Planning my move to Singapore

[Lisafuller]

16k per month ?? Already consider good and a lot in SG for workers.

base on your salary can rent a condo in fact still got spare for daily needs even come leisure.
Again every countries are the same come rental. Near central areas will tend to cost more same apply in SG.

weekend trip in SG , maybe you can explore neighbours in SG around simply take MRT which can easy access anywhere.

DO note owning a car in SG is expensive.

Owning a new car in Singapore is expensive. A secondhand car brings costs down dramatically, but not everyone is into that.

Tactically speaking SG is small. You don't need a car to travel around as Public transport is every where around bus and MRT.
Of course if you need to go those far places still wise to take a Taxi.
Side not Private hire actually is expensive than Taxi.

I would say SG is one of the easiest countries to get by without a car, not just because of size, but also because of great connectivity due to the public transport network, as well as the fact that SG is a very walkable city. And while it may seem expensive to take private hire cars every day, the cost is actually less than that of owning your own car. That I definitely agree with you. What I think you've neglected to consider are intangible costs, like lack of convenience, for example having to wait a long time before getting a Grab on a particularly busy or rainy day.

[Lisafuller]

I'm not sure where Mal got his info about daycare having been proven to be ineffective but the quality from preschool brand to preschool brand can certainly vary - and sometimes even within a preschool brand itself. It's best to take your time, do your research online, visit each centre and don't rush into your decision no matter what 'decide-now-deal' you may be offered.

I tried but could not locate the specific study that had proven how kids who attend preschool were only ahead of P1 kids until the end of P1, after that, the non-preschool kids caught up to the others and there was no lasting difference in subsequent grades.

Searching the web today, I see there are many studies, some support one argument and some support the other.

Speaking from personal experience, I believe having enrolled my daughter in preschool made a massive difference in her schooling later on, as it laid a great foundation of knowledge for her. She started going to school way back in nursery when she was three. Learned to speak Mandarin from native Chinese teachers, which helped her greatly in primary school, where she was eventually identified as gifted and set on an accelerated path, along with three of her other friends, who were, interestingly, from the same preschool batch. What's funny is that despite the boys in her preschool going separate ways for primary school, they were all pretty much reunited by the time they were in JC.

You may call this sheer coincidence, but I don't think so.

[Lisafuller]

Thanks for responding to my query. Do expat have an option to rent a HDB flat?

Here is my definition of leading a decent life -

1) 3 bedroom flat (close to the transport that connects you to the main city center / downtown)
2) International School for kids (school following British curriculum)
3) Weekend trips to local attraction and eating out 1-2 times per week (no alcoholic beverages)
4) Public transport / Uber
5) Access to swimming pool / Health clubs

I think the cost for above will give me a good idea about expected monthly expenditure.

I will be earning around 16k per month.

If you’re referring to government flats they’re incredibly small and there are quite a number of hoops you would have to jump through as a foreigner in order to rent. Also there are no facilities or amenities so you would have to purchase a club membership separately. For these reasons it is far more preferable for you to stay in a condo. Other members have given you a more detailed cost breakdown, but generally for a condo of decent build and size you should expect to pay at least $4-5K a month.

Actually Old Government Flats Are spacious than new Flat. Of course I can't judge base on individual lifestyle, etc.

Condo , well yea security guards , Private gym/pool etc inside is a + points but rent obviously will be higher than government flats but so far condo in SG is very small if you prefer big ones obviously are penthouse , top units of course rental will be even higher than getting lower levels.

On Government flats, is more on if you wanna integrate get a " feel " as a local. Neighbourhood coffeeshop, market, public playground/fitness corner etc. Rental side of course cheaper than renting a condo.

Old government flats are definitely larger than the newer ones, but same can be said about condos. The new developments have ridiculously tiny units. I believe condos are ideal for families who are new to SG, it's a great way to have your kids make tons of friends, and convenient as they can play/swim within the complex.

[Lisafuller]

Thanks for responding to my query. Do expat have an option to rent a HDB flat?

Here is my definition of leading a decent life -

1) 3 bedroom flat (close to the transport that connects you to the main city center / downtown)
2) International School for kids (school following British curriculum)
3) Weekend trips to local attraction and eating out 1-2 times per week (no alcoholic beverages)
4) Public transport / Uber
5) Access to swimming pool / Health clubs

I think the cost for above will give me a good idea about expected monthly expenditure.

