Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

[malcontent]

FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.

Honestly, my daughter would probably fit what you describe above for the most part. She doesn’t hate school, she doesn’t hate her classes and if you met her, you’d probably be convinced that she is just another happy kid in Sec/JC who seems to be doing near perfect in all of her subjects.

But what you wouldn’t see is the enormity of time she spends studying, more than 90% of her waking hours outside of school are spent studying (she is doing that right now), and this is fully 7 days a week. She insists that she needs to do this. Is it perfectionism? She claims not, and she did get one B on her mid-terms; it didn’t bother her at all.

Gotcha. I guess the second part is what I don't always see. My close sample with kids ranging from S1 to JC2 has a fair number (not all) that seem to have more time to do other things. If I had to generalize, I think knowing how the kids/parents handled primary school (which one, tuition or not, pressure to hit certain COPs, etc) is highly correlated to how the kids manage themselves and feel in secondary/JC.

It does seem like all of the kids that switch over to the "local international" schools in Secondary like it a lot. They still have a IB score they need to produce in Year 6 and are looking at the same unis. But for whatever reason the atmosphere seems to be much more relaxed (parallel to SAS comments).

I'm not sure where your girl went to primary (and I doubt you pushed her excessively) but perhaps the peer environment upped the ante in Sec 1.

I also believe there is a range of attitudes across the different IP schools (generalizing). Of course, there will be some of each type in every school, but I also think the mix and attitudes vary.

She went to St. Margaret’s for primary, and I actually encouraged her to continue at St. Margaret’s secondary (close to where we live) but she got over 260 on her PSLE and was very determined to switch to a top school which her best friend got into via DSA. She almost didn’t make the cut for IP, but she was determined to get into that as well… she appealed and had to go through an interview, and was accepted. In retrospect, she could have gotten into an even better JC had she not went the IP route, but I actually prefer the lesser school she got.

[NYY1]

She went to St. Margaret’s for primary, and I actually encouraged her to continue at St. Margaret’s secondary (close to where we live) but she got over 260 on her PSLE and was very determined to switch to a top school which her best friend got into via DSA. She almost didn’t make the cut for IP, but she was determined to get into that as well… she appealed and had to go through an interview, and was accepted. In retrospect, she could have gotten into an even better JC had she went the IP route, but I actually prefer the lesser school she got.

Oldest girls' school in Singapore .

There are plenty of cases where kids stay in less demanding environments like the IJs or Crescent Girls', ultimately do very well at the O Level (L1R5 of 2 pts - 4 pts nett), and end up in the same "Wah" JCs. The difference is not only big fish in small pond but I think life is just easier. You bounce around near the top without too much worry, CCA schedules are less demanding, and priorities are just different.

Are there trade-offs? Definitely. One needs to sit for the O level, and the sorted cohorts can help everyone run real fast/become better. But as I mentioned the kids need to learn how to not let this turn into a negative.

Of course, most people won't do the above and I understand why. Not really sure one is universally better and a lot depends on the individual and how they respond.

[malcontent]

She went to St. Margaret’s for primary, and I actually encouraged her to continue at St. Margaret’s secondary (close to where we live) but she got over 260 on her PSLE and was very determined to switch to a top school which her best friend got into via DSA. She almost didn’t make the cut for IP, but she was determined to get into that as well… she appealed and had to go through an interview, and was accepted. In retrospect, she could have gotten into an even better JC had she went the IP route, but I actually prefer the lesser school she got.

Oldest girls' school in Singapore .

There are plenty of cases where kids stay in less demanding environments like the IJs or Crescent Girls', ultimately do very well at the O Level (L1R5 of 2 pts - 4 pts nett), and end up in the same "Wah" JCs. The difference is not only big fish in small pond but I think life is just easier. You bounce around near the top without too much worry, CCA schedules are less demanding, and priorities are just different.

