PR approval chances 2022

[truthhurts1]

High income was never a criteria for PR. If that was the case, your coffeeshop uncle/auntie would have zero chance.

PR is for those who are going to sink roots here, not for those who will jet off at the next opportunity. Yes, you must be able to support yourself but earning 6 digits is a bonus… And most of the time these people are staying in expat enclaves, not really integrating into SG. How is that considered assimilating?

Bro why do you assume that people making 6 figures higher than 180K like us do not integrate??

I have singaporean friends only, I do not even know any indian people here .. I eat at the hawker centre most of my meals,
Can you tell me how to integrate further and how does the ICA know without an interview based on some few papers and documents of the PR application.. Thank you.

[MOCHS]

^ I’m not a dude. High income earners do have the tendency to stay in condos or other private housing. Sometimes these places attract a certain demographic like expats and in turn, can then into a little expat bubble.

Of course, there are some that don’t do that but it does seem like majority of the time, they do.

Integrating further usually means marrying a citizen or PR.

[smoulder]

High income was never a criteria for PR. If that was the case, your coffeeshop uncle/auntie would have zero chance.

PR is for those who are going to sink roots here, not for those who will jet off at the next opportunity. Yes, you must be able to support yourself but earning 6 digits is a bonus… And most of the time these people are staying in expat enclaves, not really integrating into SG. How is that considered assimilating?

Bro why do you assume that people making 6 figures higher than 180K like us do not integrate??

I have singaporean friends only, I do not even know any indian people here .. I eat at the hawker centre most of my meals,
Can you tell me how to integrate further and how does the ICA know without an interview based on some few papers and documents of the PR application.. Thank you.

This has been answered many times.

Integration cannot be measured through an interview. They are not that stupid.

They most likely look for other signs. Malaysians for instance get easy approvals even with lower salaries because they come "pre integrated". For the rest, if you tick enough of other boxes, a "simple" matter of being in a stable marriage with a citizen or perhaps a PR might get you over the line - in your case, the ICA has no way of knowing that you are eating only Nasi lemak and mee pok, chatting with coffee shop aunties and dating a Malaysian SPR. Had you taken a "risk" and tied the knot, the outcome might have been different.

Also, to your comment that it's not necessary that expats earning 180 K and above don't all live in bubbles - there are probably exceptions, but look around you. There are plenty of people living in expat bubbles - Indians, Caucasians and Filipinos are the most obvious ones that come to mind.

[simple_guy]

I think its subjective and may depend on nature too. I just want to put my view, when I came here I was surprised to see that in public transport everyone is busy looking at their on phone. I have a nature where I want to talk to a fellow passenger and know about each other. How to do that?...of course after COVID situation got changed. But still I want to say hello and hi when I am walking and see people. Moreover, kids have more social circle and they meet diversity of people here in school. Is that not a part of Integration? I don't agree that marrying a citizen or PR can change nature of a person.

[the observer]

High income was never a criteria for PR. If that was the case, your coffeeshop uncle/auntie would have zero chance.

PR is for those who are going to sink roots here, not for those who will jet off at the next opportunity. Yes, you must be able to support yourself but earning 6 digits is a bonus… And most of the time these people are staying in expat enclaves, not really integrating into SG. How is that considered assimilating?

Bro why do you assume that people making 6 figures higher than 180K like us do not integrate??

I have singaporean friends only, I do not even know any indian people here .. I eat at the hawker centre most of my meals,
Can you tell me how to integrate further and how does the ICA know without an interview based on some few papers and documents of the PR application.. Thank you.

This has been answered many times.

Integration cannot be measured through an interview. They are not that stupid.

They most likely look for other signs. Malaysians for instance get easy approvals even with lower salaries because they come "pre integrated". For the rest, if you tick enough of other boxes, a "simple" matter of being in a stable marriage with a citizen or perhaps a PR might get you over the line - in your case, the ICA has no way of knowing that you are eating only Nasi lemak and mee pok, chatting with coffee shop aunties and dating a Malaysian SPR. Had you taken a "risk" and tied the knot, the outcome might have been different.