I will be earning around 16k per month.

Hi, adding to this as I don't think the others brought it up yet:
You'll likely have to add in private tutoring expenses for the kids as well.
I'm spending approx 1k per subject per kid? That's for 1 to 1 tuition though, so it'll be cheaper if you send them to a centre for group tuition. (private lessons are more effective imo)

Oh, I agree with the rest abt condo living. The amenities are included, so it's pretty worth it.

1K per subject per kid? That is exorbitant. I don't think I've ever heard of rates that high, we got our daughter math tuition when she was in secondary school, which was $400 per month for one on one, and later in JC, she got economics tuition, which was also around $400 a month. Typically, costs go up as the level of difficulty increases, so I would say my daughter would have already been on the higher end of the spectrum in terms of cost.

[smoulder]

I'm not sure where Mal got his info about daycare having been proven to be ineffective but the quality from preschool brand to preschool brand can certainly vary - and sometimes even within a preschool brand itself. It's best to take your time, do your research online, visit each centre and don't rush into your decision no matter what 'decide-now-deal' you may be offered.

I tried but could not locate the specific study that had proven how kids who attend preschool were only ahead of P1 kids until the end of P1, after that, the non-preschool kids caught up to the others and there was no lasting difference in subsequent grades.

Searching the web today, I see there are many studies, some support one argument and some support the other.

Speaking from personal experience, I believe having enrolled my daughter in preschool made a massive difference in her schooling later on, as it laid a great foundation of knowledge for her. She started going to school way back in nursery when she was three. Learned to speak Mandarin from native Chinese teachers, which helped her greatly in primary school, where she was eventually identified as gifted and set on an accelerated path, along with three of her other friends, who were, interestingly, from the same preschool batch. What's funny is that despite the boys in her preschool going separate ways for primary school, they were all pretty much reunited by the time they were in JC.

You may call this sheer coincidence, but I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about the part where you say that your daughter did better because of the pre school. Not that I'm entirely dismissing the idea, but just that without solid data to back it up, it remains a hunch.

Personally, I do feel that pre school does have its benefits. Some that I can think of based on my own situation - giving the parents a breather from 24x7 baby sitting and like you mentioned, learning Mandarin from mainland Chinese teachers.

That last one - even though my wife is Chinese and does speak Mandarin fairly well, since we are a multi race family, it would otherwise involve a significant effort on my wife's part to not only speak to my daughter in Mandarin, but also to teach her in a more structured way. As it stands, she is quite confident to speak with her grandma and cousins in Chinese - her pronunciation is quite clear I'm told. Clearer than her cousin who's about 1 year older than her and who has both Chinese speaking parents. The only thing is that she has yet to figure out who speaks English and who speaks Chinese - some times she walks up to her dad (me) and starts speaking in Chinese and demands an answer

In my case, the other benefits I feel are that she gets to interact with more people of around her age which is difficult without siblings and with cousins overseas. Finally, she's also a problem feeder (more advanced issue than picky eater) - seeing other kids eat supposedly helps kids pick up better eating habits; this is according to the feeding experts that we've consulted. That has worked to improve her feeding issues to an extent.

[malcontent]

I am not an expert, but I do believe there are critical things kids need to learn at different stages in life or end up stunted for life. For example, babies in their first year of life are actively watching and learning how to speak by watching mouth movements when people are speaking. If they are deprived of this, they can suffer life-long speech impediments which are hard to overcome. But learning the wrong mouth movements can be harmful too, for example - my helper insisted on practicing her broken English with my kids, and she was with them from birth. It is still having repercussions to this day.

[NYY1]

I tried but could not locate the specific study that had proven how kids who attend preschool were only ahead of P1 kids until the end of P1, after that, the non-preschool kids caught up to the others and there was no lasting difference in subsequent grades.

Searching the web today, I see there are many studies, some support one argument and some support the other.