Are there trade-offs? Definitely. One needs to sit for the O level, and the sorted cohorts can help everyone run real fast/become better. But as I mentioned the kids need to learn how to not let this turn into a negative.

Of course, most people won't do the above and I understand why. Not really sure one is universally better and a lot depends on the individual and how they respond.

My daughter reasoned that IP was better because she wouldn’t have to take O levels and in theory that is supposed to leave room to broaden their education, which she wanted. In reality, I’m not sure she really got that much more out of IP versus O level. She still had to take tests, just not O level. I was also surprised that she got an official cert for completing secondary. That document is actually enough to skip JC and go straight to university in the US — but not a UC school, which is what she claims to want.

To me, it really doesn’t matter which school she ends up in. I spent my first two years at a community college before transferring to a modestly ranked University, and I have no regrets whatsoever — it was a great experience and I got a great education. What matters is what you do with it after you graduate, how you learn and grow from there.

[Lisafuller]

I find this view pretty reductive. It’s almost impossible to control what you think when everybody around you thinks a certain way, it’s not easy to remove yourself from the system. You have to play the game.

Well, I guess that's the difference between those that know how to be happy wherever they are and those that get sucked into the system, wherever they are.

Easy? Perhaps not. Impossible? Definitely not that either.

You have to remember that these are kids, they’re highly impressionable and easily influenced by their environments. You don’t seem to acknowledge this.

[Lisafuller]

There are kids that qualified for so called top schools by scoring 260+ (old PSLE system) with no tuition. There are also kids that get there by taking multiple tuitions, sometimes even all four classes. Similarly, there are kids that maintain high ranking GPAs/MSGs in secondary school by revising forever. And there are kids that rank there by doing all the work (which takes time) but not much else.

And there are kids that know it's OK not to get an A or A1 in a subject or two. Or kids that qualified for any school but elected to go elsewhere.

All of this plays into how stressful or how enjoyable secondary and JC life is.

I understand why there is a race. There's only so many spots in local medicine/law/computer science and prestigious overseas universities, etc.

But in the end it's whether the individual allows themselves to be all consumed by the process or not.

The kids you’re describing, those who are at the very top with seemingly no effort, pretty much don’t exist. At some point, everybody has to put in the work. Even if you’re some sort of prodigy, there is so much to do that it’s impossible to get by without putting in some time and effort.

I didn't say no effort. All the kids have to do the homework, which takes time [edit] and there are ebbs and flows around projects and exam schedules that demand more effort and time [end edit]. But there's a difference between doing that (a couple hours a day) and studying non-stop / fretting over one lower mark / etc. Again, exactly how they entered, where they entered, and what their attitude is in Secondary/JC all play a role.

Edit: Are these kids the majority or typical? Probably not. But per above and before there are multiple ways a kid can have a more enjoyable school life.

I get it. My daughter is probably as close as you can get to the type of kid you’re describing. In spite of the fact that she went to an incredibly competitive school, she never really sweat the small stuff, and would only really study nearing exam periods. This carried on through JC where she didn’t really care what her grades were until it was time for the A-levels. Still, by the system. At times, it became clear that she herself was starting to get a little overwhelmed, no matter how easy-going she was.

[Lisafuller]

Regardless, I'm sure she'll do well in the long-run. I guess there's 1.5 more years to go, so just try to enjoy what's left. Personally, I believe these highly sorted cohorts (elsewhere in Asia besides Singapore) can be very powerful, but the kids need to learn how to manage themselves. Uni is really an extension of the same; all high achievers competing for certain jobs, so hopefully take this time to understand how to get the most out of oneself within reason and remain happy/find joy in other things besides the papers.

Regards...

Again, I have to disagree. A lot of times in the US the hardest part is getting in to a good college, once you do, things get a lot easier. In singapore, it’s the opposite. Come from a good JC and you will definitely make your way in to NUS, but once you’re there, the workload becomes just as heavy as it was in JC, and then some.

Largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish in the US uni. State school, get a job at one of many nearby good companies? Not too hard, just look at the placement statistics.

