Singapore Expats

Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Interested to get your child into a local Primary School? Discuss the opportunities here.
Post Reply
Lisafuller
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
Answers: 3

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:33 am

NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 11:55 am
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 10:50 am
NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 7:26 am
One thing I think many here don't understand is how competitive the US system is. Undoubtedly, on average it is a less test driven system and there are more kids that do what they like on a day to day basis. They finish HS and go to whatever uni they can get into.

But those kids exist here too! It's largely one's own mindset and who they associate with whether they need to chase the next level/rung of schools or programmes.

What is true is that the kids there aiming for the elite US universities are largely playing the same game as the top students here. Tons of AP courses, extracurriculars, etc, etc. Some attributes the US focuses on may be better in the long run, but the race is much the same if you chose to enter.

All of the kids I know that got into Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, etc were all under a lot of pressure and stress in the teenage years until the offer letter arrived. It's just that the competition is different as near perfect marks and a high SAT score don't give you much of a chance anymore (perhaps no chance). These are a baseline/expected requirement that everyone has.

So in the end it's not the system but how we decide to play the game and what we value.
Yes, the US education system is cut throat competitive at the tippy top… but that’s not what most people are striving for in the US, so I don’t know what you mean by baseline/expected requirement that everyone has. Who is everyone?
The point is your kid seems to care a lot about what schools she's in, what class she's in (ie top), etc. With this mindset, she will feel the same anywhere (trying for ivy, ivy+, UC etc).

Options? Accept not being in the top class. Go to a less demanding school. There are plenty of kids here that are not at the top and don't feel pressure. There are also kids in the top schools that aren't worried about their ranking vs peers and they don't feel pressure (and have time for other interests).

Students in both places can have the same mentality. It can either be die die must go here, must be this, etc. Or, you can go to school, do your best, and be happy with it.

You can't control the environment around you but you can control what you think.

Edit: "Everyone" is the kids applying to Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, etc. Near perfect grades and high SAT scores are a commodity for this group.
I find this view pretty reductive. It’s almost impossible to control what you think when everybody around you thinks a certain way, it’s not easy to remove yourself from the system. You have to play the game.

Lisafuller
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
Answers: 3

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:41 am

NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 12:30 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 9:52 am
I don’t know any kids at top local schools are able to avoid the extreme workload, even if they are gifted, it’s still a lot of work and my daughter is often having conference calls with them into the wee hours. Maybe those special few who don’t need to study exist, but it’s few (if any) from what I’ve seen at my daughter’s school. Maybe because she is also in the top class at a top school? I can tell you that we don’t push her at all - in fact we tell her grades aren’t everything and encourage her to relax… but it doesn’t help… it is all about the system she is in — the peer pressure.
There are kids that qualified for so called top schools by scoring 260+ (old PSLE system) with no tuition. There are also kids that get there by taking multiple tuitions, sometimes even all four classes. Similarly, there are kids that maintain high ranking GPAs/MSGs in secondary school by revising forever. And there are kids that rank there by doing all the work (which takes time) but not much else.

And there are kids that know it's OK not to get an A or A1 in a subject or two. Or kids that qualified for any school but elected to go elsewhere.

All of this plays into how stressful or how enjoyable secondary and JC life is.

I understand why there is a race. There's only so many spots in local medicine/law/computer science and prestigious overseas universities, etc.

But in the end it's whether the individual allows themselves to be all consumed by the process or not.
The kids you’re describing, those who are at the very top with seemingly no effort, pretty much don’t exist. At some point, everybody has to put in the work. Even if you’re some sort of prodigy, there is so much to do that it’s impossible to get by without putting in some time and effort.

Lisafuller
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
Answers: 3

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:44 am

malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 4:25 pm
Yes, my daughter is consumed by it… despite our telling her not to be. It’s what she cares about, it’s what she wants. But the real question is, would she care and want it so much if she was attending SAS?

To this, I have to say no. Different atmosphere, expectations, outlook, peer group and focus… the pressure just isn’t there. My daughter is motivated by competition, and there just isn’t nearly as much at SAS. That is just a fact. Would she be as academically strong as she is today? Certainly not. Would she be less stressed and more well rounded than today? She certainly would.
Right. And chances are, she would still get into a fairly high ranking school in the US. In addition to considering your standardized test scores colleges also consider your transcripts, made up of the grades that you receive while in school. A system like SAS that not only provides fairly ambiguous grades, but also has a slightly easier and more lenient scoring system makes candidates look a lot more impressive, while giving them the space and flexibility to spend their time in a more holistic manner.

Lisafuller
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
Answers: 3

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:47 am

NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 6:51 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 4:25 pm
Yes, my daughter is consumed by it… despite our telling her not to be. It’s what she cares about, it’s what she wants. But the real question is, would she care and want it so much if she was attending SAS?

