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Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

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Lisafuller
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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:25 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 5:25 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 5:07 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 11:23 am

I'm surprised Michigan will take just the O Level (I know it works elsewhere), although they definitely do. Historically, Michigan's student body and post uni placement (for business) are a lot more national than most midwestern schools. i.e. maybe not quite the draw as the UC schools but it is still very well regarded.

The transfer game may have become harder over the years, although still possible (know of people that did it a decade ago or so).

This also shows Singapore has 39 students in U Michigan undegrad!
https://admissions.umich.edu/apply/firs ... nt-profile
Transferring today is even harder than getting in as a freshman, though it may be intuitive to believe the opposite. From what I understand, transfer acceptance rates at some of the most exclusive schools like the Ivies can be as low as 1%, or even less. This is simply because they offer such a small number of places each year, and are inevitably over subscribed. As for the number of local students at UMich, I personally know six girls studying there right now, my daughter’s seniors. I guess they are part of the statistic!
I have heard similar things - harder to transfer - but only in relation to top schools. I believe it’s also harder to get in as a freshmen to top schools… but mid-tier and lower-tier are still fairly easy. Being from the latter myself, I don’t see it as a big loss if my kids can’t get into a top ranked university. In the US there are many hidden gems that are overlooked and have high acceptance rates. Indiana University is one example… their business program is absolutely top notch, well above many top schools — so you can still get an amazing education without scoring top marks to get in.
I was referring to top schools, but completely agree that in the US, there are plenty of lower ranked schools that are just as good in terms of the quality of programs and number of resources. One example that comes to mind is Syracuse university, it actually has the number one school of public policy in the country, out ranking even Harvard. That was one of the reasons my daughter was so keen on attending.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:28 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 5:42 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 5:05 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:59 am


I’ve checked into this before, completing secondary school here is deemed equivalent to earning a high school diploma in the US. There are many universities (not the elite, but top 30-50) that outright recognize O-Levels for entry to their school, especially in the Midwest. Purdue is a good example, popular for engineering. Michigan is another, popular for business. In California, all UC schools require A-levels, but all California State Schools accept O-levels for entry. So for my daughter, since wants to go to a UC school, there’s no choice.

My wife did her O-levels in Singapore and went straight to university in the US, starting at an unranked school and then transferring. After a few years at this unranked school she got offers at Penn State and other good schools when she was looking to transfer. So it’s not just theoretical, you can really do it.
That’s pretty awesome, I know your wife did it but are you sure it can still be done today? I don’t know many 16 year olds in college. It’s a little late for my daughter now as she has already completed her A levels, but this I’m sure would be a game changer for a lot of kids looking to study in the US. Would save them a hell of a lot of time and stress. Does she have any UC in particular that she is looking at? UCLA or Berkeley perhaps?
Probably UCLA, but just about any of the more popular UC schools… before deciding it would be a good to know what her major is going to be; right now she has no idea. Berkeley would be best for business. Her cousin got into UC San Diego and will start there this fall — it is a little easier to get into… and I am pretty sure she will apply there as well.
The nice thing about the UC is, if I’m not mistaken is that you can technically apply to all of them using just one application. They use a different application from the rest of the colleges in the US, not the common app or the coalition app. Another thing that I really appreciate about the UC‘s is that they offer something called admission by exception, where if by chance you don’t meet certain admission requirements but feel there’s a valid reason why, you are given the full chance to explain yourself and have just as good opportunity to attend. This probably isn’t relevant to your daughter as I’m sure she has a very clean transcript, but it does show that they value things other than academics.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:30 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:00 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 5:02 pm
Excellent points. I do agree with most of what has been said, though I must say I’ve always seen Econ as more of a science, especially with the way it is taught in local JCs. I’ve always seen it as a loophole to allow science-brained students to succeed, since typically those who are very good at science don’t tend to have that same aptitude for the arts.
...
Yes on Econ. I've thought that kids could benefit from taking a humanities in Sec 3-4 that they can continue with in JC. The topics/content won't be cumulative per se, but you stick with the training and learn how to improve in this one subject vs. having to jump to something new in JC (or go back to one of the core humanities that you haven't taken for 2 years). I guess for the science heavy kids if their brain just doesn't click with the traditional humanities that's a consideration.
Agree, I also think it’s important to take a humanities subject because it helps to hone an entirely different set of skills, like reading, analysis and essay writing. These are things you wouldn’t get taking a purely science-based route. My daughter avoided Econ like the plague, but unfortunately had to take it as she went with a pure humanities combination. Instead of taking a science subject, she went with knowledge and inquiry, which is somewhat like philosophy. I will say that the fact that there weren’t more humanities subjects that she could’ve taken to fill up her courseload is telling of the fact that the system doesn’t really support the humanities.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:32 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:18 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 4:54 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:01 am

