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Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

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therat
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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by therat » Wed, 29 Jun 2022 1:59 pm

Yes. this is apply to rent out the whole flat.
If rent out a room and landlord is staying in the unit.
It make sense that some landlord might want to rent his/her room to someone s/he feel comfortable or less conflict (s/he wishlist)

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Thu, 30 Jun 2022 4:39 am

nelyanne wrote:
Wed, 29 Jun 2022 1:45 pm
therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:16 am
https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/rent ... ligibility

under Non-Citizen Quota for renting out of Flat

You will have to consider the Non-Citizen Quota for Renting Out of Flat if any tenant renting your flat is a non-Malaysian non-citizen (Singapore Permanent Resident or foreigner). The quota is to help maintain a good ethnic mix in HDB estates. Malaysians are not subject to this quota in view of their close cultural and historical similarities with Singaporeans.

The quota is set at 8% at the neighbourhood level and 11% at the block level, and applicable if any tenant renting the whole flat is a non-Malaysian non-citizen (Singapore Permanent Resident or foreigner) . If the quota is reached, only Singaporeans and Malaysians can rent a flat in that neighbourhood/ block. Note that this quota does not apply to the rental of bedrooms.

===========

This requirement come out after new come out, 1 race almost form a village in a residential area.
Does not it apply only to a scenario when you rent out the whole flat? So it's meaningless if you rent out only a room?
Pretty sure it applies only if you rent out the whole unit.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Thu, 30 Jun 2022 4:42 am

therat wrote:
Wed, 29 Jun 2022 1:59 pm
Yes. this is apply to rent out the whole flat.
If rent out a room and landlord is staying in the unit.
It make sense that some landlord might want to rent his/her room to someone s/he feel comfortable or less conflict (s/he wishlist)
The last thing you would want is to rent out your house to someone who you can’t get along with or whose habits are incompatible with yours due to ethnic/religious reasons.

For example a Chinese landlord may be unwilling to rent to a malay tenant if they need to share a kitchen as the landlord would then need to purchase new cutlery and appliances and only cook Halal food from there on out, which wouldn’t be ideal for most landlords.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by rockstargirl » Mon, 11 Jul 2022 2:48 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 11:28 pm
therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:16 am
https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/rent ... ligibility

under Non-Citizen Quota for renting out of Flat

You will have to consider the Non-Citizen Quota for Renting Out of Flat if any tenant renting your flat is a non-Malaysian non-citizen (Singapore Permanent Resident or foreigner). The quota is to help maintain a good ethnic mix in HDB estates. Malaysians are not subject to this quota in view of their close cultural and historical similarities with Singaporeans.

The quota is set at 8% at the neighbourhood level and 11% at the block level, and applicable if any tenant renting the whole flat is a non-Malaysian non-citizen (Singapore Permanent Resident or foreigner) . If the quota is reached, only Singaporeans and Malaysians can rent a flat in that neighbourhood/ block. Note that this quota does not apply to the rental of bedrooms.

===========

This requirement come out after new come out, 1 race almost form a village in a residential area.
8 or 11% doesn’t seem like very much, so it would probably be fair to say that while there are a few renting with these quotas in mind, most are probably just cherry picking their preferred race. Although I do believe most renters are foreigners so chances are it may be inevitable to have to turn down a larger number of foreign renters.
As someone mentioned above, percentages are just applicable for renting out entire apartments - where this turns discriminatory is for sub-letting. I wasn't sure if there is any mandate on that as well. The sad part I have noticed is most are left on their own or with house-help and lonely. Since most of elderly population can make good use of rental income, change of policies can be really beneficial for them from both financial/social aspects.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Mon, 18 Jul 2022 4:38 am

rockstargirl wrote:
Mon, 11 Jul 2022 2:48 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 11:28 pm
therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:16 am
https://www.hdb.gov.sg/residential/rent ... ligibility

under Non-Citizen Quota for renting out of Flat

You will have to consider the Non-Citizen Quota for Renting Out of Flat if any tenant renting your flat is a non-Malaysian non-citizen (Singapore Permanent Resident or foreigner). The quota is to help maintain a good ethnic mix in HDB estates. Malaysians are not subject to this quota in view of their close cultural and historical similarities with Singaporeans.