To this, I have to say no. Different atmosphere, expectations, outlook, peer group and focus… the pressure just isn’t there. My daughter is motivated by competition, and there just isn’t nearly as much at SAS. That is just a fact. Would she be as academically strong as she is today? Certainly not. Would she be less stressed and more well rounded than today? She certainly would.
Regardless, I'm sure she'll do well in the long-run. I guess there's 1.5 more years to go, so just try to enjoy what's left. Personally, I believe these highly sorted cohorts (elsewhere in Asia besides Singapore) can be very powerful, but the kids need to learn how to manage themselves. Uni is really an extension of the same; all high achievers competing for certain jobs, so hopefully take this time to understand how to get the most out of oneself within reason and remain happy/find joy in other things besides the papers.

Regards...
Again, I have to disagree. A lot of times in the US the hardest part is getting in to a good college, once you do, things get a lot easier. In singapore, it’s the opposite. Come from a good JC and you will definitely make your way in to NUS, but once you’re there, the workload becomes just as heavy as it was in JC, and then some.

Lisafuller
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
Answers: 3

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:52 am

malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 9:00 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 6:51 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 4:25 pm
Yes, my daughter is consumed by it… despite our telling her not to be. It’s what she cares about, it’s what she wants. But the real question is, would she care and want it so much if she was attending SAS?

To this, I have to say no. Different atmosphere, expectations, outlook, peer group and focus… the pressure just isn’t there. My daughter is motivated by competition, and there just isn’t nearly as much at SAS. That is just a fact. Would she be as academically strong as she is today? Certainly not. Would she be less stressed and more well rounded than today? She certainly would.
Regardless, I'm sure she'll do well in the long-run. I guess there's 1.5 more years to go, so just try to enjoy what's left. Personally, I believe these highly sorted cohorts (elsewhere in Asia besides Singapore) can be very powerful, but the kids need to learn how to manage themselves. Uni is really an extension of the same; all high achievers competing for certain jobs, so hopefully take this time to understand how to get the most out of oneself within reason and remain happy/find joy in other things besides the papers.

Regards...
We are trying to get her to enjoy it, but alas, she is studying as I type this, and will be doing so until I go to bed. This will repeat again tomorrow and the next day… and repeat again next week. She has learned how to manage herself and her time, but is that enough?

I certainly haven’t seen high achieving graduates from top universities getting all of the top positions in companies. Not sure where that idea comes from, but it certainly would be a wrong expectation on their part. While it might get their foot in the door, but their career progression depends much more on soft skills than academics. I’ve seen this play out countless times at my employer. Being smart just isn’t enough, in fact, it can get in the way. The one thing I have seen time and time again, the cream always rises to the top, no matter what the alma mater.
Exactly. While there are some professions that recruit exclusively from certain schools, I’ve noticed that most employers are moving away from not very updated style of thinking. Often times, even those who choose to recruit from certain schools only do so as a means of saving time because they believe that most of the screening has been done for them. Now, it’s attitude, soft skills and experience that matter.

Lisafuller
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6211
Joined: Sat, 07 Nov 2020 11:45 pm
Answers: 3

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by Lisafuller » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:54 am

NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 9:13 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 9:00 pm
I certainly haven’t seen high achieving graduates from top universities getting all of the top positions in companies. Not sure where that idea comes from, but it certainly would be a wrong expectation on their part. While it might get their foot in the door, but their career progression depends much more on soft skills than academics. I’ve seen this play out countless times at my employer. Being smart just isn’t enough, in fact, it can get in the way. The one thing I have seen time and time again, the cream always rises to the top, no matter what the alma mater.
The foot in the door part is what I meant about the continued race/competition in uni for post university placement. Still, I 100% agree with what you write about progression.

The good thing is many smart kids will learn how to deal with this when they start working. They may have to learn the hard way once but it is not an uncommon issue to deal with or overcome. All that being said, I do believe there is a push to get the kids to realize this earlier and develop the non-academic skills more in school. Some parents that grew up in the highly sorted systems have realized the above and are trying to make life and the progression easier for their kids than it was for them.
Yup, the best thing we can do is parents is to try to circumvent the flaws of the system by helping to make sure our kids have a more holistic upbringing, so they don’t grow up narrowminded and sheltered to the realities of the world.

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 6:12 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:33 am
I find this view pretty reductive. It’s almost impossible to control what you think when everybody around you thinks a certain way, it’s not easy to remove yourself from the system. You have to play the game.
Well, I guess that's the difference between those that know how to be happy wherever they are and those that get sucked into the system, wherever they are.

Easy? Perhaps not. Impossible? Definitely not that either.

