How to prevent PR abuse

[Wd40]

Malcontent created a brilliant thread asking how PR abuse happens.
viewtopic.php?t=149161

Many people contributed in it. I just think there is a better solution than the current situation, where there is distrust from both sides. One side thinks "This guy wants to abuse PR" the other side thinks "These people just want to use us like toilet paper"

Lets look at why do people apply for PR in Singapore. Especially those who dont have any plans to retire here. I think these reasons could then be used as features and added on to the work pass. So you have less of people trying to "abuse PR" and at the same time the gahmen gets applications from people who truely want to settle here. Kind of win-win.

So the few reasons why people try to apply for PR.
I will use the problem solution approach here
Prob 1) What if I lose my job here, I will have to pack up and leave in 30 days.
Soln) Why not let people stay for like 90 or 180 days after their work pass expires? Make this number proportional to the total duration the foreigner has spent in Singapore. I mean you have a foreigner who spends here like 10 years on employment pass you can give this person a 6 months visa to wrap things up? It is not like this guy is going to do some illegal activity here. He is just going to look for a job and then you evaluate based on merit if he deserves it. Most people need only 6 months to find a new job, if they dont find, their savings will run dry and they will leave. I for one, didnt even want to stay here even 1 single day unemployed when I lost my job. I had my tickets booked for the last day all set, I was just very lucky to find another job, just 1 day before. I wouldnt have waited here and I know most people would do the same.

Prob 2) I want to go back and retire in my home country, but my daughter was born here and spent all her life here. I want PR for her sake, she wont be able to settledown in India.
Soln) I think this is a genuine reason why many people apply for PR, it is not for them it is for their kids. I mean allow this option for the kids to apply for PR only for themselves and leave the parents out. This is a bit like America and Canada, where kids born there get automatic citizenship. SG could consider giving PR to such kids. These kids are either born here or spent considerable time here. They are most likely going to continue to stay here and they are kids of well educated parents and well educated themselves. They will become assets for Singapore.

I cant really think of any other reason someone will apply for PR and yet not want to stay here forever. In the past housing and schooling was a big draw to apply for PR, but now houses cost a lot and PRs pay more for schooling as well. I would suggest reduce the benefits of PR even more. Make it equal to foreigners and then give the benefits only to people who commit to become citizens.

[simple_guy]

Interesting, looks like a project/case study!!!

[malcontent]

Malcontent created a brilliant thread asking how PR abuse happens.
viewtopic.php?t=149161

Many people contributed in it. I just think there is a better solution than the current situation, where there is distrust from both sides. One side thinks "This guy wants to abuse PR" the other side thinks "These people just want to use us like toilet paper"

Lets look at why do people apply for PR in Singapore. Especially those who dont have any plans to retire here. I think these reasons could then be used as features and added on to the work pass. So you have less of people trying to "abuse PR" and at the same time the gahmen gets applications from people who truely want to settle here. Kind of win-win.

So the few reasons why people try to apply for PR.
I will use the problem solution approach here
Prob 1) What if I lose my job here, I will have to pack up and leave in 30 days.
Soln) Why not let people stay for like 90 or 180 days after their work pass expires? Make this number proportional to the total duration the foreigner has spent in Singapore. I mean you have a foreigner who spends here like 10 years on employment pass you can give this person a 6 months visa to wrap things up? It is not like this guy is going to do some illegal activity here. He is just going to look for a job and then you evaluate based on merit if he deserves it. Most people need only 6 months to find a new job, if they dont find, their savings will run dry and they will leave. I for one, didnt even want to stay here even 1 single day unemployed when I lost my job. I had my tickets booked for the last day all set, I was just very lucky to find another job, just 1 day before. I wouldnt have waited here and I know most people would do the same.

Prob 2) I want to go back and retire in my home country, but my daughter was born here and spent all her life here. I want PR for her sake, she wont be able to settledown in India.
Soln) I think this is a genuine reason why many people apply for PR, it is not for them it is for their kids. I mean allow this option for the kids to apply for PR only for themselves and leave the parents out. This is a bit like America and Canada, where kids born there get automatic citizenship. SG could consider giving PR to such kids. These kids are either born here or spent considerable time here. They are most likely going to continue to stay here and they are kids of well educated parents and well educated themselves. They will become assets for Singapore.

I cant really think of any other reason someone will apply for PR and yet not want to stay here forever. In the past housing and schooling was a big draw to apply for PR, but now houses cost a lot and PRs pay more for schooling as well. I would suggest reduce the benefits of PR even more. Make it equal to foreigners and then give the benefits only to people who commit to become citizens.