Higher end university, only want one of a few jobs across the country at the most prestigious firms/industries? Not much will change. These firms all receive piles of applications just like the universities themselves. Just like HS to uni, the competition won't be solely on grades, but the fact that there's limited spaces and a lot of people trying to grab a seat means those who want that will have to compete.

What I’m referring to is the ease of doing well once you’ve gotten into the school. You can just look at the grading systems at Harvard versus Boston University for example. It’s much easier to get into BU but once you do it’s incredibly difficult to score well, contrast that with Harvard where it is much much much tougher to get in but once you do A’s are the norm. Not saying that the kids don’t work for them, but in general it is easier.

[Lisafuller]

In SAS a small minority of kids always get top results and really strive for it, but there is no broad peer pressure. Up to 8th grade there are no grades, only ratings like: did not meet, approaching, met, exceeded. Most kids at SAS are content as long as they get met, and even those who don’t get met the first time will get the opportunity to re-do the work and get met, and the vast majority do. There is no stigma around this.

I don’t know any kids at top local schools are able to avoid the extreme workload, even if they are gifted, it’s still a lot of work and my daughter is often having conference calls with them into the wee hours. Maybe those special few who don’t need to study exist, but it’s few (if any) from what I’ve seen at my daughter’s school. Maybe because she is also in the top class at a top school? I can tell you that we don’t push her at all - in fact we tell her grades aren’t everything and encourage her to relax… but it doesn’t help… it is all about the system she is in — the peer pressure.

That system sounds awesome! I do wish that more schools in Singapore I would adopt an approach that moves away from tests and grades. I’m sure this is easier said than done, but it would be nice if more kids could share this experience.

The issue is this. Will people accept when there is a ballot for certain schools with 2x, 5x, 10x the number of applicants vs. vacancy? One can reduce the standards or qualifying threshold so that the race isn't so extreme but lottery entry is what results. With the new PSLE system, there is more balloting as each AL band encompasses a lot more students (i.e. many students meet the COP but don't get it) so people are starting to understand and live with the concept.

I actually don't know what system is better (strict cutoff, ballot, huge ballot). All have pros and cons, and there are various secondary impacts beyond just admission. But everything has tradeoffs.

BTW, the approach away from tests and grades is being adopted. Local law and med are also diversifying their intake. It's still early days but more than that many students and parents just don't want to listen to the message yet (unfortunately).

What do you mean local law in med are diversifying their intake? My daughter’s best friends just attended the in US law inauguration ceremony today, and it was practically a Raffles alum reunion.

[Lisafuller]

FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.

There really isn’t much of a choice, at raffles it was very normal to fail and fail and fail, the kids would fail so much that they’d get very used to it, constantly working hard only to be left very discouraged. These kids were the same kids who were involved in CCA, but also were the kids who only focused on academics, so how do we explain this?

[Lisafuller]

That's probably why there are more school age jumpers in recent years - the happiness stress free factor---
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/c ... -year-year

Definitely. Even though we rarely see it covered or discussed in the media, you’d be shocked by the figures.

[Lisafuller]

FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.

Honestly, my daughter would probably fit what you describe above for the most part. She doesn’t hate school, she doesn’t hate her classes and if you met her, you’d probably be convinced that she is just another happy kid in Sec/JC who seems to be doing near perfect in all of her subjects.

But what you wouldn’t see is the enormity of time she spends studying, more than 90% of her waking hours outside of school are spent studying (she is doing that right now), and this is fully 7 days a week. She insists that she needs to do this. Is it perfectionism? She claims not, and she did get one B on her mid-terms; it didn’t bother her at all.

This would make your daughter the norm, albeit higher performing. Nobody does anything to change this high-pressure system because they refuse to acknowledge the crazy amount of stress and work that goes into getting these results, they just focus on the results themselves.

