Thoughts on 377a repeal

[Lisafuller]

...user friendly board...

Hilarious!

If anyone dares post a point of view that conflicts with the old regulars here, all bets on a constructive nature discussion are off.

I don't think mozarella99's comments were designed to be offensive to anyone in particular. But he's obviously very saddened by some of the comments on this thread. Sounds like a smart and sensitive chap who probably won't be sticking around.

Now let me disappear before the inevitable geriatric rage rains down.

Yup, don’t think he meant to offend! I believe most of us here just want to discuss our opinions, nobody has any malicious intent.

[malcontent]

There is always room for armchair discussions. However, as things stand (especially in light of the current announcements that have been made). What did you expect? To sit down once more and have a debate in a manner where LGBTQ+ allies keep doing more to varnish the egos of the openly biased? To continue cushioning even the most basic messaging. All while rights are being denied? While actual lives are being affected and folks are being marginalized.

Perhaps my comments were a tad too harsh. But we live in such times. Where folks with a certain mindset have lived their entire lives on their terms. Sure homophobes come in all ages and sizes. But they are united in unanimously choosing to actively thwart and deny others of basic rights.

So yeah, we "sympathizers" are running a bit low on patience at this point. It is precisely that frustration that may come off sounding rude. I'm also sure the lack of niceties is the least of the communities (LGBTQ+) problems right now.

So be prepared to face a bit of a shelling as folks like myself (vocally in public or on online forums such as this) see and react to this move from the government. It's not going to come gift wrapped with a thank you note.

The world is already bending over backwards to cater to “anyone who identifies as anything” to the point that it is becoming nonsensical. Those with a moral objection to anything are being labeled, cancelled and marginalized. They don’t count, because they don’t fit the narrative.

It has nothing to do with phobia or a bias, it’s not even about the individual or who they are. It’s only about what they do. There are plenty of morally objectionable things that heteros do too. You don’t need laws against that - but you also don’t need to shove it in our face, tell us to accept it or have the government recognize it and hold it up as as morally acceptable.

It is all about respecting differences — not just the differences you are sympathetic to, but even those you don’t agree with… like the devoutly religious. You can’t claim to respect people’s differences if you cherry pick which differences to respect.

[jalanjalan]

On the original question... I think the govt is handling the repeal issue quite well, balancing a very delicate topic so there is minimal social upheaval. I think sensible small steps (that fit our cultural context) will happen given time, but trying to force too much too soon will be a disaster, which is what the govt is clearly trying to avoid by making these matters for parliament, not the courts. I'm neither vehemently for nor against when it comes to this issue, but I am vehemently against creating a culture war mindset here. We all have to live together on our island after all.

[malcontent]

On the original question... I think the govt is handling the repeal issue quite well, balancing a very delicate topic so there is minimal social upheaval. I think sensible small steps (that fit our cultural context) will happen given time, but trying to force too much too soon will be a disaster, which is what the govt is clearly trying to avoid by making these matters for parliament, not the courts. I'm neither vehemently for nor against when it comes to this issue, but I am vehemently against creating a culture war mindset here. We all have to live together on our island after all.

A very sensible and thoughtful view. I agree, the culture wars make me sick… to the point that I can’t even watch CNN or Fox News anymore. People are getting brainwashed and don’t even have a mind of their own anymore.

[malcontent]

I don’t mean to pick on you mozarella99, but sometimes people who think they are open minded and progressive, might not be as free of bias, prejudice and discrimination as they think.

Saw this thread and was hoping to read a few progressive thoughts and comments. Alas - I was disappointed.

Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.

Also the responses help color the mindset of the some senior members on this forum - which is that they are indeed err...quite senior.

Ageism is prejudice or discrimination against a particular age-group and especially the elderly.

[Lisafuller]

There is always room for armchair discussions. However, as things stand (especially in light of the current announcements that have been made). What did you expect? To sit down once more and have a debate in a manner where LGBTQ+ allies keep doing more to varnish the egos of the openly biased? To continue cushioning even the most basic messaging. All while rights are being denied? While actual lives are being affected and folks are being marginalized.

Perhaps my comments were a tad too harsh. But we live in such times. Where folks with a certain mindset have lived their entire lives on their terms. Sure homophobes come in all ages and sizes. But they are united in unanimously choosing to actively thwart and deny others of basic rights.