Interesting thoughts WD40. Your proposed solutions are perfectly logical and make complete sense from the EP holders viewpoint, but how about from the other side of the fence?

I think the EP pool here is first and foremost viewed as expendable and replaceable — a “tolerated” commodity to serve a specific, finite purpose… with no strings… and no expectation to sink roots, integrate or give back to society.

And, unlike other countries that offer almost incontrovertible path to immigrate based on time spent in country, here it is very different. At any given time the best PR applicants that fit the desired PR pool criteria will be cherry picked.

The downside to this system, you will invariably lose a lot of ripe and attractive cherries because people can’t count on the system giving them a desired outcome in exchange for the time sacrificed — this is especially so with the best cherries that other countries are happy to welcome in. That often leaves the smaller and sour cherries in the hopper, risking more mediocracy than meritocracy. But this is a calculated risk — those that are too ripe and tasty are probably more likely to give up PR and move to greener pastures in the end anyway, so you’ve got to strike a balance.

[NYY1]

...
The downside to this system, you will invariably lose a lot of ripe and attractive cherries because people can’t count on the system giving them a desired outcome in exchange for the time sacrificed — this is especially so with the best cherries that other countries are happy to welcome in. That often leaves the smaller and sour cherries in the hopper, risking more mediocracy than meritocracy. But this is a calculated risk — those that are too ripe and tasty are probably more likely to give up PR and move to greener pastures in the end anyway, so you’ve got to strike a balance.

Fair assessment of the situation.

On one hand, I do believe the well paying and attractive opportunities for locals have increased in the past couple of decades (or even the last decade as foreign employment has tightened). In the global ranks it is hard to say Singapore is sliding towards mediocracy (note, I have also previously listed my ranking of global cities/immigration options and there are places I put ahead of Singapore)?

At the same time, while the country hopes to offer more opportunities and retain home grown talent, it may also be true that if you are one of the top few students at RJC, HCJC, NUSH, ACS(I), etc (add any IP JC for that matter) or you are best in your field (technology, medical, or whatever) then there are most likely other places that can offer you more as it relates to university schooling/career opportunities. Whether one decides to come back home after 10-20 years is probably a combination of precisely how one did in their field and some intangibles like family, culture, etc.

The United States is special in this regard; year after year they attract the world's best students and workers. It is why they have the most technologically advanced and innovate economy on the planet (and other things that go along with this). Other places are no doubt fighting for talent, but the best and brightest should try to make it to the US (at least initially). On economic terms, immigration has its advantages. However, there are also social and political issues that need to be considered, and it is possible that these issues are of more importance (at least relatively speaking) to any country that is not the United States.

[Wd40]

Most of my recently arrived colleagues, like in the past 5 years havent applied for PR, they all know it is close to impossible to get, so they didnt even try. While people like me who came here like 10 years ago, heard lots of stories about how people used to get PR, so I think it is only our cohort who still keep applying like crazy.

The intention of this thread is to just identify why do people apply for PR. Whether it consitutes abuse and if yes, then how to find a middle ground where there is no need for people to abuse.

Singapore is a very pragmatic country. If you notice most of the things here are arranged such that you dont have to go around the system. The system works for you. To give you an example, near my office, there was a road with no pedestrian crossing and the nearest pedestrian crossing was further away. People used to regularly jay walk and cross the road. But recently a pedestrian crossing has appeared. So the moral of the story here is if lots of people are jay walking only at a particular place, that means, it is not a people problem, it is something else. In this case, the inconvenience of pedestrian crossing being far away.

That is the beauty of Singapore. People go around the system, only if it becomes difficult to go with the system. In Singapore, they make sure that following the rules is the easiest and best option and so you dont think about breaking the law or do unethical things.

But this PR application thingy is the only thing where I found that there are ways to make it more pragmatic and fix the reason why people are "jay walking" without really giving up much ground. In the process make it a pleasant experience for everyone involved.

[malcontent]

Most of my recently arrived colleagues, like in the past 5 years havent applied for PR, they all know it is close to impossible to get, so they didnt even try. While people like me who came here like 10 years ago, heard lots of stories about how people used to get PR, so I think it is only our cohort who still keep applying like crazy.

The intention of this thread is to just identify why do people apply for PR. Whether it consitutes abuse and if yes, then how to find a middle ground where there is no need for people to abuse.

Singapore is a very pragmatic country. If you notice most of the things here are arranged such that you dont have to go around the system. The system works for you. To give you an example, near my office, there was a road with no pedestrian crossing and the nearest pedestrian crossing was further away. People used to regularly jay walk and cross the road. But recently a pedestrian crossing has appeared. So the moral of the story here is if lots of people are jay walking only at a particular place, that means, it is not a people problem, it is something else. In this case, the inconvenience of pedestrian crossing being far away.