[Lisafuller]

That's probably why there are more school age jumpers in recent years - the happiness stress free factor---
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/c ... -year-year

Yeah, unfortunately the 10-19 age group increased from 30 to 37 in 2021 .

US tends to use different age buckets but at times has released 10-14 and 15-19 age data. Sadly, the rate per 100,000 there has been going up over time too (probably about 4 per 100,000 in 2000-2007 to about 7 per 100,000 in 2017. They don't give the same data from 2018 onwards but generally the youth rate has been increasing)

Not saying life is perfect but there are plenty of kids that manage secondary school and JC and are happy. More and more, there's a group that realizes they don't need to compete grades grades grades.

Yeah, I’m sure there are Covid related factors that contribute to this, social isolation in particular. And I do agree that more and more kids are starting to make the conscious effort to remove themselves from the system, but it’s unfortunate because we all know that not playing the game means they can no longer win, winning in this case meaning going to a good college and getting good grades.

[Lisafuller]

FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.

Honestly, my daughter would probably fit what you describe above for the most part. She doesn’t hate school, she doesn’t hate her classes and if you met her, you’d probably be convinced that she is just another happy kid in Sec/JC who seems to be doing near perfect in all of her subjects.

But what you wouldn’t see is the enormity of time she spends studying, more than 90% of her waking hours outside of school are spent studying (she is doing that right now), and this is fully 7 days a week. She insists that she needs to do this. Is it perfectionism? She claims not, and she did get one B on her mid-terms; it didn’t bother her at all.

Gotcha. I guess the second part is what I don't always see. My close sample with kids ranging from S1 to JC2 has a fair number (not all) that seem to have more time to do other things. If I had to generalize, I think knowing how the kids/parents handled primary school (which one, tuition or not, pressure to hit certain COPs, etc) is highly correlated to how the kids manage themselves and feel in secondary/JC.

It does seem like all of the kids that switch over to the "local international" schools in Secondary like it a lot. They still have a IB score they need to produce in Year 6 and are looking at the same unis. But for whatever reason the atmosphere seems to be much more relaxed (parallel to SAS comments).

I'm not sure where your girl went to primary (and I doubt you pushed her excessively) but perhaps the peer environment upped the ante in Sec 1.

I also believe there is a range of attitudes across the different IP schools (generalizing). Of course, there will be some of each type in every school, but I also think the mix and attitudes vary.

You’re right, no matter which school you choose to focus on there are bound to be all types of kids, those who care and those who don’t, those who got in by COP and those who DSAed in and only care about sports.

[Lisafuller]

Honestly, my daughter would probably fit what you describe above for the most part. She doesn’t hate school, she doesn’t hate her classes and if you met her, you’d probably be convinced that she is just another happy kid in Sec/JC who seems to be doing near perfect in all of her subjects.

But what you wouldn’t see is the enormity of time she spends studying, more than 90% of her waking hours outside of school are spent studying (she is doing that right now), and this is fully 7 days a week. She insists that she needs to do this. Is it perfectionism? She claims not, and she did get one B on her mid-terms; it didn’t bother her at all.

Gotcha. I guess the second part is what I don't always see. My close sample with kids ranging from S1 to JC2 has a fair number (not all) that seem to have more time to do other things. If I had to generalize, I think knowing how the kids/parents handled primary school (which one, tuition or not, pressure to hit certain COPs, etc) is highly correlated to how the kids manage themselves and feel in secondary/JC.

It does seem like all of the kids that switch over to the "local international" schools in Secondary like it a lot. They still have a IB score they need to produce in Year 6 and are looking at the same unis. But for whatever reason the atmosphere seems to be much more relaxed (parallel to SAS comments).

I'm not sure where your girl went to primary (and I doubt you pushed her excessively) but perhaps the peer environment upped the ante in Sec 1.

I also believe there is a range of attitudes across the different IP schools (generalizing). Of course, there will be some of each type in every school, but I also think the mix and attitudes vary.