So yeah, we "sympathizers" are running a bit low on patience at this point. It is precisely that frustration that may come off sounding rude. I'm also sure the lack of niceties is the least of the communities (LGBTQ+) problems right now.

So be prepared to face a bit of a shelling as folks like myself (vocally in public or on online forums such as this) see and react to this move from the government. It's not going to come gift wrapped with a thank you note.

The world is already bending over backwards to cater to “anyone who identifies as anything” to the point that it is becoming nonsensical. Those with a moral objection to anything are being labeled, cancelled and marginalized. They don’t count, because they don’t fit the narrative.

Yup, in the US some schools now no longer allow teachers to question students gender or sexual identity, even if they identify as nonhuman, say cats for example. It’s just a slippery slope, where does it end?

[Lisafuller]

On the original question... I think the govt is handling the repeal issue quite well, balancing a very delicate topic so there is minimal social upheaval. I think sensible small steps (that fit our cultural context) will happen given time, but trying to force too much too soon will be a disaster, which is what the govt is clearly trying to avoid by making these matters for parliament, not the courts. I'm neither vehemently for nor against when it comes to this issue, but I am vehemently against creating a culture war mindset here. We all have to live together on our island after all.

Agree, if the measure for having handled this issue well is whether or not the decision to repeal created public outrage, then yes the government did do a very good job.

[Lisafuller]

On the original question... I think the govt is handling the repeal issue quite well, balancing a very delicate topic so there is minimal social upheaval. I think sensible small steps (that fit our cultural context) will happen given time, but trying to force too much too soon will be a disaster, which is what the govt is clearly trying to avoid by making these matters for parliament, not the courts. I'm neither vehemently for nor against when it comes to this issue, but I am vehemently against creating a culture war mindset here. We all have to live together on our island after all.

A very sensible and thoughtful view. I agree, the culture wars make me sick… to the point that I can’t even watch CNN or Fox News anymore. People are getting brainwashed and don’t even have a mind of their own anymore.

Aren’t CNN and Fox polar opposites?

[sundaymorningstaple]

They are to a point but they both play the same way now. Hard to believe either one of them as the gospel.

[mozarella99]

There is always room for armchair discussions. However, as things stand (especially in light of the current announcements that have been made). What did you expect? To sit down once more and have a debate in a manner where LGBTQ+ allies keep doing more to varnish the egos of the openly biased? To continue cushioning even the most basic messaging. All while rights are being denied? While actual lives are being affected and folks are being marginalized.

Perhaps my comments were a tad too harsh. But we live in such times. Where folks with a certain mindset have lived their entire lives on their terms. Sure homophobes come in all ages and sizes. But they are united in unanimously choosing to actively thwart and deny others of basic rights.

So yeah, we "sympathizers" are running a bit low on patience at this point. It is precisely that frustration that may come off sounding rude. I'm also sure the lack of niceties is the least of the communities (LGBTQ+) problems right now.

So be prepared to face a bit of a shelling as folks like myself (vocally in public or on online forums such as this) see and react to this move from the government. It's not going to come gift wrapped with a thank you note.

The world is already bending over backwards to cater to “anyone who identifies as anything” to the point that it is becoming nonsensical. Those with a moral objection to anything are being labeled, cancelled and marginalized. They don’t count, because they don’t fit the narrative.

It has nothing to do with phobia or a bias, it’s not even about the individual or who they are. It’s only about what they do. There are plenty of morally objectionable things that heteros do too. You don’t need laws against that - but you also don’t need to shove it in our face, tell us to accept it or have the government recognize it and hold it up as as morally acceptable.

It is all about respecting differences — not just the differences you are sympathetic to, but even those you don’t agree with… like the devoutly religious. You can’t claim to respect people’s differences if you cherry pick which differences to respect.

You do realise why the world is "bending over backwards" right? You must take a moment to think of why this narrative exists.

In India where I come from - the caste system has ruined the lives of several millions. And these are not one off instances. This systematic oppression that has broken the hopes and aspirations of several generations!

Similarly the entire LGBTQ+ community fighting for basic, I repeat, very basic civil rights isn't meant at "shoving it in your face". It's more to do with the fact that the world owes them a break. It isn't the same as drugs or gambling or any other vice that someone might pick up. These are folks living their life, dare I say - just as openly as you would want to live yours.