That is the beauty of Singapore. People go around the system, only if it becomes difficult to go with the system. In Singapore, they make sure that following the rules is the easiest and best option and so you dont think about breaking the law or do unethical things.

But this PR application thingy is the only thing where I found that there are ways to make it more pragmatic and fix the reason why people are "jay walking" without really giving up much ground. In the process make it a pleasant experience for everyone involved.

I think it has been discussed before, but there was a disproportionate “wave” of a certain ethnic group that caused this dramatic tightening in order bring the ratios back to historical norms. It’s unfortunate… but I have to believe that eventually this wave will dissipate and PR will no longer be “next level difficult” at some point.

[smoulder]

One reason I know why people want to get themselves a PR is simply because it has become quite hard to be head hunted while you are on an EP.

Is it considered abuse? Perhaps - when you view it from the point of view of the government, it could be abuse. The government wants PRs (or as many of them as possible) who are committed enough to become citizens - people who are in it purely for job security or to job hop and with no attachments to the country are not the kind of PRs that they want.

[smoulder]

Most of my recently arrived colleagues, like in the past 5 years havent applied for PR, they all know it is close to impossible to get, so they didnt even try. While people like me who came here like 10 years ago, heard lots of stories about how people used to get PR, so I think it is only our cohort who still keep applying like crazy.

The intention of this thread is to just identify why do people apply for PR. Whether it consitutes abuse and if yes, then how to find a middle ground where there is no need for people to abuse.

Singapore is a very pragmatic country. If you notice most of the things here are arranged such that you dont have to go around the system. The system works for you. To give you an example, near my office, there was a road with no pedestrian crossing and the nearest pedestrian crossing was further away. People used to regularly jay walk and cross the road. But recently a pedestrian crossing has appeared. So the moral of the story here is if lots of people are jay walking only at a particular place, that means, it is not a people problem, it is something else. In this case, the inconvenience of pedestrian crossing being far away.

That is the beauty of Singapore. People go around the system, only if it becomes difficult to go with the system. In Singapore, they make sure that following the rules is the easiest and best option and so you dont think about breaking the law or do unethical things.

But this PR application thingy is the only thing where I found that there are ways to make it more pragmatic and fix the reason why people are "jay walking" without really giving up much ground. In the process make it a pleasant experience for everyone involved.

I think it has been discussed before, but there was a disproportionate “wave” of a certain ethnic group that caused this dramatic tightening in order bring the ratios back to historical norms. It’s unfortunate… but I have to believe that eventually this wave will dissipate and PR will no longer be “next level difficult” at some point.

The wave that you talk about happened because the government allowed it to happen. However, the thread is about abuse of the PR, rather than sheer numbers.

[malcontent]

One reason I know why people want to get themselves a PR is simply because it has become quite hard to be head hunted while you are on an EP.

Is it considered abuse? Perhaps - when you view it from the point of view of the government, it could be abuse. The government wants PRs (or as many of them as possible) who are committed enough to become citizens - people who are in it purely for job security or to job hop and with no attachments to the country are not the kind of PRs that they want.

While I know it seems to be more and more of a consensus opinion that one should not take up PR unless they intended to sink roots and take up citizenship.

However, I have to believe that there is still some nuance to that. Otherwise, by the same token, every PR that is granted should also be viewed as an intended future citizen, or else not granted PR.

I have a hard time believing that all PRs are supposed to be intended citizens — especially for racial category ‘others’ and especially those from western countries… they would probably know the % of PR converting to SC is low, and would probably grant a higher number of others than the population ratios would even allow.

If that were true, then it would seem creates a double standard for citizenship expectations and what constitutes abuse of PR.

It also begs another question… if one can abuse PR, can the abuse not work both ways if a PR applies for SC and is rejected? Doesn’t that amount to being left at the alter after an engagement?

[smoulder]

You're right Mal. That's the reason I qualified my statement with the part in bold.

The government wants PRs (or as many of them as possible) who are committed enough to become citizens

The gahmen is obviously not naive to believe that their selection criteria (which presumably tries to pick those who are likely to take up citizenship) to be fool proof. And that's probably why they pick a few more than they actually need and then discard the applications that they don't want.

[NYY1]

You're right Mal. That's the reason I qualified my statement with the part in bold.

The government wants PRs (or as many of them as possible) who are committed enough to become citizens

The gahmen is obviously not naive to believe that their selection criteria (which presumably tries to pick those who are likely to take up citizenship) to be fool proof. And that's probably why they pick a few more than they actually need and then discard the applications that they don't want.

