Citizenship Application - Dilemma about the primary applicant

[sundaymorningstaple]

PR since 2010 (Self-sponsored).

What does that mean? Was your PR application made using the Professional/Technical Scheme or the Global Investors Scheme?

The reason we ask so many questions is that you have a number of anomalies that we would like to have clarified before we commit to giving you as accurate an answer as we can. Additionally, your interactions with the forum members all goes to contributing to the collective database of knowledge here.

The reason for the questions on MT and on another current thread for the same thing is that for many years it was different (research here would show direct conflict) as I was the first in Singapore to have their children take English as their MT in the local school system (My wife IS Tamil but I am Caucasian American and the Mother Tongue in Singapore is determined by the Father's 'Mother tongue'. So it seems to be apparent in recent years that the government has started to open up on this. This is very important information, so you come here with your hat in your hands looking for information, we are also always looking for new or updated information for our collective database to be able to help the next guy as most don't stick around to help pay it forward after they get what they want.
Peace.
sms/moderator

[ModestGuy]

PR since 2010 (Self-sponsored).

What does that mean? Was your PR application made using the Professional/Technical Scheme or the Global Investors Scheme?

The reason we ask so many questions is that you have a number of anomalies that we would like to have clarified before we commit to giving you as accurate an answer as we can. Additionally, your interactions with the forum members all goes to contributing to the collective database of knowledge here.

The reason for the questions on MT and on another current thread for the same thing is that for many years it was different (research here would show direct conflict) as I was the first in Singapore to have their children take English as their MT in the local school system (My wife IS Tamil but I am Caucasian American and the Mother Tongue in Singapore is determined by the Father's 'Mother tongue'. So it seems to be apparent in recent years that the government has started to open up on this. This is very important information, so you come here with your hat in your hands looking for information, we are also always looking for new or updated information for our collective database to be able to help the next guy as most don't stick around to help pay it forward after they get what they want.
Peace.
sms/moderator

Dear Sundaymorningstaple, Thanks for your reply. Questions are always welcome, no issues with that. I think I have answered all the queries that were raised by fellow members (apologies if I missed anything).

I got my PR in 2010 through a professional/technical scheme after completing my masters from NUS. Thank you.

Regards,

ModestGuy

[sundaymorningstaple]

"I think this is better as opposed to me (husband) being the primary applicant as I hail from a sunset industry like oil & gas."

Truth be told, I believe I would still bet my last nickle on you as the Primary Applicant. Even though the government is currently looking into the Blockchain/Crypto phenomena, based on the current issues with it here, I wouldn't bet on it.

The O & G industry. Are you Upstream or Downstream oriented? Getting it out of the ground or out of a refinery? "The Sunset Industry Syndrome". I have haven't heard that one in over two decades. When I came to Singapore 40 years ago 11 June 1982, I was also told it was a sunset industry that would probably be in it's death throes in 10 years and dead at 20. Forty years later, Still drilling but the water is much, much deeper. and the drilling depths are also much deeper and still technology is advancing and producing. Personally the sun will not set in your lifetime. Apply as the primary applicant. Oh, and here's a bit of leisurely reading you might enjoy regardless of where you are in the oil pipeline.. Good Luck. (I worked in the O&G industry in the Gulf of Mexico from 1997 till I took my first contract (poached from Morgan City, LA company) here in 1982. Continued in the industry until 1994 when I decided to leave the industry and get a land based job so I could apply for PR (I worked in the offshore exploration side of the industry, getting it out of the ground.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=57 ... _tn__=EH-R Off The Wall - Mike Rowe

[ModestGuy]

"I think this is better as opposed to me (husband) being the primary applicant as I hail from a sunset industry like oil & gas."

Truth be told, I believe I would still bet my last nickle on you as the Primary Applicant. Even though the government is currently looking into the Blockchain/Crypto phenomena, based on the current issues with it here, I wouldn't bet on it.