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 6:17 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:41 am
NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 12:30 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 9:52 am
I don’t know any kids at top local schools are able to avoid the extreme workload, even if they are gifted, it’s still a lot of work and my daughter is often having conference calls with them into the wee hours. Maybe those special few who don’t need to study exist, but it’s few (if any) from what I’ve seen at my daughter’s school. Maybe because she is also in the top class at a top school? I can tell you that we don’t push her at all - in fact we tell her grades aren’t everything and encourage her to relax… but it doesn’t help… it is all about the system she is in — the peer pressure.
There are kids that qualified for so called top schools by scoring 260+ (old PSLE system) with no tuition. There are also kids that get there by taking multiple tuitions, sometimes even all four classes. Similarly, there are kids that maintain high ranking GPAs/MSGs in secondary school by revising forever. And there are kids that rank there by doing all the work (which takes time) but not much else.

And there are kids that know it's OK not to get an A or A1 in a subject or two. Or kids that qualified for any school but elected to go elsewhere.

All of this plays into how stressful or how enjoyable secondary and JC life is.

I understand why there is a race. There's only so many spots in local medicine/law/computer science and prestigious overseas universities, etc.

But in the end it's whether the individual allows themselves to be all consumed by the process or not.
The kids you’re describing, those who are at the very top with seemingly no effort, pretty much don’t exist. At some point, everybody has to put in the work. Even if you’re some sort of prodigy, there is so much to do that it’s impossible to get by without putting in some time and effort.
I didn't say no effort. All the kids have to do the homework, which takes time [edit] and there are ebbs and flows around projects and exam schedules that demand more effort and time [end edit]. But there's a difference between doing that (a couple hours a day) and studying non-stop / fretting over one lower mark / etc. Again, exactly how they entered, where they entered, and what their attitude is in Secondary/JC all play a role.

Edit: Are these kids the majority or typical? Probably not. But per above and before there are multiple ways a kid can have a more enjoyable school life.
Last edited by NYY1 on Sat, 30 Jul 2022 6:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 6:20 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:47 am
NYY1 wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 6:51 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 4:25 pm
Yes, my daughter is consumed by it… despite our telling her not to be. It’s what she cares about, it’s what she wants. But the real question is, would she care and want it so much if she was attending SAS?

To this, I have to say no. Different atmosphere, expectations, outlook, peer group and focus… the pressure just isn’t there. My daughter is motivated by competition, and there just isn’t nearly as much at SAS. That is just a fact. Would she be as academically strong as she is today? Certainly not. Would she be less stressed and more well rounded than today? She certainly would.
Regardless, I'm sure she'll do well in the long-run. I guess there's 1.5 more years to go, so just try to enjoy what's left. Personally, I believe these highly sorted cohorts (elsewhere in Asia besides Singapore) can be very powerful, but the kids need to learn how to manage themselves. Uni is really an extension of the same; all high achievers competing for certain jobs, so hopefully take this time to understand how to get the most out of oneself within reason and remain happy/find joy in other things besides the papers.

Regards...
Again, I have to disagree. A lot of times in the US the hardest part is getting in to a good college, once you do, things get a lot easier. In singapore, it’s the opposite. Come from a good JC and you will definitely make your way in to NUS, but once you’re there, the workload becomes just as heavy as it was in JC, and then some.
Largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish in the US uni. State school, get a job at one of many nearby good companies? Not too hard, just look at the placement statistics.

Higher end university, only want one of a few jobs across the country at the most prestigious firms/industries? Not much will change. These firms all receive piles of applications just like the universities themselves. Just like HS to uni, the competition won't be solely on grades, but the fact that there's limited spaces and a lot of people trying to grab a seat means those who want that will have to compete.

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 12:00 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:29 am
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 29 Jul 2022 9:52 am
In SAS a small minority of kids always get top results and really strive for it, but there is no broad peer pressure. Up to 8th grade there are no grades, only ratings like: did not meet, approaching, met, exceeded. Most kids at SAS are content as long as they get met, and even those who don’t get met the first time will get the opportunity to re-do the work and get met, and the vast majority do. There is no stigma around this.

I don’t know any kids at top local schools are able to avoid the extreme workload, even if they are gifted, it’s still a lot of work and my daughter is often having conference calls with them into the wee hours. Maybe those special few who don’t need to study exist, but it’s few (if any) from what I’ve seen at my daughter’s school. Maybe because she is also in the top class at a top school? I can tell you that we don’t push her at all - in fact we tell her grades aren’t everything and encourage her to relax… but it doesn’t help… it is all about the system she is in — the peer pressure.
That system sounds awesome! I do wish that more schools in Singapore I would adopt an approach that moves away from tests and grades. I’m sure this is easier said than done, but it would be nice if more kids could share this experience.
The issue is this. Will people accept when there is a ballot for certain schools with 2x, 5x, 10x the number of applicants vs. vacancy? One can reduce the standards or qualifying threshold so that the race isn't so extreme but lottery entry is what results. With the new PSLE system, there is more balloting as each AL band encompasses a lot more students (i.e. many students meet the COP but don't get it) so people are starting to understand and live with the concept.

