PR abuse

[malcontent]

At the risk of stirring the pot, I’d like to ask an important question - what constitutes PR abuse and why?

And no, I am not being sarcastic. Let me preface by saying things are very tightly controlled here, probably more so than most any country in the world. I have to wonder whether there is really a loophole; can one really exploit the benefits of PR while not holding up their end of the bargain? What exactly is that bargain, and if that bargain exists… why is not holding it up even allowed? Why is there no penalty for abusing PR, if indeed it exists?

This is just my curious mind at work, as I’ve come across allegations of PR abuse on this forum and never fully grasped it, but genuinely want to understand — exactly where the collective wisdom of the forum draws the line.

[MOCHS]

This is going to be a very long complicated discussion with no right or wrong.

The “you” I am using in this post is a generic “you” and not targeting any specific member in particular.

SG has no natural resources to speak of and needs people. The only way to get people will be through PR & citizenship.

Ultimately, I feel the endgame of PR is citizenship but some just stay maybe a few years before going home or somewhere else like Australia, UK, US, etc.

Majority of the SG population are probably not financially privileged enough to be one of the 200K+ overseas Singaporeans. Being able to go overseas to study/work is a luxury many take for granted. Some are stuck in the cycle of low income if they are not given the opportunity. Sometimes they forgo opportunity to feed their families.

If you can see things from their POV instead of constantly repeating that “SG is so bloody expensive for so many essentials and quality of life sucks balls here, I am going back home forever when the kids go to college.”

Do you understand that you are rubbing it in people’s faces that you see SG as a temporary place to hoard savings while preparing an exit plan? You are already an outsider, coming into SG as an expat with higher than average pay and staying in cushy private housing. You are already a lot more privileged than an average Singaporean. Sure, you can do whatever you want since it’s your life but have some EQ lah. SG gave you a place to work and stay but you see it as purely “business”.

The only “abuse” I can think of are:
- PR people in the past bringing in their “entire village of relatives” to SG and trying to get PR for them but never really integrating into SG.
- Getting PR for self but not for son is very telling the PRs don’t wanna stay here forever. Or they managed to get PR for son but pulled out of SG early ‘cos they feel two years of character building is a waste of time.

It’s more of reaping the benefits and saying kthxbyebyeSG than outright “abuse”.

Benefits a PR has:
1. Being able to buy HDB aka subsidised housing
2. Subsidised healthcare
3. Subsidised education in local schools (I’m not looking at IP through-train to A lvl sec schools ‘cos their pricing is different)
4. Being able to stay essentially forever in SG without being worried on whether they can continue to stay on their EP, S-pass, LTVP, dependent pass, etc.

Yes, I know the subsidy isn’t as much as a citizen but some money discounted is better than no money at all.

For point 4, it is definitely less stressful if you don’t have to fret about your visa status yearly (or every couple of years). As long as you’re working and in SG majority of the time, re-entry permit (REP) should be renewed without a problem.

For point 3, saves a lot of money if the kid isn’t in International School.

For point 2, I know some PR just go back to their home country for medical treatment if it’s cheaper (or free) there than here. I have no issues with that.

For point 1… I won’t be surprised if many PRs secretly hold onto their property overseas while having HDB here. Easy to rent out the house overseas and get some side income while staying in the HDB. Or vice versa, stay overseas most of the time but rent out the HDB. Other than the affluent, how many average Singaporeans have at least two properties?

Of course there are PRs who ain’t expats and integrated well into SG. I have no problems with them.

I do acknowledge there are Singaporeans themselves that have an exit plan to retire elsewhere but somehow, they don’t seem to be treated as harshly. Humans are strange…

Should there be a penalty for “abusing PR”? No lah, we will be ridiculed. No other country implements penalties for PRs, to my knowledge.

At the end of the day, there’s still a bit of “them vs us” mentality which causes the discourse. Perhaps we should learn to just be happy for each other for being able to work towards their goal without bearing ill will. Maybe people are just sad a friend they’ve had for so many years goes away for good.

[smoulder]

I do acknowledge there are Singaporeans themselves that have an exit plan to retire elsewhere but somehow, they don’t seem to be treated as harshly. Humans are strange…

Curious about this statement. Not treated as harshly by who? By fellow Singaporeans?

[smoulder]

I think MOCHS covered most of the major points.