Speaking from personal experience, I believe having enrolled my daughter in preschool made a massive difference in her schooling later on, as it laid a great foundation of knowledge for her. She started going to school way back in nursery when she was three. Learned to speak Mandarin from native Chinese teachers, which helped her greatly in primary school, where she was eventually identified as gifted and set on an accelerated path, along with three of her other friends, who were, interestingly, from the same preschool batch. What's funny is that despite the boys in her preschool going separate ways for primary school, they were all pretty much reunited by the time they were in JC.

You may call this sheer coincidence, but I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about the part where you say that your daughter did better because of the pre school. Not that I'm entirely dismissing the idea, but just that without solid data to back it up, it remains a hunch.

Personally, I do feel that pre school does have its benefits. Some that I can think of based on my own situation - giving the parents a breather from 24x7 baby sitting and like you mentioned, learning Mandarin from mainland Chinese teachers.

That last one - even though my wife is Chinese and does speak Mandarin fairly well, since we are a multi race family, it would otherwise involve a significant effort on my wife's part to not only speak to my daughter in Mandarin, but also to teach her in a more structured way. As it stands, she is quite confident to speak with her grandma and cousins in Chinese - her pronunciation is quite clear I'm told. Clearer than her cousin who's about 1 year older than her and who has both Chinese speaking parents. The only thing is that she has yet to figure out who speaks English and who speaks Chinese - some times she walks up to her dad (me) and starts speaking in Chinese and demands an answer

In my case, the other benefits I feel are that she gets to interact with more people of around her age which is difficult without siblings and with cousins overseas. Finally, she's also a problem feeder (more advanced issue than picky eater) - seeing other kids eat supposedly helps kids pick up better eating habits; this is according to the feeding experts that we've consulted. That has worked to improve her feeding issues to an extent.

Basically, all of these studies are only so helpful; you can get data or write some report based on whatever you want to tell (believe this is what malcontent posted above).

There are some theories that early development helps kids in that they get more opportunities early on, which means they get more opportunities subsequently, which means they get more opportunities after that, etc, etc (this is not limited to academics and applies to sports too, especially kids that are the "older," i.e. bigger ones, if their cohort).

Lisa is talking about a very specific test/programme in Singapore aimed at tiny fraction of the cohort. Getting in is a combination of a) natural ability and b) exposure to certain things earlier in the schooling process. What cannot be known is whether the child would have also gotten in without any of the above.

And it is also true that you cannot put any kid through that early training and expect that they will pass the said test (or any other example). More importantly, kids develop at different rates, which is why academic performance varies over the years (and this is due to any number of factors), and why it is a bad idea to try and force a kid beyond "reasonable" means.

Generally speaking, I think it is important to develop skills early or at least not neglect things. Slight differences in exposure early on are unlikely to make a massive difference for most . Many of the low cost early education opportunities are just as effective as ones that cost 2x-3x as much. Either way, the social benefits you mention are definitely true.

[Lisafuller]

I tried but could not locate the specific study that had proven how kids who attend preschool were only ahead of P1 kids until the end of P1, after that, the non-preschool kids caught up to the others and there was no lasting difference in subsequent grades.

Searching the web today, I see there are many studies, some support one argument and some support the other.

Speaking from personal experience, I believe having enrolled my daughter in preschool made a massive difference in her schooling later on, as it laid a great foundation of knowledge for her. She started going to school way back in nursery when she was three. Learned to speak Mandarin from native Chinese teachers, which helped her greatly in primary school, where she was eventually identified as gifted and set on an accelerated path, along with three of her other friends, who were, interestingly, from the same preschool batch. What's funny is that despite the boys in her preschool going separate ways for primary school, they were all pretty much reunited by the time they were in JC.

You may call this sheer coincidence, but I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about the part where you say that your daughter did better because of the pre school. Not that I'm entirely dismissing the idea, but just that without solid data to back it up, it remains a hunch.

Personally, I do feel that pre school does have its benefits. Some that I can think of based on my own situation - giving the parents a breather from 24x7 baby sitting and like you mentioned, learning Mandarin from mainland Chinese teachers.