The quota is set at 8% at the neighbourhood level and 11% at the block level, and applicable if any tenant renting the whole flat is a non-Malaysian non-citizen (Singapore Permanent Resident or foreigner) . If the quota is reached, only Singaporeans and Malaysians can rent a flat in that neighbourhood/ block. Note that this quota does not apply to the rental of bedrooms.

===========

This requirement come out after new come out, 1 race almost form a village in a residential area.
8 or 11% doesn’t seem like very much, so it would probably be fair to say that while there are a few renting with these quotas in mind, most are probably just cherry picking their preferred race. Although I do believe most renters are foreigners so chances are it may be inevitable to have to turn down a larger number of foreign renters.
As someone mentioned above, percentages are just applicable for renting out entire apartments - where this turns discriminatory is for sub-letting. I wasn't sure if there is any mandate on that as well. The sad part I have noticed is most are left on their own or with house-help and lonely. Since most of elderly population can make good use of rental income, change of policies can be really beneficial for them from both financial/social aspects.
When you say social, do you mean in the sense that they’ll be able to interact with renters from other ethnic groups? Because if that’s the case I’d argue that most members of the elderly in Singapore are pretty close minded and conservative and would rather stick to people who they deem as “their own”, whatever that may mean for them. I don’t think policy changes would benefit them socially, as they wouldn’t be receptive to these benefits at all.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by smoulder » Mon, 18 Jul 2022 8:52 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 18 Jul 2022 4:38 am
rockstargirl wrote:
Mon, 11 Jul 2022 2:48 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 11:28 pm


8 or 11% doesn’t seem like very much, so it would probably be fair to say that while there are a few renting with these quotas in mind, most are probably just cherry picking their preferred race. Although I do believe most renters are foreigners so chances are it may be inevitable to have to turn down a larger number of foreign renters.
As someone mentioned above, percentages are just applicable for renting out entire apartments - where this turns discriminatory is for sub-letting. I wasn't sure if there is any mandate on that as well. The sad part I have noticed is most are left on their own or with house-help and lonely. Since most of elderly population can make good use of rental income, change of policies can be really beneficial for them from both financial/social aspects.
When you say social, do you mean in the sense that they’ll be able to interact with renters from other ethnic groups? Because if that’s the case I’d argue that most members of the elderly in Singapore are pretty close minded and conservative and would rather stick to people who they deem as “their own”, whatever that may mean for them. I don’t think policy changes would benefit them socially, as they wouldn’t be receptive to these benefits at all.
I think that in theory the ethnic quota policy was to encourage different races to live more closely with each other.

How well has it worked? I'm not sure - maybe it worked to some extent. For instance, it may be one of the reasons why we don't have racial riots like the type that would happen in the early days of independence. There is also a growing trend of inter racial dating and marriage. I'm guessing that SMS will probably tell us about how that last one is an unexpected and unplanned consequence of the racial harmony policy :D

Yes, there are still many old timers who are cannot and won't change. To add on, there are many younger generation ones who have already been indoctrinated. But at least there has been some progress.