So using old analogy of the India caste system once more. When the country brought in reservations (a system where the government set aside positions in both academia and government jobs) for these marginalized communities. This move has been met (even to date) with stiff opposition from the "upper caste". Their objection was always that this was unfair and that folks from lower castes didn't live up to moral/religious standards of the time.

How is it alright for any society, let alone a supposedly progressive one like Singapore, to have different goal posts for different citizens. I would argue that the world needs to continue doing all that it can. It might still not suffice. But it's a start.

My point is that it's hard to have nuanced balanced discussions at times like this. I know we must. But to sit here and wait what? Another 15 years before the needle moves again just to appease and continue massaging egos of folks who somehow see this as a threat to their lives. That's another generation who have lost opportunities!

And I highly doubt you'd see it the same way if your son or daughter or a loved one came out as gay or lesbian. Because it only then would you see how detrimental such constitutional amendments are. More importantly you might then also begin seeing how accepting and giving them their lives back isn't going to affect your life or the lives of hetero folks/religious groups etc even in the slightest.

[jalanjalan]

My point is that it's hard to have nuanced balanced discussions at times like this. I know we must. But to sit here and wait what? Another 15 years before the needle moves again just to appease and continue massaging egos of folks who somehow see this as a threat to their lives.

Yes. Such is the real, complicated world where people have different strongly held beliefs and have to find a way to live together harmoniously despite that. There are no quick fixes, I'm afraid. If you're female you will already know, achieving equal rights is a long, messy process, with setbacks and compromises along the way. But that doesn't mean we can't live a good life, especially in places like Singapore where we are protected from harm, can own property, can move about freely, can go to school and can vote. It wasn't so long ago in human history that none of those were a reality. Small moves make for lasting results.
I'm not expecting you to agree with me, just sharing my views.

[malcontent]

You do realise why the world is "bending over backwards" right? You must take a moment to think of why this narrative exists.

In India where I come from - the caste system has ruined the lives of several millions. And these are not one off instances. This systematic oppression that has broken the hopes and aspirations of several generations!

Discrimination against anyone based on who they are is wrong. I think we are in violent agreement on that much.

Similarly the entire LGBTQ+ community fighting for basic, I repeat, very basic civil rights isn't meant at "shoving it in your face". It's more to do with the fact that the world owes them a break. It isn't the same as drugs or gambling or any other vice that someone might pick up. These are folks living their life, dare I say - just as openly as you would want to live yours.

I googled “what are basic civil rights” and got the first hit from britannica.com…

Examples of civil rights include the right to vote, the right to a fair trial, the right to government services, the right to a public education, and the right to use public facilities.

Are you saying these kinds of civil rights being are being denied? How exactly?

So using old analogy of the India caste system once more. When the country brought in reservations (a system where the government set aside positions in both academia and government jobs) for these marginalized communities. This move has been met (even to date) with stiff opposition from the "upper caste". Their objection was always that this was unfair and that folks from lower castes didn't live up to moral/religious standards of the time.

How is it alright for any society, let alone a supposedly progressive one like Singapore, to have different goal posts for different citizens. I would argue that the world needs to continue doing all that it can. It might still not suffice. But it's a start.

My point is that it's hard to have nuanced balanced discussions at times like this. I know we must. But to sit here and wait what? Another 15 years before the needle moves again just to appease and continue massaging egos of folks who somehow see this as a threat to their lives. That's another generation who have lost opportunities!

Opportunities for what exactly? What is this goal post that you are referring to?

How can the world do even more? I thought you agreed that the world is already bending over backwards.

And I highly doubt you'd see it the same way if your son or daughter or a loved one came out as gay or lesbian. Because it only then would you see how detrimental such constitutional amendments are. More importantly you might then also begin seeing how accepting and giving them their lives back isn't going to affect your life or the lives of hetero folks/religious groups etc even in the slightest.

I can tell you unequivocally, my view would not change in the slightest - no matter who it is or how much I love them. My unwavering belief is always… love the sinner, hate the sin.

[bro75]

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

[mozarella99]

Well said bro75. Couldn't have said it better. This is perhaps the best possible summary of the conservative views expressed/held by the super senior members on this thread.

[malcontent]

I’m all for equality, except when it infringes on others. You don’t need to redefine the legal definition of marriage to achieve equality.