My own 2 cents. I'll bet that whichever country you go to, there will be *some* locally born person or the other who harbors a grudge (?) against either PRs or new citizens for "using" the country or not integrating. It's just inevitable. There will always be the us vs them syndrome.

The thing with integration is that most adults who immigrate will find it quite difficult to integrate till the extent where you would not be able to tell that they weren't always born in that country. It's things like accents and words /slang that will easily give them away - you can only integrate so much. Of course you need to try. I do know of people who have gone all the way and become citizens and who still quite detached from their new countries. In other countries, it wouldn't matter as much because of their size and scale, but it really is a big deal in this tiny island.

[malcontent]

This is going to be a very long complicated discussion with no right or wrong.

The “you” I am using in this post is a generic “you” and not targeting any specific member in particular.

SG has no natural resources to speak of and needs people. The only way to get people will be through PR & citizenship.

Ultimately, I feel the endgame of PR is citizenship but some just stay maybe a few years before going home or somewhere else like Australia, UK, US, etc.

Majority of the SG population are probably not financially privileged enough to be one of the 200K+ overseas Singaporeans. Being able to go overseas to study/work is a luxury many take for granted. Some are stuck in the cycle of low income if they are not given the opportunity. Sometimes they forgo opportunity to feed their families.

If you can see things from their POV instead of constantly repeating that “SG is so bloody expensive for so many essentials and quality of life sucks balls here, I am going back home forever when the kids go to college.”

Do you understand that you are rubbing it in people’s faces that you see SG as a temporary place to hoard savings while preparing an exit plan? You are already an outsider, coming into SG as an expat with higher than average pay and staying in cushy private housing. You are already a lot more privileged than an average Singaporean. Sure, you can do whatever you want since it’s your life but have some EQ lah. SG gave you a place to work and stay but you see it as purely “business”.

The only “abuse” I can think of are:
- PR people in the past bringing in their “entire village of relatives” to SG and trying to get PR for them but never really integrating into SG.
- Getting PR for self but not for son is very telling the PRs don’t wanna stay here forever. Or they managed to get PR for son but pulled out of SG early ‘cos they feel two years of character building is a waste of time.

It’s more of reaping the benefits and saying kthxbyebyeSG than outright “abuse”.

Benefits a PR has:
1. Being able to buy HDB aka subsidised housing
2. Subsidised healthcare
3. Subsidised education in local schools (I’m not looking at IP through-train to A lvl sec schools ‘cos their pricing is different)
4. Being able to stay essentially forever in SG without being worried on whether they can continue to stay on their EP, S-pass, LTVP, dependent pass, etc.

Yes, I know the subsidy isn’t as much as a citizen but some money discounted is better than no money at all.

For point 4, it is definitely less stressful if you don’t have to fret about your visa status yearly (or every couple of years). As long as you’re working and in SG majority of the time, re-entry permit (REP) should be renewed without a problem.

For point 3, saves a lot of money if the kid isn’t in International School.

For point 2, I know some PR just go back to their home country for medical treatment if it’s cheaper (or free) there than here. I have no issues with that.

For point 1… I won’t be surprised if many PRs secretly hold onto their property overseas while having HDB here. Easy to rent out the house overseas and get some side income while staying in the HDB. Or vice versa, stay overseas most of the time but rent out the HDB. Other than the affluent, how many average Singaporeans have at least two properties?

Of course there are PRs who ain’t expats and integrated well into SG. I have no problems with them.

I do acknowledge there are Singaporeans themselves that have an exit plan to retire elsewhere but somehow, they don’t seem to be treated as harshly. Humans are strange…

Should there be a penalty for “abusing PR”? No lah, we will be ridiculed. No other country implements penalties for PRs, to my knowledge.

At the end of the day, there’s still a bit of “them vs us” mentality which causes the discourse. Perhaps we should learn to just be happy for each other for being able to work towards their goal without bearing ill will. Maybe people are just sad a friend they’ve had for so many years goes away for good.

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply.

So “holding up their end of the bargain” means… a PR should intend to become a SC, should have an altruistic approach to the benefits they receive, be prepared to give back to society and also be also be expected to integrate. That all seems reasonable, and I would guess much of that thought process goes into decisions for SC applications.

I know that many mainland Chinese see Singapore as nothing more than a stepping stone to migrate to Australia or Canada. This happened a lot in the 2000’s. I believe screening techniques were improved in the 2010’s to address this, but it’s still an issue.

