have the means, I would send my child overseas for a degree, if they cannot get into one of the universities in Singapore. I know some Indian PRs and Indian EP holders who send their kids to India or other foreigner country for high education, because getting into the SG universities is difficult.

[NYY1]

US is a big country. Singapore is a highly urbanized city with high standard of education. So I think the comparison is not right.

Since you seem to know the stats, I am curious to know how many parents send their kids overseas for a degree? I understand many go to Australia for a degree. I know this because when some Singaporean recruiters call me and I scroll through their linked In page, usually I see a business degree in Australia.

As a parent, if I have the means, I would send my child overseas for a degree, if they cannot get into one of the universities in Singapore. I know some Indian PRs and Indian EP holders who send their kids to India or other foreigner country for high education, because getting into the SG universities is difficult.

OK, possible on the first point. I do know one mistake made around the world is the belief that you can educate everyone and have them become as productive as studies done years ago on a much smaller cohort suggested. Some how, the economists forgot the law of diminishing marginal returns.

Anyways, unfortunately I am unable to answer your question about overseas degrees. I think there are different reasons why people go. First is just prestige (especially higher ranking US or UK schools). Second is one cannot get into the desired course locally. Third is that it is just a different experience for the student/child (if the family can afford it).

That being said, I don't think people should be under the impression that everyone in the US gets into the university/course they want either. But if there is a difference it is that the US economy allows for more paths once you have a degree (any degree). At the same time, the pressures of degree standing/ranking have increased there too over the years as more and more people pursued higher education.