Also, to your comment that it's not necessary that expats earning 180 K and above don't all live in bubbles - there are probably exceptions, but look around you. There are plenty of people living in expat bubbles - Indians, Caucasians and Filipinos are the most obvious ones that come to mind.

Most Indian colleagues that I know, 8/10, enter into pre arranged marriages that their parents set up. So, marrying a local isn’t an option.

[smoulder]

Bro why do you assume that people making 6 figures higher than 180K like us do not integrate??

I have singaporean friends only, I do not even know any indian people here .. I eat at the hawker centre most of my meals,
Can you tell me how to integrate further and how does the ICA know without an interview based on some few papers and documents of the PR application.. Thank you.

This has been answered many times.

Integration cannot be measured through an interview. They are not that stupid.

They most likely look for other signs. Malaysians for instance get easy approvals even with lower salaries because they come "pre integrated". For the rest, if you tick enough of other boxes, a "simple" matter of being in a stable marriage with a citizen or perhaps a PR might get you over the line - in your case, the ICA has no way of knowing that you are eating only Nasi lemak and mee pok, chatting with coffee shop aunties and dating a Malaysian SPR. Had you taken a "risk" and tied the knot, the outcome might have been different.

Also, to your comment that it's not necessary that expats earning 180 K and above don't all live in bubbles - there are probably exceptions, but look around you. There are plenty of people living in expat bubbles - Indians, Caucasians and Filipinos are the most obvious ones that come to mind.

Most Indian colleagues that I know, 8/10, enter into pre arranged marriages that their parents set up. So, marrying a local isn’t an option.

I'm Indian. I have married a non Indian. And well, unfortunately, like it or not, apparently the ICA is probably looking at this as a criterion. They don't care who cannot get approval from their parents on whom to marry. If that disqualifies a bunch of folks - that's just how it is. What they are reacting to apparently is the mood on the street - the mood of citizens.

[smoulder]

I think its subjective and may depend on nature too. I just want to put my view, when I came here I was surprised to see that in public transport everyone is busy looking at their on phone. I have a nature where I want to talk to a fellow passenger and know about each other. How to do that?...of course after COVID situation got changed. But still I want to say hello and hi when I am walking and see people. Moreover, kids have more social circle and they meet diversity of people here in school. Is that not a part of Integration? I don't agree that marrying a citizen or PR can change nature of a person.

You can disagree all you want to, but you just have to look at the profiles of those who are being approved to deduce that it's apparently what matters to the ICA who make the decisions.

[simple_guy]

I think its subjective and may depend on nature too. I just want to put my view, when I came here I was surprised to see that in public transport everyone is busy looking at their on phone. I have a nature where I want to talk to a fellow passenger and know about each other. How to do that?...of course after COVID situation got changed. But still I want to say hello and hi when I am walking and see people. Moreover, kids have more social circle and they meet diversity of people here in school. Is that not a part of Integration? I don't agree that marrying a citizen or PR can change nature of a person.

You can disagree all you want to, but you just have to look at the profiles of those who are being approved to deduce that it's apparently what matters to the ICA who make the decisions.

Agree, Smoulder! Its what matters to the ICA and not what I and you say!

[smoulder]

I think its subjective and may depend on nature too. I just want to put my view, when I came here I was surprised to see that in public transport everyone is busy looking at their on phone. I have a nature where I want to talk to a fellow passenger and know about each other. How to do that?...of course after COVID situation got changed. But still I want to say hello and hi when I am walking and see people. Moreover, kids have more social circle and they meet diversity of people here in school. Is that not a part of Integration? I don't agree that marrying a citizen or PR can change nature of a person.