I think the local (Singapore) law and med tracks have been selecting more and more kids from other sources besides RJC/HCJC. There's still a concentration (for scholarships too), both by interest and ability, but it seems they want to admit a broader pool of applicants. Poly grads into med have been increasing too (granted, still a small portion).
Definitely still a very very small portion. Though it is comforting if the figures are indeed rising. As for local law and med, I still think it’s very much reserved for elite schools only, but then again this can be explained by the fact that elite schools are typically the ones to produce high a level scorers, and when one of the only criteria for acceptance is RP, what do you expect?
I think some of the students are being distributed around a bit more every year too. ACS(I) via the IB is gaining popularity, and ACS(I) / MGS IP seem to have a strong following. Eunoia JC has also gone through four cycles of A Level results now and this (2022) is the third year of intake where students are all at the new campus. The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS trio has probably gained/retained some students because of this (some of their primary kids still go elsewhere if they can). Years back, some were hesitant about committing to the IP programme because there was no track record at EJC. But I don't think this is an open question anymore, as the result have been pretty good. Nanyang JC JAE COP has also dropped a lot over the years too (5 points now), it seems every popular among the O level to JC kids.
I am curious, where did those from these three schools go for JC before Eunoia?

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:38 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:30 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:00 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 5:02 pm
Excellent points. I do agree with most of what has been said, though I must say I’ve always seen Econ as more of a science, especially with the way it is taught in local JCs. I’ve always seen it as a loophole to allow science-brained students to succeed, since typically those who are very good at science don’t tend to have that same aptitude for the arts.
...
Yes on Econ. I've thought that kids could benefit from taking a humanities in Sec 3-4 that they can continue with in JC. The topics/content won't be cumulative per se, but you stick with the training and learn how to improve in this one subject vs. having to jump to something new in JC (or go back to one of the core humanities that you haven't taken for 2 years). I guess for the science heavy kids if their brain just doesn't click with the traditional humanities that's a consideration.
Agree, I also think it’s important to take a humanities subject because it helps to hone an entirely different set of skills, like reading, analysis and essay writing. These are things you wouldn’t get taking a purely science-based route. My daughter avoided Econ like the plague, but unfortunately had to take it as she went with a pure humanities combination. Instead of taking a science subject, she went with knowledge and inquiry, which is somewhat like philosophy. I will say that the fact that there weren’t more humanities subjects that she could’ve taken to fill up her courseload is telling of the fact that the system doesn’t really support the humanities.
So she took KI - Econ - Lit (or perhaps ELL) - One of History/Geo (don't believe you can take both)?

There's more flexibility if you can take one of the H2 Foreign Languages or the Chinese heavy classes like CLL, CSC, or TRC, but again this is going to be a very small subset of the student population (and some Chinese related ones only offered at certain JCs).

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:43 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:32 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:18 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 4:54 pm


Definitely still a very very small portion. Though it is comforting if the figures are indeed rising. As for local law and med, I still think it’s very much reserved for elite schools only, but then again this can be explained by the fact that elite schools are typically the ones to produce high a level scorers, and when one of the only criteria for acceptance is RP, what do you expect?
I think some of the students are being distributed around a bit more every year too. ACS(I) via the IB is gaining popularity, and ACS(I) / MGS IP seem to have a strong following. Eunoia JC has also gone through four cycles of A Level results now and this (2022) is the third year of intake where students are all at the new campus. The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS trio has probably gained/retained some students because of this (some of their primary kids still go elsewhere if they can). Years back, some were hesitant about committing to the IP programme because there was no track record at EJC. But I don't think this is an open question anymore, as the result have been pretty good. Nanyang JC JAE COP has also dropped a lot over the years too (5 points now), it seems every popular among the O level to JC kids.
I am curious, where did those from these three schools go for JC before Eunoia?
The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS IP has always gone to Eunoia. They were among the later IP programmes to start up (more came online at this time too, so it's not like they were the only one); the first Sec 1 intake should have been 2013 for JC2 in 2018.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:46 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:38 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:30 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:00 pm

Yes on Econ. I've thought that kids could benefit from taking a humanities in Sec 3-4 that they can continue with in JC. The topics/content won't be cumulative per se, but you stick with the training and learn how to improve in this one subject vs. having to jump to something new in JC (or go back to one of the core humanities that you haven't taken for 2 years). I guess for the science heavy kids if their brain just doesn't click with the traditional humanities that's a consideration.
Agree, I also think it’s important to take a humanities subject because it helps to hone an entirely different set of skills, like reading, analysis and essay writing. These are things you wouldn’t get taking a purely science-based route. My daughter avoided Econ like the plague, but unfortunately had to take it as she went with a pure humanities combination. Instead of taking a science subject, she went with knowledge and inquiry, which is somewhat like philosophy. I will say that the fact that there weren’t more humanities subjects that she could’ve taken to fill up her courseload is telling of the fact that the system doesn’t really support the humanities.
So she took KI - Econ - Lit (or perhaps ELL) - One of History/Geo (don't believe you can take both)?

