Any advice on gap years?

[NYY1]

Here's another reality check on the Singapore cohort. For IBDP, a score of 42 is pretty much good enough for anywhere in the world? ACS(I) alone had 365 kids that scored 42-45 points last year (2021). ACS(I)'s intake, both at PSLE (via ACS(I) and MGS) and JAE (O Level), is competitive with the other larger JCs. I.e. grades, both here and in the US, are a commodity...

Exactly. While the IB is, admittedly, rigorous, it’s difficult to compare a 42 on the IB with an AABB or AAAB at a levels. Even though they have arguably performed the same, the IB student will be looked upon more favorably because the score appears better.

Yes, IB is calibrated globally while the A Level is only calibrated nationally. ACS(I) has always had a strong following among locals from the three affiliated primary schools (ACS(P), ACS(J), MGS). Plenty of kids qualify to go elsewhere in Sec 1 but stay with the family. More and more, IB is gaining traction. I don't believe the difference in the curriculum/education is as different as people make it out to be, but the average IB Score itself (from ACS(I)) is more valuable than the average A Level Score (from comparable JCs).

AABB is going to be like 86 UAS RP? That's like half the cohort (or more) at RJC and HCJC or ~1,200 students combined. Add the 365 from ACS(I), 100+ from NUSH, and hundreds of others from the other IP JCs (many students here will be on par with those from other more famous schools) and one can see the depth of the potential applicant pool (although obviously not all students here will apply to US unis).

[NYY1]

Personally, I believe that standardized testing helps to up the chances of local students who may not have the most pristine transcripts. It’s a well-known fact that schools here are incredibly harsh with the marking despite the fact that classes are much tougher here than they are elsewhere. Standardized tests help to alleviate any doubt about one’s academic abilities which is why I’ve always been such a huge proponent of them.

I think the standardized tests also help some US domestic kids that come from unknown schools that didn't offer as many AP courses, etc. Similar to above, it validates the student's academic ability even though his/her transcript may not be as strong. At least this is MIT's argument.

For the Singapore local kids, I think the (harsh) reality is that those who are applying for certain US schools are likely to have pretty strong transcripts (and test scores) irrespective of the curriculum and grading differences? So in the end, a student is still competing against all of those most similar to him/her; i.e. other Singaporean students. For better or worse, each uni is only going to take in so many kids from Singapore and this could be as few as single digits per year (some likely low single digits and some other schools in the low double digits).

Also to help those who have been homeschooled. You may be right, but either way you can’t deny that a good score will always be a positive.

Yes, I have never said don't take the SAT. I would strongly suggest taking it, but unfortunately I think doing well on it simply keeps you in the running.

[Lisafuller]

I think the standardized tests also help some US domestic kids that come from unknown schools that didn't offer as many AP courses, etc. Similar to above, it validates the student's academic ability even though his/her transcript may not be as strong. At least this is MIT's argument.

For the Singapore local kids, I think the (harsh) reality is that those who are applying for certain US schools are likely to have pretty strong transcripts (and test scores) irrespective of the curriculum and grading differences? So in the end, a student is still competing against all of those most similar to him/her; i.e. other Singaporean students. For better or worse, each uni is only going to take in so many kids from Singapore and this could be as few as single digits per year (some likely low single digits and some other schools in the low double digits).

Also to help those who have been homeschooled. You may be right, but either way you can’t deny that a good score will always be a positive.

Yes, I have never said don't take the SAT. I would strongly suggest taking it, but unfortunately I think doing well on it simply keeps you in the running.

I take a more optimistic view - I believe doing exceptionally well will always advance you.

[Lisafuller]

Here's another reality check on the Singapore cohort. For IBDP, a score of 42 is pretty much good enough for anywhere in the world? ACS(I) alone had 365 kids that scored 42-45 points last year (2021). ACS(I)'s intake, both at PSLE (via ACS(I) and MGS) and JAE (O Level), is competitive with the other larger JCs. I.e. grades, both here and in the US, are a commodity...

Exactly. While the IB is, admittedly, rigorous, it’s difficult to compare a 42 on the IB with an AABB or AAAB at a levels. Even though they have arguably performed the same, the IB student will be looked upon more favorably because the score appears better.

Yes, IB is calibrated globally while the A Level is only calibrated nationally. ACS(I) has always had a strong following among locals from the three affiliated primary schools (ACS(P), ACS(J), MGS). Plenty of kids qualify to go elsewhere in Sec 1 but stay with the family. More and more, IB is gaining traction. I don't believe the difference in the curriculum/education is as different as people make it out to be, but the average IB Score itself (from ACS(I)) is more valuable than the average A Level Score (from comparable JCs).

AABB is going to be like 86 UAS RP? That's like half the cohort (or more) at RJC and HCJC or ~1,200 students combined. Add the 365 from ACS(I), 100+ from NUSH, and hundreds of others from the other IP JCs (many students here will be on par with those from other more famous schools) and one can see the depth of the potential applicant pool (although obviously not all students here will apply to US unis).