That last one - even though my wife is Chinese and does speak Mandarin fairly well, since we are a multi race family, it would otherwise involve a significant effort on my wife's part to not only speak to my daughter in Mandarin, but also to teach her in a more structured way. As it stands, she is quite confident to speak with her grandma and cousins in Chinese - her pronunciation is quite clear I'm told. Clearer than her cousin who's about 1 year older than her and who has both Chinese speaking parents. The only thing is that she has yet to figure out who speaks English and who speaks Chinese - some times she walks up to her dad (me) and starts speaking in Chinese and demands an answer

In my case, the other benefits I feel are that she gets to interact with more people of around her age which is difficult without siblings and with cousins overseas. Finally, she's also a problem feeder (more advanced issue than picky eater) - seeing other kids eat supposedly helps kids pick up better eating habits; this is according to the feeding experts that we've consulted. That has worked to improve her feeding issues to an extent.

Of course, it can't be anything more than a hunch since I didn't conduct a study about it, but your daughter is still very young while mine is nearly 19, so it may be harder for you to see what I'm describing in her at this time.

My daughter has been a picky eater her entire life, I hesitate to classify her as a problem feeder as I'm not really sure what that entails, but she's one of the pickiest eaters I've ever met. Still very picky to this day, so I can say that being in preschool did very little in terms of getting her comfortable with different foods. She hates meat and only eats a couple veggies. Back in preschool, the kids were very lucky to have a dedicated chef who would make fresh meals for them every single day, my daughter used to toss whatever food she didn't like under the table hoping not to get found out.

[Lisafuller]

I am not an expert, but I do believe there are critical things kids need to learn at different stages in life or end up stunted for life. For example, babies in their first year of life are actively watching and learning how to speak by watching mouth movements when people are speaking. If they are deprived of this, they can suffer life-long speech impediments which are hard to overcome. But learning the wrong mouth movements can be harmful too, for example - my helper insisted on practicing her broken English with my kids, and she was with them from birth. It is still having repercussions to this day.

Definitely, one such skill that needs to be learned is social skills. The importance of socialization in early childhood cannot be understated.

[Lisafuller]

Speaking from personal experience, I believe having enrolled my daughter in preschool made a massive difference in her schooling later on, as it laid a great foundation of knowledge for her. She started going to school way back in nursery when she was three. Learned to speak Mandarin from native Chinese teachers, which helped her greatly in primary school, where she was eventually identified as gifted and set on an accelerated path, along with three of her other friends, who were, interestingly, from the same preschool batch. What's funny is that despite the boys in her preschool going separate ways for primary school, they were all pretty much reunited by the time they were in JC.

You may call this sheer coincidence, but I don't think so.

I'm skeptical about the part where you say that your daughter did better because of the pre school. Not that I'm entirely dismissing the idea, but just that without solid data to back it up, it remains a hunch.

Personally, I do feel that pre school does have its benefits. Some that I can think of based on my own situation - giving the parents a breather from 24x7 baby sitting and like you mentioned, learning Mandarin from mainland Chinese teachers.

That last one - even though my wife is Chinese and does speak Mandarin fairly well, since we are a multi race family, it would otherwise involve a significant effort on my wife's part to not only speak to my daughter in Mandarin, but also to teach her in a more structured way. As it stands, she is quite confident to speak with her grandma and cousins in Chinese - her pronunciation is quite clear I'm told. Clearer than her cousin who's about 1 year older than her and who has both Chinese speaking parents. The only thing is that she has yet to figure out who speaks English and who speaks Chinese - some times she walks up to her dad (me) and starts speaking in Chinese and demands an answer

In my case, the other benefits I feel are that she gets to interact with more people of around her age which is difficult without siblings and with cousins overseas. Finally, she's also a problem feeder (more advanced issue than picky eater) - seeing other kids eat supposedly helps kids pick up better eating habits; this is according to the feeding experts that we've consulted. That has worked to improve her feeding issues to an extent.

Basically, all of these studies are only so helpful; you can get data or write some report based on whatever you want to tell (believe this is what malcontent posted above).

There are some theories that early development helps kids in that they get more opportunities early on, which means they get more opportunities subsequently, which means they get more opportunities after that, etc, etc (this is not limited to academics and applies to sports too, especially kids that are the "older," i.e. bigger ones, if their cohort).

Lisa is talking about a very specific test/programme in Singapore aimed at tiny fraction of the cohort. Getting in is a combination of a) natural ability and b) exposure to certain things earlier in the schooling process. What cannot be known is whether the child would have also gotten in without any of the above.