There's more flexibility if you can take one of the H2 Foreign Languages or the Chinese heavy classes like CLL, CSC, or TRC, but again this is going to be a very small subset of the student population (and some Chinese related ones only offered at certain JCs).
Nope, she took history, Econ, Lit and KI. At her school, and I believe most others, you can’t take both Lit and ELL, or History and Geog concurrently, so she had to pick between each of these. Ultimately, she doesn’t have any regrets and I don’t either as I believe it offered her the best chance of doing well at the A-levels, while also nurturing her personal interests. It was a very rare subject combi though, as not taking math or science was something only two kids in the whole level (including her) were approved to do. Main reasons for this are concerns that the school has about kids managing the heavy workload, since there is so much reading and writing to be done, as well as concerns about kids not doing well in KI as it is considered to be one of the more challenging subjects one can offer in JC, so much so that it doubles as a contrasting subject whether you take science or arts.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:48 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:43 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:32 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 7:18 pm

I think some of the students are being distributed around a bit more every year too. ACS(I) via the IB is gaining popularity, and ACS(I) / MGS IP seem to have a strong following. Eunoia JC has also gone through four cycles of A Level results now and this (2022) is the third year of intake where students are all at the new campus. The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS trio has probably gained/retained some students because of this (some of their primary kids still go elsewhere if they can). Years back, some were hesitant about committing to the IP programme because there was no track record at EJC. But I don't think this is an open question anymore, as the result have been pretty good. Nanyang JC JAE COP has also dropped a lot over the years too (5 points now), it seems every popular among the O level to JC kids.
I am curious, where did those from these three schools go for JC before Eunoia?
The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS IP has always gone to Eunoia. They were among the later IP programmes to start up (more came online at this time too, so it's not like they were the only one); the first Sec 1 intake should have been 2013 for JC2 in 2018.
Oh! I’d always assumed the IP had been up and running at these schools for decades. Am I right to assume, then, that before they were purely O level schools?

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:57 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:48 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:43 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:32 pm


I am curious, where did those from these three schools go for JC before Eunoia?
The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS IP has always gone to Eunoia. They were among the later IP programmes to start up (more came online at this time too, so it's not like they were the only one); the first Sec 1 intake should have been 2013 for JC2 in 2018.
Oh! I’d always assumed the IP had been up and running at these schools for decades. Am I right to assume, then, that before they were purely O level schools?
Yes, should have been. I think RI and HCI were first, shortly followed by Dunman High and River Valley High. NJC was somewhere after that, and then in the 2012-2013 timeframe the three above, ACS(I)/MGS, Victoria/Cedar, SJI, and Temasek JC joined. SOTA and NUSH are also technically included here, although they are a bit different type of school.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 11:21 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:57 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:48 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 10:43 pm

The SNGS-Cat High-SCGS IP has always gone to Eunoia. They were among the later IP programmes to start up (more came online at this time too, so it's not like they were the only one); the first Sec 1 intake should have been 2013 for JC2 in 2018.
Oh! I’d always assumed the IP had been up and running at these schools for decades. Am I right to assume, then, that before they were purely O level schools?
Yes, should have been. I think RI and HCI were first, shortly followed by Dunman High and River Valley High. NJC was somewhere after that, and then in the 2012-2013 timeframe the three above, ACS(I)/MGS, Victoria/Cedar, SJI, and Temasek JC joined. SOTA and NUSH are also technically included here, although they are a bit different type of school.
Just did a quick search, apparently the raffles IP program was established in 2004. That’s a lot later than I had in mind, I initially thought it was in the late 90s.

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by malcontent » Sun, 31 Jul 2022 11:54 pm

Incidentally, my daughter’s friend who got in via DSA (and inspired her to target this top secondary school and get into their IP) eventually dropped back to O-level, while my daughter pressed on. IP has uncompromisingly rigorous academic requirements, and I believe that contributed to my daughter’s over the top study habits — she claims her classmates do the same thing.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Mon, 01 Aug 2022 12:06 am

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 11:54 pm
Incidentally, my daughter’s friend who got in via DSA (and inspired her to target this top secondary school and get into their IP) eventually dropped back to O-level, while my daughter pressed on. IP has uncompromisingly rigorous academic requirements, and I believe that contributed to my daughter’s over the top study habits — she claims her classmates do the same thing.
Don’t doubt it, the kids in the IP are of a different breed, they work behind closed doors (the term they use in school as closet mugger).