By the way, it's not all rosy and cozy with the hdb policy. The majority race has a harder time buying, but it is easier to sell. The minorities on the other hand have a hard time selling, but can buy more easily.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by malcontent » Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:49 am

therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:29 am
So.. if you said I'm racist. Racist lor. I will not rent my house to them. I have enough.
Since when is PRC a race? I am guessing you would view an ethic Chinese or ethnic Indian who are born & raised in another country differently? You are only guilty of stereotyping… i.e. assuming everyone from PRC and India is like that. That is not racism, just bias against country of origin.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by smoulder » Thu, 21 Jul 2022 1:17 am

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:49 am
therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:29 am
So.. if you said I'm racist. Racist lor. I will not rent my house to them. I have enough.
Since when is PRC a race? I am guessing you would view an ethic Chinese or ethnic Indian who are born & raised in another country differently? You are only guilty of stereotyping… i.e. assuming everyone from PRC and India is like that. That is not racism, just bias against country of origin.
If you have read some of what these types post online, you'll know that they will pinpoint "only" india born Indians. Or so they say. There are plenty of stories of them discriminating against local Indians too.

Same type will moan about how Asians (read east Asians) are treated poorly in western countries.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by malcontent » Thu, 21 Jul 2022 3:58 pm

smoulder wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 1:17 am
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:49 am
therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:29 am
So.. if you said I'm racist. Racist lor. I will not rent my house to them. I have enough.
Since when is PRC a race? I am guessing you would view an ethic Chinese or ethnic Indian who are born & raised in another country differently? You are only guilty of stereotyping… i.e. assuming everyone from PRC and India is like that. That is not racism, just bias against country of origin.
If you have read some of what these types post online, you'll know that they will pinpoint "only" india born Indians. Or so they say. There are plenty of stories of them discriminating against local Indians too.

Same type will moan about how Asians (read east Asians) are treated poorly in western countries.
I would say the US is more xenophobic than racist. Generally, anyone who doesn’t act or speak like an American can expect to get treated worse or ostracized… at best. Being another race only makes you a suspect. However, once people know (or believe) you are an American, how they view you and approach you often changes - can be night and day. In the rare case it doesn’t, then they probably are genuinely racist.

This is especially true if the speaking/acting is considered rude or out of line by American standards. I’ve definitely seen a clash of cultures in these situations. The old “when in Rome” saying comes to mind, it’s true no matter what country, to varying extents.

Even when I go back to the US, I have to adjust several aspects of how I behave… some stuff that is just common behavior here doesn’t go down well there, at all… doesn’t matter what race you are! Just take how drivers here lay on the horn for an extended time, that might even get you shot. LOL.
Every great and deep difficulty bears in itself its own solution. It forces us to change our thinking in order to find it - Niels Bohr

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by smoulder » Thu, 21 Jul 2022 4:36 pm

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 3:58 pm
smoulder wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 1:17 am
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:49 am


Since when is PRC a race? I am guessing you would view an ethic Chinese or ethnic Indian who are born & raised in another country differently? You are only guilty of stereotyping… i.e. assuming everyone from PRC and India is like that. That is not racism, just bias against country of origin.
If you have read some of what these types post online, you'll know that they will pinpoint "only" india born Indians. Or so they say. There are plenty of stories of them discriminating against local Indians too.

Same type will moan about how Asians (read east Asians) are treated poorly in western countries.
I would say the US is more xenophobic than racist. Generally, anyone who doesn’t act or speak like an American can expect to get treated worse or ostracized… at best. Being another race only makes you a suspect. However, once people know (or believe) you are an American, how they view you and approach you often changes - can be night and day. In the rare case it doesn’t, then they probably are genuinely racist.

This is especially true if the speaking/acting is considered rude or out of line by American standards. I’ve definitely seen a clash of cultures in these situations. The old “when in Rome” saying comes to mind, it’s true no matter what country, to varying extents.

Even when I go back to the US, I have to adjust several aspects of how I behave… some stuff that is just common behavior here doesn’t go down well there, at all… doesn’t matter what race you are! Just take how drivers here lay on the horn for an extended time, that might even get you shot. LOL.
I guess you are responding to the last sentence in my post?

Regardless of the semantics (is it racism or xenophobia or something else), the more pertinent point I'm making here is not whether people in the US and other countries are bigots or racist or whatever. It is this - the people who are bigoted to certain groups here in Singapore never think about how they could be at the receiving end elsewhere. The mentality is that they are faultless. It's always someone else's fault. When I'm bigoted, it's because that ah neh sucks. When I'm mistreated by that ang moh, it's that ang moh who sucks, not me.