And it is also true that you cannot put any kid through that early training and expect that they will pass the said test (or any other example). More importantly, kids develop at different rates, which is why academic performance varies over the years (and this is due to any number of factors), and why it is a bad idea to try and force a kid beyond "reasonable" means.

Generally speaking, I think it is important to develop skills early or at least not neglect things. Slight differences in exposure early on are unlikely to make a massive difference for most . Many of the low cost early education opportunities are just as effective as ones that cost 2x-3x as much. Either way, the social benefits you mention are definitely true.

I get your point, and I'm not here to debate whether or not she would've enjoyed the same success she has if she hadn't been to preschool. What I will say, is I believe that if you put any kid in an environment that exposes them to new things and nurtures their mind, they will be better off.

[malcontent]

The biggest problem today… kids are constantly on their devices and can no longer enjoy the simple things in life.

[truthhurts1]

16K for a family isn’t big unless you wanna live a simple life, Cook at home 3-4 days , shops for grocery at fair price and limit fine dining to 5 days a month .. but depends really how much u wanna save
A single person like me in the bracket of 180-190K isn’t able to save so much but it’s because I travel a lot too and discretionary expenses like shopping and fine dining are a big part of my expenses apart from my rent and income tax, also you will be spending a lot if you have a job where you need to travel a lot believe me u less you can bill it all to your company like most of the westerners do

[malcontent]

16K for a family isn’t big unless you wanna live a simple life, Cook at home 3-4 days , shops for grocery at fair price and limit fine dining to 5 days a month .. but depends really how much u wanna save
A single person like me in the bracket of 180-190K isn’t able to save so much but it’s because I travel a lot too and discretionary expenses like shopping and fine dining are a big part of my expenses apart from my rent and income tax, also you will be spending a lot if you have a job where you need to travel a lot believe me u less you can bill it all to your company like most of the westerners do

When I first moved here and was single I was able to keep my budget well under S$1.5k per month by renting a room, taking the bus and eating local.

If you want a luxurious lifestyle and are not earning serious coin or on an expat package… you are in the wrong place and need to bounce.

[truthhurts1]

16K for a family isn’t big unless you wanna live a simple life, Cook at home 3-4 days , shops for grocery at fair price and limit fine dining to 5 days a month .. but depends really how much u wanna save
A single person like me in the bracket of 180-190K isn’t able to save so much but it’s because I travel a lot too and discretionary expenses like shopping and fine dining are a big part of my expenses apart from my rent and income tax, also you will be spending a lot if you have a job where you need to travel a lot believe me u less you can bill it all to your company like most of the westerners do

When I first moved here and was single I was able to keep my budget well under S$1.5k per month by renting a room, taking the bus and eating local.

If you want a luxurious lifestyle and are not earning serious coin or on an expat package… you are in the wrong place and need to bounce.

to each his own
I wouldnt be able to live in those circumstances
Saying that I still use bud and mrt
The highest cost for me is rental , tax and shopping , going out

[malcontent]

16K for a family isn’t big unless you wanna live a simple life, Cook at home 3-4 days , shops for grocery at fair price and limit fine dining to 5 days a month .. but depends really how much u wanna save
A single person like me in the bracket of 180-190K isn’t able to save so much but it’s because I travel a lot too and discretionary expenses like shopping and fine dining are a big part of my expenses apart from my rent and income tax, also you will be spending a lot if you have a job where you need to travel a lot believe me u less you can bill it all to your company like most of the westerners do

When I first moved here and was single I was able to keep my budget well under S$1.5k per month by renting a room, taking the bus and eating local.

If you want a luxurious lifestyle and are not earning serious coin or on an expat package… you are in the wrong place and need to bounce.

to each his own
I wouldnt be able to live in those circumstances
Saying that I still use bud and mrt
The highest cost for me is rental , tax and shopping , going out

Just saying, trying to live like an expat on a local salary is one of the worst financial moves one can make here. Singapore is a place to make money, not spend money — you won’t get any bang for your buck here, it’s just money down the drain. Earn here, spend elsewhere… unless you are spending someone else’s money.