One example is still a friend of mine from Wuhan and I visited him on a trip we made to Toronto in 2019. He hasn’t changed much, works for KPMG there and he told me that he just couldn’t afford to live in Singapore.

One of my former bosses (from China, master’s degree from NUS) left for Australia in 2018. She had two daughters and they had actually submitted an application for SC, but her husband convinced her to withdraw the application, give up PR and move to Perth.

Another friend of mine from India who was a PR here for many years, finally gave up his PR and moved his family back to India after he got a job offer that paid the same salary as he was getting in Singapore. He always wanted to move back to start his own business in India, and last I saw he had quit his job and started a travel agency there.

I know one American guy, long time PR here who retired last year, he was seriously thinking about trying to keep his PR and planned to at least try and stay in Singapore for the early years of his retirement. However, it’s not easy once you turn 65 because Medicare doesn’t work overseas.

[smoulder]

Mal, I think all those examples you cited have one thing in common. They all represent people who had very little emotional connection with Singapore.

[malcontent]

I think MOCHS covered most of the major points.

My own 2 cents. I'll bet that whichever country you go to, there will be *some* locally born person or the other who harbors a grudge (?) against either PRs or new citizens for "using" the country or not integrating. It's just inevitable. There will always be the us vs them syndrome.

The thing with integration is that most adults who immigrate will find it quite difficult to integrate till the extent where you would not be able to tell that they weren't always born in that country. It's things like accents and words /slang that will easily give them away - you can only integrate so much. Of course you need to try. I do know of people who have gone all the way and become citizens and who still quite detached from their new countries. In other countries, it wouldn't matter as much because of their size and scale, but it really is a big deal in this tiny island.

I know one American guy who was a partner at major consulting firm here in the 2000’s… he converted to SG citizenship purely for the tax reasons. He was making 7 figures annually, so he must have thought - why not save a big 6 figure tax bill each year?

I didn’t even know he was a Singaporean until the Tsunami at Phuket; he made headlines as one of the first ‘Singaporeans’ to make it safely back at the time! You might think he didn’t enjoy any subsidies, but he had a bunch of kids with his Filipina wife, and knowing him, they would all be getting schooled for free here.

[malcontent]

Mal, I think all those examples you cited have one thing in common. They all represent people who had very little emotional connection with Singapore.

That is probably true, but I have also known many true blue Singaporeans, born and raised here, that want nothing more than to leave. Most of these folks have quite a chip on their shoulder. And do you know what really sets them off? Trying to say something positive about Singapore. Especially me, as an ang moh, who can never understand their plight. I quickly learned my lesson!

[smoulder]

Mal, I think all those examples you cited have one thing in common. They all represent people who had very little emotional connection with Singapore.

That is probably true, but I have also known many true blue Singaporeans, born and raised here, that want nothing more than to leave. Most of these folks have quite a chip on their shoulder. And do you know what really sets them off? Trying to say something positive about Singapore. Especially me, as an ang moh, who can never understand their plight. I quickly learned my lesson!

LOL I hear you.

But I do feel that it is possibly a lot more complicated.... Kind of like a bad break up. The attachment is still there, but there's an overwhelming feeling of bitterness and resentment, sometimes irrational.

[malcontent]

Mal, I think all those examples you cited have one thing in common. They all represent people who had very little emotional connection with Singapore.

That is probably true, but I have also known many true blue Singaporeans, born and raised here, that want nothing more than to leave. Most of these folks have quite a chip on their shoulder. And do you know what really sets them off? Trying to say something positive about Singapore. Especially me, as an ang moh, who can never understand their plight. I quickly learned my lesson!

LOL I hear you.

But I do feel that it is possibly a lot more complicated.... Kind of like a bad break up. The attachment is still there, but there's an overwhelming feeling of bitterness and resentment, sometimes irrational.

You’re right, but instead of a bad break up, I think they would describe if as if they are an abused partner… they really feel victimized and exploited, but like you said, still attached.

And no point trying to change their view (as I have learned), they will never be convinced otherwise. It’s a sad way to live, and I believe it distracts them from the success they could have had in life.

[MOCHS]

Not treated as harshly by who? By fellow Singaporeans?

Yeah, if a fellow Singaporean has an exit plan, most of us just react with “Okay, go lor.”