You can disagree all you want to, but you just have to look at the profiles of those who are being approved to deduce that it's apparently what matters to the ICA who make the decisions.

Agree, Smoulder! Its what matters to the ICA and not what I and you say!

Well, anecdotal evidence suggests that what I'm saying is probably what they think. Similarly it logically follows from the fact that they have a separate application category called "family ties". If that isn't enough indication about what matters to them, then I don't know what is.

[simple_guy]

I think its all about priority...of course they will give priority to spouse of local people!

[sundaymorningstaple]

[rant]
Singapore has had a declining TFR since I came here 40 years ago. It's been in the bottom 3 world wide for over 30 years and been at the bottom a lot of it. Without a core of Singapore citizens the country will probably lose the party in control by a freak election (there is NOT a viable opposition here that could fill their shoes (not saying they are always right but history so far has shown the world it can work). So they have found that demographically they like the CMIO white paper and also cater to all four major languages with English being the Language of Government (Not Chinese like one would think). However, Due to the World's lowest TFR that can only be continued with monitored & metered immigration in order to keep the demographic numbers consistent and the voters on the books. This is a movable goalpost as it were. It has to be balanced carefully with the number of citizen deaths, emigrants, and future workforce projections and carefully balanced by also taking into consideration the PR who only abuse the system. They will give out 30K PR's per year because of a 35% PR giveup rate so that they can hopefully get the 20K new citizens it needs to maintain the demographic balances and increase the SGC population as well. The governments prime objective is their local workforce and without babies, they cannot do that except by importing those who are with family or better yet marry into local families where the offspring of said union will produce new SGC (not potential SGCs) But that is the gamble with giving a PR. This also helps to explain why we go on about getting PR and then keeping the kids in the International School instead of transferring them to the local system (sends ICA the wrong signals).

Singapore does not work on feelings at all. They do everything pragmatically and occasionally get it wrong but over the long haul it's worked pretty well. [/rant]

[NYY1]

[rant]
Singapore has had a declining TFR since I came here 40 years ago. It's been in the bottom 3 world wide for over 30 years and been at the bottom a lot of it. Without a core of Singapore citizens the country will probably lose the party in control by a freak election (there is NOT a viable opposition here that could fill their shoes (not saying they are always right but history so far has shown the world it can work). So they have found that demographically they like the CMIO white paper and also cater to all four major languages with English being the Language of Government (Not Chinese like one would think). However, Due to the World's lowest TFR that can only be continued with monitored & metered immigration in order to keep the demographic numbers consistent and the voters on the books. This is a movable goalpost as it were. It has to be balanced carefully with the number of citizen deaths, emigrants, and future workforce projections and carefully balanced by also taking into consideration the PR who only abuse the system. They will give out 30K PR's per year because of a 35% PR giveup rate so that they can hopefully get the 20K new citizens it needs to maintain the demographic balances and increase the SGC population as well. The governments prime objective is their local workforce and without babies, they cannot do that except by importing those who are with family or better yet marry into local families where the offspring of said union will produce new SGC (not potential SGCs) But that is the gamble with giving a PR. This also helps to explain why we go on about getting PR and then keeping the kids in the International School instead of transferring them to the local system (sends ICA the wrong signals).

Singapore does not work on feelings at all. They do everything pragmatically and occasionally get it wrong but over the long haul it's worked pretty well. [/rant]

Rant or a non-emotional assessment of the situation ? Not just this topic but we can learn a lot when we understand why someone is doing what they are doing. Doesn't mean we agree or disagree with it, but we need to look at it (anything) from the decision maker's point of view.

Nearly all polices, everywhere, have pros and cons. Issue is that most people can only evaluate things based on whether they are favourable or unfavourable for them at that moment in time.