I mentioned this before but it would be interesting to know what has happened to all of the PRs granted from 2010 onwards. The total issued would be about 360,000; how many have converted to SC, remained PR, or left? Perhaps the 360,000 is not the correct number to compare against, as some may not have hit the stage to apply for SC yet (either the statutory period or what is a typical duration as PR).

I would think (guess?) the "Others" category is largely made up of family ties applications or kids of neighboring ASEAN countries that have studied/worked here for some time (of course, there will be some other "Others" as well). It may be accepted that the former has a low chance of SC conversion. I think the reality is that many who got PR in the 1990-2010 period from certain countries may not be able to get it today. In fairness, these people likely never intended to convert to SC and that was probably known by both sides at the time. Now is different.

We did see one family that applied SC 2x but got rejected both times and subsequently decided to move on to Australia. I guess this is the other issue people are mentioning (even if given PR, no guarantee you can get SC).

[malcontent]

You're right Mal. That's the reason I qualified my statement with the part in bold.

The government wants PRs (or as many of them as possible) who are committed enough to become citizens

The gahmen is obviously not naive to believe that their selection criteria (which presumably tries to pick those who are likely to take up citizenship) to be fool proof. And that's probably why they pick a few more than they actually need and then discard the applications that they don't want.

I mentioned this before but it would be interesting to know what has happened to all of the PRs granted from 2010 onwards. The total issued would be about 360,000; how many have converted to SC, remained PR, or left? Perhaps the 360,000 is not the correct number to compare against, as some may not have hit the stage to apply for SC yet (either the statutory period or what is a typical duration as PR).

I would think (guess?) the "Others" category is largely made up of family ties applications or kids of neighboring ASEAN countries that have studied/worked here for some time (of course, there will be some other "Others" as well). It may be accepted that the former has a low chance of SC conversion. I think the reality is that many who got PR in the 1990-2010 period from certain countries may not be able to get it today. In fairness, these people likely never intended to convert to SC and that was probably known by both sides at the time. Now is different.

We did see one family that applied SC 2x but got rejected both times and subsequently decided to move on to Australia. I guess this is the other issue people are mentioning (even if given PR, no guarantee you can get SC).

This is where I find the whole idea (that one should be committed before applying PR) to a bit disingenuous… because one who commits themselves and believes the other side will reciprocate could end up a fool for doing so (if citizenship is never granted).

Commitment has to work both ways — it is hard to engender loyalty as a fair weathered friend. And, because of that I’ve always wondered to what extent PR abuse is even a thing.

Maybe we should accept that PR continues to be more like a marriage of convenience… on both sides, each looking out for their own best interests. And if that is the case, both sides really can’t complain that either side is not holding up their end of the bargain… can they?

[Wd40]

If you see the news about PR statistics, you will find that they say integration is an important criteria. Yet I find it odd that the chance to integrate is not given to everyone. The best way to integrate is via the local school system for the 2nd generation. If they are given a chance to go to local school and they spend like 10 years through the local school system, that is a good indication of integration. Yet, I don't think they want that kind of integration. Instead, they just kind of go by who is more likely to integrate and who is not based on certain factors or criteria. I just wish this was more transparent. They could make it more strict and rule based, like 10 years in local school. Also I don't see any point in focusing on 1st gen expats. It is the 2nd gen expats whom they should focus and try to groom them to become future citizens.

[jalanjalan]

When we were waiting for our new HDB flat to be built, we rented a 3room on the open market. Our landlord was from our neighbouring country up north, and he'd been gone a long time and we never saw him, we only dealt with an agent. Nothing against the guy as it wasn't illegal and he was an ok landlord, but it was rather ironic that a (at that time) young local couple rented public housing from a foreign based PR.

[smoulder]

If you see the news about PR statistics, you will find that they say integration is an important criteria. Yet I find it odd that the chance to integrate is not given to everyone. The best way to integrate is via the local school system for the 2nd generation. If they are given a chance to go to local school and they spend like 10 years through the local school system, that is a good indication of integration. Yet, I don't think they want that kind of integration. Instead, they just kind of go by who is more likely to integrate and who is not based on certain factors or criteria. I just wish this was more transparent. They could make it more strict and rule based, like 10 years in local school. Also I don't see any point in focusing on 1st gen expats. It is the 2nd gen expats whom they should focus and try to groom them to become future citizens.

When it comes to integration, their criteria apparently is "are you in a stable marriage with a local". I think it is less about who they think might integrate. I do agree with you that they could widen the net to include kids who have grown up in the local system.