Here's the thing - you lose your right to moan about being a victim when you are the aggressor to someone else.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 22 Jul 2022 2:26 am

smoulder wrote:
Mon, 18 Jul 2022 8:52 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 18 Jul 2022 4:38 am
rockstargirl wrote:
Mon, 11 Jul 2022 2:48 pm


As someone mentioned above, percentages are just applicable for renting out entire apartments - where this turns discriminatory is for sub-letting. I wasn't sure if there is any mandate on that as well. The sad part I have noticed is most are left on their own or with house-help and lonely. Since most of elderly population can make good use of rental income, change of policies can be really beneficial for them from both financial/social aspects.
When you say social, do you mean in the sense that they’ll be able to interact with renters from other ethnic groups? Because if that’s the case I’d argue that most members of the elderly in Singapore are pretty close minded and conservative and would rather stick to people who they deem as “their own”, whatever that may mean for them. I don’t think policy changes would benefit them socially, as they wouldn’t be receptive to these benefits at all.
I think that in theory the ethnic quota policy was to encourage different races to live more closely with each other.

How well has it worked? I'm not sure - maybe it worked to some extent. For instance, it may be one of the reasons why we don't have racial riots like the type that would happen in the early days of independence. There is also a growing trend of inter racial dating and marriage. I'm guessing that SMS will probably tell us about how that last one is an unexpected and unplanned consequence of the racial harmony policy :D

Yes, there are still many old timers who are cannot and won't change. To add on, there are many younger generation ones who have already been indoctrinated. But at least there has been some progress.

By the way, it's not all rosy and cozy with the hdb policy. The majority race has a harder time buying, but it is easier to sell. The minorities on the other hand have a hard time selling, but can buy more easily.
Right. I know that we could debate the effectiveness of the ethnic integration policy endlessly, but there’s no way it could ever be perfect. I’d say at the very least it’s done it’s job of preventing the formation of racial enclaves, and that’s worth something.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 22 Jul 2022 2:27 am

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:49 am
therat wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 10:29 am
So.. if you said I'm racist. Racist lor. I will not rent my house to them. I have enough.
Since when is PRC a race? I am guessing you would view an ethic Chinese or ethnic Indian who are born & raised in another country differently? You are only guilty of stereotyping… i.e. assuming everyone from PRC and India is like that. That is not racism, just bias against country of origin.
Actually, you’d be surprised. I know plenty of people who say China born Chinese as entirely different from local Chinese. Whether it’s racism/xenophobia or just plain stereotyping, they do see a difference.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 22 Jul 2022 2:31 am

malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 3:58 pm
smoulder wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 1:17 am
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:49 am


Since when is PRC a race? I am guessing you would view an ethic Chinese or ethnic Indian who are born & raised in another country differently? You are only guilty of stereotyping… i.e. assuming everyone from PRC and India is like that. That is not racism, just bias against country of origin.
If you have read some of what these types post online, you'll know that they will pinpoint "only" india born Indians. Or so they say. There are plenty of stories of them discriminating against local Indians too.

Same type will moan about how Asians (read east Asians) are treated poorly in western countries.
I would say the US is more xenophobic than racist. Generally, anyone who doesn’t act or speak like an American can expect to get treated worse or ostracized… at best. Being another race only makes you a suspect. However, once people know (or believe) you are an American, how they view you and approach you often changes - can be night and day. In the rare case it doesn’t, then they probably are genuinely racist.

This is especially true if the speaking/acting is considered rude or out of line by American standards. I’ve definitely seen a clash of cultures in these situations. The old “when in Rome” saying comes to mind, it’s true no matter what country, to varying extents.

Even when I go back to the US, I have to adjust several aspects of how I behave… some stuff that is just common behavior here doesn’t go down well there, at all… doesn’t matter what race you are! Just take how drivers here lay on the horn for an extended time, that might even get you shot. LOL.
Right! A lot of our behavior here wouldn’t fly there and vice versa. Here we bark a lot but there’s no bite. In the US where guns are legal you make every move with that in mind.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by Lisafuller » Fri, 22 Jul 2022 2:32 am

smoulder wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 4:36 pm
malcontent wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 3:58 pm
smoulder wrote:
Thu, 21 Jul 2022 1:17 am

If you have read some of what these types post online, you'll know that they will pinpoint "only" india born Indians. Or so they say. There are plenty of stories of them discriminating against local Indians too.

Same type will moan about how Asians (read east Asians) are treated poorly in western countries.
I would say the US is more xenophobic than racist. Generally, anyone who doesn’t act or speak like an American can expect to get treated worse or ostracized… at best. Being another race only makes you a suspect. However, once people know (or believe) you are an American, how they view you and approach you often changes - can be night and day. In the rare case it doesn’t, then they probably are genuinely racist.

This is especially true if the speaking/acting is considered rude or out of line by American standards. I’ve definitely seen a clash of cultures in these situations. The old “when in Rome” saying comes to mind, it’s true no matter what country, to varying extents.

Even when I go back to the US, I have to adjust several aspects of how I behave… some stuff that is just common behavior here doesn’t go down well there, at all… doesn’t matter what race you are! Just take how drivers here lay on the horn for an extended time, that might even get you shot. LOL.
I guess you are responding to the last sentence in my post?

Regardless of the semantics (is it racism or xenophobia or something else), the more pertinent point I'm making here is not whether people in the US and other countries are bigots or racist or whatever. It is this - the people who are bigoted to certain groups here in Singapore never think about how they could be at the receiving end elsewhere. The mentality is that they are faultless. It's always someone else's fault. When I'm bigoted, it's because that ah neh sucks. When I'm mistreated by that ang moh, it's that ang moh who sucks, not me.

Here's the thing - you lose your right to moan about being a victim when you are the aggressor to someone else.
You’re exactly right, it’s such hypocritical behavior. You can’t complain about being treated poorly when you treat others poorly when given the chance.

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Re: Racist behaviour for subletting HDB owned apartments

Post by rockstargirl » Tue, 02 Aug 2022 5:47 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 18 Jul 2022 4:38 am
rockstargirl wrote:
Mon, 11 Jul 2022 2:48 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Mon, 20 Jun 2022 11:28 pm


8 or 11% doesn’t seem like very much, so it would probably be fair to say that while there are a few renting with these quotas in mind, most are probably just cherry picking their preferred race. Although I do believe most renters are foreigners so chances are it may be inevitable to have to turn down a larger number of foreign renters.
As someone mentioned above, percentages are just applicable for renting out entire apartments - where this turns discriminatory is for sub-letting. I wasn't sure if there is any mandate on that as well. The sad part I have noticed is most are left on their own or with house-help and lonely. Since most of elderly population can make good use of rental income, change of policies can be really beneficial for them from both financial/social aspects.
When you say social, do you mean in the sense that they’ll be able to interact with renters from other ethnic groups? Because if that’s the case I’d argue that most members of the elderly in Singapore are pretty close minded and conservative and would rather stick to people who they deem as “their own”, whatever that may mean for them. I don’t think policy changes would benefit them socially, as they wouldn’t be receptive to these benefits at all.
Not exactly @Lisafuller. As I have noticed, most of Singaporean elderly people are quite friendly and usually end up alone in their apartments or if in good economic condition, left with just helpers. During lock-downs, I noticed many of them were in desperate need of help for basics prior to launch of vaccination - which could have been easily managed apart from sending volunteers if they had some young people living around them or ideally with them regardless of race. I am not sure if issue lies with rental economy or agents or landlords, but sensed that this could easily be fixed.

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