The O & G industry. Are you Upstream or Downstream oriented? Getting it out of the ground or out of a refinery? "The Sunset Industry Syndrome". I have haven't heard that one in over two decades. When I came to Singapore 40 years ago 11 June 1982, I was also told it was a sunset industry that would probably be in it's death throes in 10 years and dead at 20. Forty years later, Still drilling but the water is much, much deeper. and the drilling depths are also much deeper and still technology is advancing and producing. Personally the sun will not set in your lifetime. Apply as the primary applicant. Oh, and here's a bit of leisurely reading you might enjoy regardless of where you are in the oil pipeline.. Good Luck. (I worked in the O&G industry in the Gulf of Mexico from 1997 till I took my first contract (poached from Morgan City, LA company) here in 1982. Continued in the industry until 1994 when I decided to leave the industry and get a land based job so I could apply for PR (I worked in the offshore exploration side of the industry, getting it out of the ground.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=57 ... _tn__=EH-R Off The Wall - Mike Rowe

Dear Sundaymorningstaple, Thanks again for your detailed reply. Good to note that you too worked in O&G industry. I am from the upstream side and I deal with EPCI (engineering,procurement,construction and installation) of offshore floating oil rigs. I agree with you that oil is here to stay for at least a few decades. However, I am a bit worried as the Singapore government does not seem to be pro-O&G/Offshore & Marine people when it comes to PR/SC applications. I have seen quite a few people in my industry struggling with this. Anyway, I truly appreciate your opinion, and thanks a ton for all the insights!

Regards,

ModestGuy

[smoulder]

Do you see Indians struggling or folks in your industry in general? I'm guessing it's the former. I think it's not restricted to a single industry, but across the board. You've already cleared one of the biggest hurdles for Indians by getting yourself a PR. Something that most Indians in even the tech industry struggle with.

[PNGMK]

I'm in Oil and Gas. The govt support for upstream is pretty pathetic. They've lost WFT, SLB and a few other major service company HQ's in the last decade and don't care it seems. I think BH are looking at moving out too.

[Lisafuller]

PR since 2010 (Self-sponsored).

What does that mean? Was your PR application made using the Professional/Technical Scheme or the Global Investors Scheme?

The reason we ask so many questions is that you have a number of anomalies that we would like to have clarified before we commit to giving you as accurate an answer as we can. Additionally, your interactions with the forum members all goes to contributing to the collective database of knowledge here.

The reason for the questions on MT and on another current thread for the same thing is that for many years it was different (research here would show direct conflict) as I was the first in Singapore to have their children take English as their MT in the local school system (My wife IS Tamil but I am Caucasian American and the Mother Tongue in Singapore is determined by the Father's 'Mother tongue'. So it seems to be apparent in recent years that the government has started to open up on this. This is very important information, so you come here with your hat in your hands looking for information, we are also always looking for new or updated information for our collective database to be able to help the next guy as most don't stick around to help pay it forward after they get what they want.
Peace.
sms/moderator

How ironic that they call it mother tongue then.

[Lisafuller]

"I think this is better as opposed to me (husband) being the primary applicant as I hail from a sunset industry like oil & gas."

Truth be told, I believe I would still bet my last nickle on you as the Primary Applicant. Even though the government is currently looking into the Blockchain/Crypto phenomena, based on the current issues with it here, I wouldn't bet on it.

The O & G industry. Are you Upstream or Downstream oriented? Getting it out of the ground or out of a refinery? "The Sunset Industry Syndrome". I have haven't heard that one in over two decades. When I came to Singapore 40 years ago 11 June 1982, I was also told it was a sunset industry that would probably be in it's death throes in 10 years and dead at 20. Forty years later, Still drilling but the water is much, much deeper. and the drilling depths are also much deeper and still technology is advancing and producing. Personally the sun will not set in your lifetime. Apply as the primary applicant. Oh, and here's a bit of leisurely reading you might enjoy regardless of where you are in the oil pipeline.. Good Luck. (I worked in the O&G industry in the Gulf of Mexico from 1997 till I took my first contract (poached from Morgan City, LA company) here in 1982. Continued in the industry until 1994 when I decided to leave the industry and get a land based job so I could apply for PR (I worked in the offshore exploration side of the industry, getting it out of the ground.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=57 ... _tn__=EH-R Off The Wall - Mike Rowe

Exactly. Oil and gas is an established industry and whether or not it is declining in relevance, it is still here to stay at least for the foreseeable future.

[Lisafuller]

Hi. Unfortunately I cannot answer your specific questions but I am curious as to how you got your child to take Mandarin as MT (instead of Tamil or any of the Non-Tamil Indian Languages)? Was it as simple as "think Mandarin is more valuable so please let us take instead" or were there other nuances (don't speak any of the other options)? I am not aware of any situations where SC child was able to switch freely if both parents were from the same ethnicity.

A lesser known fact about local primary schools is that if the child’s mother tongue is not accessible (meaning it is not offered at a MOE language center or at school), the child can elect to take another mother tongue. Same applies if the child is mixed race and has both mother tongues offered as an option in school. If the child is foreign, the parents can even choose for the child to take no mother tongue at all, but this option is not encouraged because it’s a missed opportunity to pick up a really good skill.

Thank you. I am aware of the above. I guess I am trying to understand if there is a case where SC/PR had both parents of the same ethnicity but was allowed to switch MT. There was a similar posting recently (Indian-Indian but children taking Mandarin) but he didn't remember the details.

The SC/PR can also get an exemption from MT. But as you note you are by-passing the chance to learn a really valuable skill. In addition, the new PSLE Scoring System blows up the MT exemption. Instead of deriving a MT subject t-score from your other three subjects, it assigns AL6 - AL8 for MT (same as foundation MT). I.e. the best total score you can get is AL9 (AL1 for Math, English, Science + AL6 for MT). For reference, IP is AL6 - AL9, and there's only one school at AL9, so taking the exemption is not seen as attractive these days (unless for medical reasons). It has made things more difficult for families that were posted overseas when the kids were young/at the start of primary school. Still need to learn MT while there at a decent level or will get clobbered when you return.

Edit: quotes/formatting

Hadn’t even thought about the new PSLE system. That is a great point, it’s been over seven years since my daughter took the PSLE, and that was with the old scoring system, where not taking mother tongue would not negatively impact your application to secondary school at all.

[Lisafuller]

Dear all,

Here are some further clarifications about the MT -
1. We hail from a North Indian non-Hindi/Bengali-speaking state.
2. The closest available language to our actual MT would be Hindi however we went for Mandarin as it would be more beneficial to our kids in the future (personal opinion). Also, our child is fluent in our actual MT and can do basic conversation in Hindi due to the exposure to Hindi movies/our Hindi speaking helper etc. So we do not see a major issue going forward.
3. I know of a family which managed to take a different MT for their kid, even though their actual MT was available as an option. However, school/MOE do try to discourage that and you do need
to seek special permission from them.

Appreciate it if everyone could kindly guide me on the actual topic of the post - who should be the primary/main applicant (husband or wife) to maximize the approval chances.

Thanks a lot!

ModestGuy

Fair enough. And actually, if you are able to converse with your child in your native tongue at home, they will enjoy the additional benefit of becoming trilingual. Good decision on your part.

[Lisafuller]

I think you have a pretty good chance at securing SC. Reason being that the ethnic quota is fairly high compared to some of the smaller minority groups, salary has increased significantly since the last application and you have both been here for quite some time, renewing your PR each time which shows commitment to SG.

Dear Lisafuller, Thanks for your reply. Any thoughts on who should be the primary applicant (husband or wife) to maximize the approval chances? Details of our profile are in the main post.

Cheers.

ModestGuy

I think both offer relatively similar chances, but if anything I believe the husband edges the wife out a little bit. Reason being you have been here as a PR for longer, been educated locally and make more in terms of income. In other words, you have stronger ties to singapore on paper.