I actually don't know what system is better (strict cutoff, ballot, huge ballot). All have pros and cons, and there are various secondary impacts beyond just admission. But everything has tradeoffs.

BTW, the approach away from tests and grades is being adopted. Local law and med are also diversifying their intake. It's still early days but more than that many students and parents just don't want to listen to the message yet (unfortunately).

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 12:10 pm

FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 40356
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 1:26 pm
Answers: 21
Location: Retired on the Little Red Dot

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:27 pm

That's probably why there are more school age jumpers in recent years - the happiness stress free factor---
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/c ... -year-year
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

User avatar
malcontent
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2604
Joined: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:52 am
Answers: 8
Location: Pulau Ujong

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by malcontent » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 5:40 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 12:10 pm
FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.
Honestly, my daughter would probably fit what you describe above for the most part. She doesn’t hate school, she doesn’t hate her classes and if you met her, you’d probably be convinced that she is just another happy kid in Sec/JC who seems to be doing near perfect in all of her subjects.

But what you wouldn’t see is the enormity of time she spends studying, more than 90% of her waking hours outside of school are spent studying (she is doing that right now), and this is fully 7 days a week. She insists that she needs to do this. Is it perfectionism? She claims not, and she did get one B on her mid-terms; it didn’t bother her at all.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 6:11 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 4:27 pm
That's probably why there are more school age jumpers in recent years - the happiness stress free factor---
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/c ... -year-year
Yeah, unfortunately the 10-19 age group increased from 30 to 37 in 2021 :( .

US tends to use different age buckets but at times has released 10-14 and 15-19 age data. Sadly, the rate per 100,000 there has been going up over time too (probably about 4 per 100,000 in 2000-2007 to about 7 per 100,000 in 2017. They don't give the same data from 2018 onwards but generally the youth rate has been increasing)

Not saying life is perfect but there are plenty of kids that manage secondary school and JC and are happy. More and more, there's a group that realizes they don't need to compete grades grades grades.

NYY1
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 10:41 pm
Answers: 1

Re: Primary 1 registration exercises - game changer

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 30 Jul 2022 6:30 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 5:40 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 30 Jul 2022 12:10 pm
FWIW, the kids I see that are happy in secondary school/JC have very distinct interests in non-academic activities. Could be CCA, leadership/community service, Art Elective Programme, or third lang (treated as hobby, not a class). Some of these kids score perfect, some score near-perfect, and some are middle of the pack but well above the promotion criteria. None are overly worried about precisely where they stand or what their GPA/MSG is in any given term/year. They are literally too busy and too happy doing other things in addition to academics.

Many of them face setbacks but they move on very quickly. And no, they aren't stress free all year long. But they are far from feeling excess stress constantly and hating it.

My guess? These kids find others just like them and everyone enjoys their time together. No doubt an environment may help to breed more or less of a certain kind. But there is always a choice.
Honestly, my daughter would probably fit what you describe above for the most part. She doesn’t hate school, she doesn’t hate her classes and if you met her, you’d probably be convinced that she is just another happy kid in Sec/JC who seems to be doing near perfect in all of her subjects.

But what you wouldn’t see is the enormity of time she spends studying, more than 90% of her waking hours outside of school are spent studying (she is doing that right now), and this is fully 7 days a week. She insists that she needs to do this. Is it perfectionism? She claims not, and she did get one B on her mid-terms; it didn’t bother her at all.
Gotcha. I guess the second part is what I don't always see. My close sample with kids ranging from S1 to JC2 has a fair number (not all) that seem to have more time to do other things. If I had to generalize, I think knowing how the kids/parents handled primary school (which one, tuition or not, pressure to hit certain COPs, etc) is highly correlated to how the kids manage themselves and feel in secondary/JC.

It does seem like all of the kids that switch over to the "local international" schools in Secondary like it a lot. They still have a IB score they need to produce in Year 6 and are looking at the same unis. But for whatever reason the atmosphere seems to be much more relaxed (parallel to SAS comments).

I'm not sure where your girl went to primary (and I doubt you pushed her excessively) but perhaps the peer environment upped the ante in Sec 1.

I also believe there is a range of attitudes across the different IP schools (generalizing). Of course, there will be some of each type in every school, but I also think the mix and attitudes vary.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Primary & Secondary Schools”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests