Citizenship Application - Dilemma about the primary applicant

[ModestGuy]

Hello all,

We are a family of four (husband, wife, and two daughters). We are planning to apply for SC and this would be our second attempt. The first rejection came in early 2019 after about 15 months of wait. Here is some background about us,

Race - Indian
House: Self-owned 5-room HDB since 2012
Age - Husband & wife: late 30s, Daughters: 7 & 2
Husband - Field: Oil & gas, Annual income: 175k base, Education: Masters from a local university (Engineering), PR since 2010 (Self-sponsored)
Wife - Field: Blockchain & Cryptocurrency, Annual income:130k base, Education: Masters from the UK(Engineering), PR since 2012 (husband sponsored)
Daughters - School: Elder one in local primary school (Mother tongue: Mandarin) & younger one in local daycare, Country of birth: Singapore, PR since birth

What has changed since the last SC rejection in early 2019?
1. Household income increased by about 33%
2. Enrolled the elder daughter in a local school.
3. Had our 2nd child
4. Completed our 2nd PR renewal
4. Wife completed a government-sponsored mid-career transition program in 2021 and transitioned from the conventional financial industry to blockchain/cryptocurrency domain.

I would like to get your opinion on the following points -

1. How do our SC approval chances look this time?
2. During the first failed attempt, I was the primary applicant. This time, we are thinking of having my wife as the primary applicant as she has successfully transitioned into more futuristic fields like blockchain using government sponsored program. I think this is better as opposed to me (husband) being the primary applicant as I hail from a sunset industry like oil & gas. However the downside to this is that my wife has comparatively lesser income than me and has had small breaks (a year each) in her career post the birth of our daughters. However, she has total work experience of 11+ years and is back in the workforce since 2nd half of 2021. Whom do you think should be the primary applicant to maximize our chances of SC approval?

Kindly let me know your thoughts and advice. Thanks a lot in advance.

Regards,

ModestGuy

[NYY1]

Hello all,

We are a family of four (husband, wife, and two daughters). We are planning to apply for SC and this would be our second attempt. The first rejection came in early 2019 after about 15 months of wait. Here is some background about us,

Race - Indian
House: Self-owned 5-room HDB since 2012
Age - Husband & wife: late 30s, Daughters: 7 & 2
Husband - Field: Oil & gas, Annual income: 175k base, Education: Masters from a local university (Engineering), PR since 2010 (Self-sponsored)
Wife - Field: Blockchain & Cryptocurrency, Annual income:130k base, Education: Masters from the UK(Engineering), PR since 2012 (husband sponsored)
Daughters - School: Elder one in local primary school (Mother tongue: Mandarin) & younger one in local daycare, Country of birth: Singapore, PR since birth

What has changed since the last SC rejection in early 2019?
1. Household income increased by about 33%
2. Enrolled the elder daughter in a local school.
3. Had our 2nd child
4. Completed our 2nd PR renewal
4. Wife completed a government-sponsored mid-career transition program in 2021 and transitioned from the conventional financial industry to blockchain/cryptocurrency domain.

I would like to get your opinion on the following points -

1. How do our SC approval chances look this time?
2. During the first failed attempt, I was the primary applicant. This time, we are thinking of having my wife as the primary applicant as she has successfully transitioned into more futuristic fields like blockchain using government sponsored program. I think this is better as opposed to me (husband) being the primary applicant as I hail from a sunset industry like oil & gas. However the downside to this is that my wife has comparatively lesser income than me and has had small breaks (a year each) in her career post the birth of our daughters. However, she has total work experience of 11+ years and is back in the workforce since 2nd half of 2021. Whom do you think should be the primary applicant to maximize our chances of SC approval?

Kindly let me know your thoughts and advice. Thanks a lot in advance.

Regards,

ModestGuy

Hi. Unfortunately I cannot answer your specific questions but I am curious as to how you got your child to take Mandarin as MT (instead of Tamil or any of the Non-Tamil Indian Languages)? Was it as simple as "think Mandarin is more valuable so please let us take instead" or were there other nuances (don't speak any of the other options)? I am not aware of any situations where SC child was able to switch freely if both parents were from the same ethnicity.

[lot286]

when one applies for a family unit where both husband and wife are PRs, does it require use to choose 'primary applicant'?

[ModestGuy]

Dear NYY1, We opted for Mandarin because we think it has better utility for our kids in the future. We did not opt for Tamil or any available Indian languages because our actual MT is not a part of the list. It was possible to go for Mandarin with a permission from school/MOE.

Dear lot286, Yes. There has to be a primary/main applicant.

Regards,

ModestGuy

[lot286]

i think your family stands a good chance and should apply.
I also tihnk that it doesnt matter if it's you or your wife being primary applicants (both look equally good on a standalone basis, and both's strengths will enhance the chances of everyone getting a citizenship being in a family unit application)

i may be wrong but i think relative strengths matter only when it comes to a sponsored application.

[NYY1]

Dear NYY1, We opted for Mandarin because we think it has better utility for our kids in the future. We did not opt for Tamil or any available Indian languages because our actual MT is not a part of the list. It was possible to go for Mandarin with a permission from school/MOE.
....

Got it. I think many may agree with the underlined part. I guess I am just curious as to whether the bold part is a necessary condition for MOE to grant permission.

For example, if someone is none of C/M/I, then they are free to chose, subject to approval.

Anyways, thanks for replying and good luck.

[Lisafuller]

Hello all,

We are a family of four (husband, wife, and two daughters). We are planning to apply for SC and this would be our second attempt. The first rejection came in early 2019 after about 15 months of wait. Here is some background about us,

Race - Indian
House: Self-owned 5-room HDB since 2012
Age - Husband & wife: late 30s, Daughters: 7 & 2
Husband - Field: Oil & gas, Annual income: 175k base, Education: Masters from a local university (Engineering), PR since 2010 (Self-sponsored)
Wife - Field: Blockchain & Cryptocurrency, Annual income:130k base, Education: Masters from the UK(Engineering), PR since 2012 (husband sponsored)
Daughters - School: Elder one in local primary school (Mother tongue: Mandarin) & younger one in local daycare, Country of birth: Singapore, PR since birth

What has changed since the last SC rejection in early 2019?
1. Household income increased by about 33%
2. Enrolled the elder daughter in a local school.
3. Had our 2nd child
4. Completed our 2nd PR renewal
4. Wife completed a government-sponsored mid-career transition program in 2021 and transitioned from the conventional financial industry to blockchain/cryptocurrency domain.

I would like to get your opinion on the following points -

1. How do our SC approval chances look this time?
2. During the first failed attempt, I was the primary applicant. This time, we are thinking of having my wife as the primary applicant as she has successfully transitioned into more futuristic fields like blockchain using government sponsored program. I think this is better as opposed to me (husband) being the primary applicant as I hail from a sunset industry like oil & gas. However the downside to this is that my wife has comparatively lesser income than me and has had small breaks (a year each) in her career post the birth of our daughters. However, she has total work experience of 11+ years and is back in the workforce since 2nd half of 2021. Whom do you think should be the primary applicant to maximize our chances of SC approval?

Kindly let me know your thoughts and advice. Thanks a lot in advance.

Regards,

ModestGuy

Hi. Unfortunately I cannot answer your specific questions but I am curious as to how you got your child to take Mandarin as MT (instead of Tamil or any of the Non-Tamil Indian Languages)? Was it as simple as "think Mandarin is more valuable so please let us take instead" or were there other nuances (don't speak any of the other options)? I am not aware of any situations where SC child was able to switch freely if both parents were from the same ethnicity.

A lesser known fact about local primary schools is that if the child’s mother tongue is not accessible (meaning it is not offered at a MOE language center or at school), the child can elect to take another mother tongue. Same applies if the child is mixed race and has both mother tongues offered as an option in school. If the child is foreign, the parents can even choose for the child to take no mother tongue at all, but this option is not encouraged because it’s a missed opportunity to pick up a really good skill.

[Lisafuller]

Dear NYY1, We opted for Mandarin because we think it has better utility for our kids in the future. We did not opt for Tamil or any available Indian languages because our actual MT is not a part of the list. It was possible to go for Mandarin with a permission from school/MOE.

Dear lot286, Yes. There has to be a primary/main applicant.

Regards,

ModestGuy

Just out of curiosity, what is your mother tongue? In my daughters experience the most common non-Tamil Indian languages were Hindi Punjabi and Bengali, other than that the local system does not seem to offer many others.

[Lisafuller]

Dear NYY1, We opted for Mandarin because we think it has better utility for our kids in the future. We did not opt for Tamil or any available Indian languages because our actual MT is not a part of the list. It was possible to go for Mandarin with a permission from school/MOE.
....

Got it. I think many may agree with the underlined part. I guess I am just curious as to whether the bold part is a necessary condition for MOE to grant permission.

For example, if someone is none of C/M/I, then they are free to chose, subject to approval.

Anyways, thanks for replying and good luck.

Yes, this is the case. If the child is foreign, and chooses to take a mother tongue, he or she can elect to take any of the available mother tongues. More often than not the kid ends up taking Mandarin for practical purposes, if not they’ll probably take Malay because it is seen as an easier pass since the alphabet is more similar to English as compared to mandarin where the characters are very pictorial.

[Lisafuller]

when one applies for a family unit where both husband and wife are PRs, does it require use to choose 'primary applicant'?

Yup, basically the anchor of the application.

[Lisafuller]

I think you have a pretty good chance at securing SC. Reason being that the ethnic quota is fairly high compared to some of the smaller minority groups, salary has increased significantly since the last application and you have both been here for quite some time, renewing your PR each time which shows commitment to SG.

[NYY1]

Hi. Unfortunately I cannot answer your specific questions but I am curious as to how you got your child to take Mandarin as MT (instead of Tamil or any of the Non-Tamil Indian Languages)? Was it as simple as "think Mandarin is more valuable so please let us take instead" or were there other nuances (don't speak any of the other options)? I am not aware of any situations where SC child was able to switch freely if both parents were from the same ethnicity.

A lesser known fact about local primary schools is that if the child’s mother tongue is not accessible (meaning it is not offered at a MOE language center or at school), the child can elect to take another mother tongue. Same applies if the child is mixed race and has both mother tongues offered as an option in school. If the child is foreign, the parents can even choose for the child to take no mother tongue at all, but this option is not encouraged because it’s a missed opportunity to pick up a really good skill.

Thank you. I am aware of the above. I guess I am trying to understand if there is a case where SC/PR had both parents of the same ethnicity but was allowed to switch MT. There was a similar posting recently (Indian-Indian but children taking Mandarin) but he didn't remember the details.

The SC/PR can also get an exemption from MT. But as you note you are by-passing the chance to learn a really valuable skill. In addition, the new PSLE Scoring System blows up the MT exemption. Instead of deriving a MT subject t-score from your other three subjects, it assigns AL6 - AL8 for MT (same as foundation MT). I.e. the best total score you can get is AL9 (AL1 for Math, English, Science + AL6 for MT). For reference, IP is AL6 - AL9, and there's only one school at AL9, so taking the exemption is not seen as attractive these days (unless for medical reasons). It has made things more difficult for families that were posted overseas when the kids were young/at the start of primary school. Still need to learn MT while there at a decent level or will get clobbered when you return.

Edit: quotes/formatting

[ModestGuy]

I think you have a pretty good chance at securing SC. Reason being that the ethnic quota is fairly high compared to some of the smaller minority groups, salary has increased significantly since the last application and you have both been here for quite some time, renewing your PR each time which shows commitment to SG.

Dear Lisafuller, Thanks for your reply. Any thoughts on who should be the primary applicant (husband or wife) to maximize the approval chances? Details of our profile are in the main post.

Cheers.

ModestGuy

[smoulder]

Hi. Unfortunately I cannot answer your specific questions but I am curious as to how you got your child to take Mandarin as MT (instead of Tamil or any of the Non-Tamil Indian Languages)? Was it as simple as "think Mandarin is more valuable so please let us take instead" or were there other nuances (don't speak any of the other options)? I am not aware of any situations where SC child was able to switch freely if both parents were from the same ethnicity.

A lesser known fact about local primary schools is that if the child’s mother tongue is not accessible (meaning it is not offered at a MOE language center or at school), the child can elect to take another mother tongue. Same applies if the child is mixed race and has both mother tongues offered as an option in school. If the child is foreign, the parents can even choose for the child to take no mother tongue at all, but this option is not encouraged because it’s a missed opportunity to pick up a really good skill.

Thank you. I am aware of the above. I guess I am trying to understand if there is a case where SC/PR had both parents of the same ethnicity but was allowed to switch MT. There was a similar posting recently (Indian-Indian but children taking Mandarin) but he didn't remember the details.

The SC/PR can also get an exemption from MT. But as you note you are by-passing the chance to learn a really valuable skill. In addition, the new PSLE Scoring System blows up the MT exemption. Instead of deriving a MT subject t-score from your other three subjects, it assigns AL6 - AL8 for MT (same as foundation MT). I.e. the best total score you can get is AL9 (AL1 for Math, English, Science + AL6 for MT). For reference, IP is AL6 - AL9, and there's only one school at AL9, so taking the exemption is not seen as attractive these days (unless for medical reasons). It has made things more difficult for families that were posted overseas when the kids were young/at the start of primary school. Still need to learn MT while there at a decent level or will get clobbered when you return.

Edit: quotes/formatting

I believe the OP mentioned that his MT wasn't on the standard list of MOE offerings. Technically that means that Tamil (since many people here seem to assume that "Indian" = "Tamil") is as much of a foreign language to him as Mandarin. Of course, I don't know if that's exactly how the MOE sees it but it could be.

I met a young Singaporean Punjabi who is now roughly in his mid 20s - he told me that it was hard for him to get Punjabi or Hindi taught in his school, so he was allowed to take up Malay instead. He picked up Hindi by watching Hindi movies. Not sure about Punjabi which is his MT since I didn't ask him.

To your point about kids getting clobbered when they return back to their own country, I think that's a good point - it could lead to larger integration issues as well if and when they return. However, in this case, the OP wants to put down roots here, so trips to India will presumably be for limited duration.

[ModestGuy]

Dear all,

Here are some further clarifications about the MT -
1. We hail from a North Indian non-Hindi/Bengali-speaking state.
2. The closest available language to our actual MT would be Hindi however we went for Mandarin as it would be more beneficial to our kids in the future (personal opinion). Also, our child is fluent in our actual MT and can do basic conversation in Hindi due to the exposure to Hindi movies/our Hindi speaking helper etc. So we do not see a major issue going forward.
3. I know of a family which managed to take a different MT for their kid, even though their actual MT was available as an option. However, school/MOE do try to discourage that and you do need
to seek special permission from them.

Appreciate it if everyone could kindly guide me on the actual topic of the post - who should be the primary/main applicant (husband or wife) to maximize the approval chances.

Thanks a lot!

ModestGuy