On the PR churn, I look at it a bit differently. On a base of ~500k they issue ~30k and convert ~20k. ~10k or 2% of the base is lost due to whatever reason (old age, gave up to move elsewhere, returned home permanently, etc). Looked at this way, I don't think the churn is very high (vs 1/3 to 35%). Although truth be told, I don't know where the 10k is coming from; there could be a concentration among those that were recently issued (relatively speaking). The question is more whether the (eventual) SC yield has improved in the last decade plus.

[singaporeflyer]

[rant]
Singapore has had a declining TFR since I came here 40 years ago. It's been in the bottom 3 world wide for over 30 years and been at the bottom a lot of it. Without a core of Singapore citizens the country will probably lose the party in control by a freak election (there is NOT a viable opposition here that could fill their shoes (not saying they are always right but history so far has shown the world it can work). So they have found that demographically they like the CMIO white paper and also cater to all four major languages with English being the Language of Government (Not Chinese like one would think). However, Due to the World's lowest TFR that can only be continued with monitored & metered immigration in order to keep the demographic numbers consistent and the voters on the books. This is a movable goalpost as it were. It has to be balanced carefully with the number of citizen deaths, emigrants, and future workforce projections and carefully balanced by also taking into consideration the PR who only abuse the system. They will give out 30K PR's per year because of a 35% PR giveup rate so that they can hopefully get the 20K new citizens it needs to maintain the demographic balances and increase the SGC population as well. The governments prime objective is their local workforce and without babies, they cannot do that except by importing those who are with family or better yet marry into local families where the offspring of said union will produce new SGC (not potential SGCs) But that is the gamble with giving a PR. This also helps to explain why we go on about getting PR and then keeping the kids in the International School instead of transferring them to the local system (sends ICA the wrong signals).

Singapore does not work on feelings at all. They do everything pragmatically and occasionally get it wrong but over the long haul it's worked pretty well. [/rant]

Rant or a non-emotional assessment of the situation ? Not just this topic but we can learn a lot when we understand why someone is doing what they are doing. Doesn't mean we agree or disagree with it, but we need to look at it (anything) from the decision maker's point of view.

Nearly all polices, everywhere, have pros and cons. Issue is that most people can only evaluate things based on whether they are favourable or unfavourable for them at that moment in time.

On the PR churn, I look at it a bit differently. On a base of ~500k they issue ~30k and convert ~20k. ~10k or 2% of the base is lost due to whatever reason (old age, gave up to move elsewhere, returned home permanently, etc). Looked at this way, I don't think the churn is very high (vs 1/3 to 35%). Although truth be told, I don't know where the 10k is coming from; there could be a concentration among those that were recently issued (relatively speaking). The question is more whether the (eventual) SC yield has improved in the last decade plus.

https://www.population.gov.sg/files/med ... f-2022.pdf
Page 17 and 18 has the answers that you are asking

10K are those who are PR's but still SG does not want them as citizens.

[sundaymorningstaple]

This one is the main reason for our family advices here...

"Supporting marriage and parenthood continues to be our priority. While the Government
has a suite of measures to support Singaporeans in starting and raising families, as a
society we must all do our part to build a Singapore that is Made For Families."

SF.....
10K are those who are PR's but still SG does not want them as citizens.

If that were the case and not what I espoused then the 500K base figure would continue to rise if they kept give out 30K PRs annually and only 20K SGCs. I think giving up PR & a much smaller deaths figure would be what accounts for most of the 10K as the Base 500K has stayed relatively the same over the years. The balance of PR in the base of 500K are those that the government doesn't want as SGC's. Or should I say a mixture of both as a lot are PR's by choice with no desire to leave or take up SGC (like me-I've been part of the base for over a quarter of a century).

[NYY1]

https://www.population.gov.sg/files/med ... f-2022.pdf
Page 17 and 18 has the answers that you are asking

10K are those who are PR's but still SG does not want them as citizens.

Page 17 and 18 does not answer where the 10k decline in PRs come from.

~500k base + 30k issued - 20k converted - 10k lost = ~500k. That's how it was excluding the dip and ramp back up around COVID.