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Mon, 01 Aug 2022 5:48 am

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 31 Jul 2022 11:54 pm
Incidentally, my daughter’s friend who got in via DSA (and inspired her to target this top secondary school and get into their IP) eventually dropped back to O-level, while my daughter pressed on. IP has uncompromisingly rigorous academic requirements, and I believe that contributed to my daughter’s over the top study habits — she claims her classmates do the same thing.
Some of the schools have more stringent promotion criteria than the others. First, is the absolute average percentage needed (whether GPA or MSG), although this assumes the paper difficulty and grading are the same (which they are probably not that different). Second, is whether the all of the subjects are required to go into the calculation or if something like L2R5 or L2M1S1H1R1 are used.

Per Lisa's comments above, the two Raffles schools have had an "easier" (on paper) promotion criteria, both by the level and the subjects in the calculation (not that this makes things easier day to day). But I believe it has also been in place to keep everyone (or more) in the system, and encourage kids to take other classes besides the ones they know they can score in. Whether it has actually had any impact, I'm not sure.

I think some of the other schools have relaxed the IP promotion criteria a bit in the last year.

Hope your daughter's friend did well at the O levels. Not an easy journey for the ones that get tagged and moved around (unfortunately).

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by malcontent » Mon, 01 Aug 2022 10:29 am

Back in HS, I had a totally different mindset. I did not care what I scored, and that was reflected in my results. I dropped out of the academic stream and took the vocational stream… mainly because my last two years of HS would be half days; for the morning half they would bus us over to a vocational school and there was zero study there, all hands on. While I did take the ACT with the rest of my HS class, my results were not stellar. The question I have to ask myself, did any of this have an long-term effect on my outcome? I have to say honestly, no. When I got into community college, I quickly caught up and by my final year of university I was making the dean’s list. I credit that not to hard work, but taking a full roster of classes that I was actually interested in. Yes, I may be the exception to the rule, but I always knew I had it in me… whether I worked hard or not, it was going to happen. This is why I always say, the cream rises to the top, some bits a little slower than others, but the destination is the same. And while I’m not top brass, I’ve certainly done better than the vast majority of my HS class, despite doing far worse that them back in those days. I have no regrets and wouldn’t change a thing.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Mon, 01 Aug 2022 11:33 am

malcontent wrote:
Mon, 01 Aug 2022 10:29 am
Back in HS, I had a totally different mindset. I did not care what I scored, and that was reflected in my results. I dropped out of the academic stream and took the vocational stream… mainly because my last two years of HS would be half days; for the morning half they would bus us over to a vocational school and there was zero study there, all hands on. While I did take the ACT with the rest of my HS class, my results were not stellar. The question I have to ask myself, did any of this have an long-term effect on my outcome? I have to say honestly, no. When I got into community college, I quickly caught up and by my final year of university I was making the dean’s list. I credit that not to hard work, but taking a full roster of classes that I was actually interested in. Yes, I may be the exception to the rule, but I always knew I had it in me… whether I worked hard or not, it was going to happen. This is why I always say, the cream rises to the top, some bits a little slower than others, but the destination is the same. And while I’m not the top brass, I’ve certainly done better than the vast majority of my HS class, despite doing far worse that them back in those days. I have no regrets and wouldn’t change a thing.
I don't disagree, there are hardly any jobs that require top mark subject knowledge across 8-10 subjects. You need to know a bit about what you are actually doing, and have drive/resilience/people skills to get things done. Some people from Harvard couldn't run a lemonade stand if their life depended on it. But they could write a 100 page paper about how to theoretically do it.

The sheer size and geographical differences of the US economy have ensured there are many great opportunities without top "credential" education. At it's core, the fundamentals of what you say are still true, although I do believe the odds of things or the range of opportunities have shifted over time there. You likely graduated (I'm guessing 25-30 years ago) when fewer people "invested" in education. Even though you did it later, you still did it. Now, these people are everywhere. I'm not suggesting that fundamentally what you describe isn't true anymore, but I think you also need to recognize time hasn't stayed still either.

In summary, any educational track/starting point is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition to guarantee success (or more broadly happiness). Many that fly high early are surpassed later on. But there is a spectrum of what options people have along the way, and for better or worse some of these have a strong mapping to educational achievements. Whether any one individual thinks it matters enough or is worth it to pursue this or that is up to them.

Edit: If there is a societal error, it is that people correlate or assume a person's skills/ability too much to education. This could be said about the different classes of schools/unis (elite, good, mid, lower, etc) or just the "degree" itself. Many in the West thought there was a very large or infinite return to education. I think the truth was more that smart, driven, and adaptable (= successful) people just happen to get degrees in the early days.

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