[Lisafuller]

A lesser known fact about local primary schools is that if the child’s mother tongue is not accessible (meaning it is not offered at a MOE language center or at school), the child can elect to take another mother tongue. Same applies if the child is mixed race and has both mother tongues offered as an option in school. If the child is foreign, the parents can even choose for the child to take no mother tongue at all, but this option is not encouraged because it’s a missed opportunity to pick up a really good skill.

Thank you. I am aware of the above. I guess I am trying to understand if there is a case where SC/PR had both parents of the same ethnicity but was allowed to switch MT. There was a similar posting recently (Indian-Indian but children taking Mandarin) but he didn't remember the details.

The SC/PR can also get an exemption from MT. But as you note you are by-passing the chance to learn a really valuable skill. In addition, the new PSLE Scoring System blows up the MT exemption. Instead of deriving a MT subject t-score from your other three subjects, it assigns AL6 - AL8 for MT (same as foundation MT). I.e. the best total score you can get is AL9 (AL1 for Math, English, Science + AL6 for MT). For reference, IP is AL6 - AL9, and there's only one school at AL9, so taking the exemption is not seen as attractive these days (unless for medical reasons). It has made things more difficult for families that were posted overseas when the kids were young/at the start of primary school. Still need to learn MT while there at a decent level or will get clobbered when you return.

Edit: quotes/formatting

I believe the OP mentioned that his MT wasn't on the standard list of MOE offerings. Technically that means that Tamil (since many people here seem to assume that "Indian" = "Tamil") is as much of a foreign language to him as Mandarin. Of course, I don't know if that's exactly how the MOE sees it but it could be.

I met a young Singaporean Punjabi who is now roughly in his mid 20s - he told me that it was hard for him to get Punjabi or Hindi taught in his school, so he was allowed to take up Malay instead. He picked up Hindi by watching Hindi movies. Not sure about Punjabi which is his MT since I didn't ask him.

To your point about kids getting clobbered when they return back to their own country, I think that's a good point - it could lead to larger integration issues as well if and when they return. However, in this case, the OP wants to put down roots here, so trips to India will presumably be for limited duration.

Even if they are teased when they visit their home country, it’s only really a problem if they ever plan to move back. I think the teasing is worth being trilingual.

[NYY1]

Hadn’t even thought about the new PSLE system. That is a great point, it’s been over seven years since my daughter took the PSLE, and that was with the old scoring system, where not taking mother tongue would not negatively impact your application to secondary school at all.

I think the current thought is either try to get back before primary school starts or stay overseas until eligible for SPERS-Sec (if one has the freedom to chose). Most people seem to think it is quite a challenge to move from overseas system to local system in P4 or P5, especially if MT is a challenge.

Unfortunately, the MT Exemption change was announced when some kids were part way through primary school (I think last year's or 2021 P6s through this year or 2022 P4s). Regardless of whether the change was good or bad, some of these kids were kind of blindsided when told they would be assigned AL6 - AL8 for MT (vs. the previously derived subject t-score).

Anyways, I guess we can move on here and not clog up the thread. Apologies to all but the MT policy is something I have been following for a while.

[ModestGuy]

Dear All,

Thanks a lot for all the insights.

ModestGuy

[Lisafuller]

Hadn’t even thought about the new PSLE system. That is a great point, it’s been over seven years since my daughter took the PSLE, and that was with the old scoring system, where not taking mother tongue would not negatively impact your application to secondary school at all.

I think the current thought is either try to get back before primary school starts or stay overseas until eligible for SPERS-Sec (if one has the freedom to chose). Most people seem to think it is quite a challenge to move from overseas system to local system in P4 or P5, especially if MT is a challenge.

Unfortunately, the MT Exemption change was announced when some kids were part way through primary school (I think last year's or 2021 P6s through this year or 2022 P4s). Regardless of whether the change was good or bad, some of these kids were kind of blindsided when told they would be assigned AL6 - AL8 for MT (vs. the previously derived subject t-score).

Anyways, I guess we can move on here and not clog up the thread. Apologies to all but the MT policy is something I have been following for a while.

Me too, it’s been especially relevant in my life with my daughter until recently when she graduated JC. Good discussion!