She went to St. Margaret’s for primary, and I actually encouraged her to continue at St. Margaret’s secondary (close to where we live) but she got over 260 on her PSLE and was very determined to switch to a top school which her best friend got into via DSA. She almost didn’t make the cut for IP, but she was determined to get into that as well… she appealed and had to go through an interview, and was accepted. In retrospect, she could have gotten into an even better JC had she not went the IP route, but I actually prefer the lesser school she got.

If you don’t mind me asking, where does she go now? I’m guessing NJC.

[Lisafuller]

She went to St. Margaret’s for primary, and I actually encouraged her to continue at St. Margaret’s secondary (close to where we live) but she got over 260 on her PSLE and was very determined to switch to a top school which her best friend got into via DSA. She almost didn’t make the cut for IP, but she was determined to get into that as well… she appealed and had to go through an interview, and was accepted. In retrospect, she could have gotten into an even better JC had she went the IP route, but I actually prefer the lesser school she got.

Oldest girls' school in Singapore .

There are plenty of cases where kids stay in less demanding environments like the IJs or Crescent Girls', ultimately do very well at the O Level (L1R5 of 2 pts - 4 pts nett), and end up in the same "Wah" JCs. The difference is not only big fish in small pond but I think life is just easier. You bounce around near the top without too much worry, CCA schedules are less demanding, and priorities are just different.

Are there trade-offs? Definitely. One needs to sit for the O level, and the sorted cohorts can help everyone run real fast/become better. But as I mentioned the kids need to learn how to not let this turn into a negative.

Of course, most people won't do the above and I understand why. Not really sure one is universally better and a lot depends on the individual and how they respond.

I’d say that in most cases, going through the IP is the best option. You have a guaranteed place at a relatively reputable JC, and know that consequently you can spend your secondary school years a little more relaxed and with a little more academic freedom since not every decision you make is made with the all levels in mind. The trade-off is that you will have your highest educational qualification be the PSLE until you complete the A levels, which isn’t a problem for most but in rare cases students do drop out before finishing, which leaves them in a very tough position.

[Lisafuller]

She went to St. Margaret’s for primary, and I actually encouraged her to continue at St. Margaret’s secondary (close to where we live) but she got over 260 on her PSLE and was very determined to switch to a top school which her best friend got into via DSA. She almost didn’t make the cut for IP, but she was determined to get into that as well… she appealed and had to go through an interview, and was accepted. In retrospect, she could have gotten into an even better JC had she went the IP route, but I actually prefer the lesser school she got.

Oldest girls' school in Singapore .

There are plenty of cases where kids stay in less demanding environments like the IJs or Crescent Girls', ultimately do very well at the O Level (L1R5 of 2 pts - 4 pts nett), and end up in the same "Wah" JCs. The difference is not only big fish in small pond but I think life is just easier. You bounce around near the top without too much worry, CCA schedules are less demanding, and priorities are just different.

Are there trade-offs? Definitely. One needs to sit for the O level, and the sorted cohorts can help everyone run real fast/become better. But as I mentioned the kids need to learn how to not let this turn into a negative.

Of course, most people won't do the above and I understand why. Not really sure one is universally better and a lot depends on the individual and how they respond.

My daughter reasoned that IP was better because she wouldn’t have to take O levels and in theory that is supposed to leave room to broaden their education, which she wanted. In reality, I’m not sure she really got that much more out of IP versus O level. She still had to take tests, just not O level. I was also surprised that she got an official cert for completing secondary. That document is actually enough to skip JC and go straight to university in the US — but not a UC school, which is what she claims to want.

To me, it really doesn’t matter which school she ends up in. I spent my first two years at a community college before transferring to a modestly ranked University, and I have no regrets whatsoever — it was a great experience and I got a great education. What matters is what you do with it after you graduate, how you learn and grow from there.

You’re absolutely right. And seriously? You can use the certificate to skip JC? I wish I had known this two years ago, my daughter would be a sophomore by now.