I feel there are a few categories of Singaporeans with an exit plan:

1. Married to a foreign spouse and wants to settle in spouse’s country.

2. Part of the LGBTQ community since their marriage isn’t legally recognised here or they experience discrimination and rather go overseas to places where it is rainbow friendly.

3. Complains about SG being too expensive, too pressurising, no nature, no freedom, no work-life balance, etc. Feels the grass is greener on the other side compared to “Stinkapore”. Some really do strive to get the opportunity to work aboard. And maybe some just keep ranting but make no effort to move overseas.

4. Does like & appreciate SG but after analysing various aspects, practically makes a decision to retire overseas for lower cost of living.

I think the whole “us vs them” boils down to what pass you’re on. If you’re on a work pass, it is accepted you’re here temporarily and will go back home eventually. If you converted to PR, it implies you are already committed to be here permanently instead of parachuting off when the opportunity arises which leads to SG losing its one resource which is people.

[NYY1]

.....
If you can see things from their POV instead of constantly repeating that “SG is so bloody expensive for so many essentials and quality of life sucks balls here, I am going back home forever when the kids go to college.”

Do you understand that you are rubbing it in people’s faces that you see SG as a temporary place to hoard savings while preparing an exit plan? You are already an outsider, coming into SG as an expat with higher than average pay and staying in cushy private housing. You are already a lot more privileged than an average Singaporean. Sure, you can do whatever you want since it’s your life but have some EQ lah. SG gave you a place to work and stay but you see it as purely “business”.
.....

I do believe people could show their host country a bit more respect. No place is perfect but at any point in time they could have returned home or moved on elsewhere. The decision to stay here (or anywhere) as a guest is voluntary. Presumably, at every point along the way they thought SG was better than their alternative?

While I don't disagree with anything you say about "permanent," to be fair the time and thinking under which some people here (in SG broadly) obtained PR was perhaps different from today? As I mentioned elsewhere, there may be a portion of 40-50 year olds that obtained PR decades ago and never had any intention to convert to SC. The difference now is that many of these people likely wouldn't be approved. Still, I wouldn't say they've "abused" anything even if they decide to move on or move back home.

Another difference now is the fact that applications without the full family are very difficult so there is a strong self-selection bias as to who applies for PR. I.e. the ones that want to stay here and may have a much higher chance of eventually converting.

[NYY1]

.....
Benefits a PR has:
.....
3. Subsidised education in local schools (I’m not looking at IP through-train to A lvl sec schools ‘cos their pricing is different)
.....
For point 1… I won’t be surprised if many PRs secretly hold onto their property overseas while having HDB here. Easy to rent out the house overseas and get some side income while staying in the HDB. Or vice versa, stay overseas most of the time but rent out the HDB. Other than the affluent, how many average Singaporeans have at least two properties?
.....

For these points, I would add that non-SC is not allowed to rent out the HDB (if they are overseas or living in condo). If they are doing so, they are doing it illegally.

https://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/resid ... ligibility

As for the schools, Singapore government does provide substantial subsidies for PRs in IP schools. Whether IP or O Level Stream, the government school fees for PRs are about $15k per year lower than the non-ASEAN rate (which may include some subsidy as well). If there is a difference in the IP school fees, I think it has more to do with the school's status (gov't, gov't aided, or independent). For some independent schools like RGS, the PR subsidy could hit $20k per year. SCs also pay more for the independent schools, although ESIS can offset much of the differential.

[MOCHS]

^ I am aware there are subsidies for IP schools as well, I am saying the pricing between IP & regular schools are different, even after subsidy. And majority of students go to regular neighbourhood schools, which was what I was focusing on, the majority. For citizens, they are still paying a few hundreds a month for IP school even after subsidy. For local school, it should be less than $20 a month for sec sch, free for primary school, if I’m not wrong.

As for the renting part, I guess they can rent out their overseas property while staying in HDB. Or have only one spouse convert to SC to get around the “non-SC owner cannot rent out” rule? Must all the owners be SCs to rent out or just one owner?

[NYY1]

For non-SC, the fees for govt IP school like RVHS, are the same as for a govt neighborhood school (O Level). RVHS for SC is $28 per month (school fees plus other fees).

It's the IP Independent schools that will have different/higher fees for all students. As you mentioned, SCs will pay a few hundred (varies by school). If the student is eligible for ESIS, this will reduce each month by $200.