Excellent insights. Fully agree that the IB score is always more valuable than A level.

[NYY1]

Some more on SAT Test Optional for the current admissions cycle.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/careers ... cb290a997b

[malcontent]

I’m contemplating a plan B for my daughter. Looking at the enrollment stats for UC schools for 2022, there was a rather dramatic shift toward in-state students; out-of-state and international students paid the price, in some cases their admit rate was halved!

Considering this, together with the fact that my daughter has absolutely no direction in terms of her major (which can impact which schools she might apply to), she could take a gap year AND we could establish state residency during that time… so that when she reapplies the following year, she should have her pick of any school she wants.

Not sure if this will work as well as I think it might, but seems like it’s worth a try.

Also, delaying her entry into college will increase the overlap time, when both of our kids will be attending college at the same time - which is more favorable from a financial aid perspective.

[NYY1]

I’m contemplating a plan B for my daughter. Looking at the enrollment stats for UC schools for 2022, there was a rather dramatic shift toward in-state students; out-of-state and international students paid the price, in some cases their admit rate was halved!

Considering this, together with the fact that my daughter has absolutely no direction in terms of her major (which can impact which schools she might apply to), she could take a gap year AND we could establish state residency during that time… so that when she reapplies the following year, she should have her pick of any school she wants.

Not sure if this will work as well as I think it might, but seems like it’s worth a try.

Also, delaying her entry into college will increase the overlap time, when both of our kids will be attending college at the same time - which is more favorable from a financial aid perspective.

I think the critical question is whether she will still be put up against the other Singapore applicants (both nationally and whatever JC she comes from). Given that the in-state division won't recognize the school or the year 11 (and 12) classes, I think hard to say whether a 4.0 equivalent and whatever test score (if they are even looking at them any more) will fast track her through (maybe it will)?

Also keep in mind that university admissions to schools like UCLA and Berkeley (if these two are included in your "pick of any school she wants") have long ago moved on from just transcripts and tests scores. Hence, even if one can get into the in-state bucket (and avoid the comparisons to the other Singapore educated kids), I wouldn't assume getting the admissions letter is a walk in the park.

But generally, it's not a bad plan if the kid doesn't know what she wants to do (and is borderline running on fumes from the local system). Personally, I believe one is better off taking a gap year straight vs. applying twice (to the same school(s)), but this is just my own feel (and I'm sure there are some success cases on the second try).

[malcontent]

I think the critical question is whether she will still be put up against the other Singapore applicants (both nationally and whatever JC she comes from). Given that the in-state division won't recognize the school or the year 11 (and 12) classes, I think hard to say whether a 4.0 equivalent and whatever test score (if they are even looking at them any more) will fast track her through (maybe it will)?

Also keep in mind that university admissions to schools like UCLA and Berkeley (if these two are included in your "pick of any school she wants") have long ago moved on from just transcripts and tests scores. Hence, even if one can get into the in-state bucket (and avoid the comparisons to the other Singapore educated kids), I wouldn't assume getting the admissions letter is a walk in the park.

But generally, it's not a bad plan if the kid doesn't know what she wants to do (and is borderline running on fumes from the local system). Personally, I believe one is better off taking a gap year straight vs. applying twice (to the same school(s)), but this is just my own feel (and I'm sure there are some success cases on the second try).

She will compete with other US citizens in the out-of-state pool (not the international student pool) which could include a small handful who are Singapore based. The problem with many schools (including SAS and other International Schools here) is grade inflation - - this puts her on an very uneven footing because she has a real A and her counterparts only have an A on paper - - but both will be counted as equal in the eyes of college admissions. That said, competing in the out-of-state pool is still better than the international pool, where acceptance rates have fallen to crazy low single digits.

I would say UCLA and USC are probably her top two at this point. We did campus visits in December and Berkeley was crossed off the list — the campus is old, tired and neglected, and the surrounding town is ghetto, with gated up windows, graffiti and sketchy looking people on the streets — thanks, but no thanks. We all agreed that SoCal, while not perfect, was still better overall, and UCLA is highly attractive, USC less so, but still acceptable if nothing else.

[NYY1]

I think the critical question is whether she will still be put up against the other Singapore applicants (both nationally and whatever JC she comes from). Given that the in-state division won't recognize the school or the year 11 (and 12) classes, I think hard to say whether a 4.0 equivalent and whatever test score (if they are even looking at them any more) will fast track her through (maybe it will)?

Also keep in mind that university admissions to schools like UCLA and Berkeley (if these two are included in your "pick of any school she wants") have long ago moved on from just transcripts and tests scores. Hence, even if one can get into the in-state bucket (and avoid the comparisons to the other Singapore educated kids), I wouldn't assume getting the admissions letter is a walk in the park.

But generally, it's not a bad plan if the kid doesn't know what she wants to do (and is borderline running on fumes from the local system). Personally, I believe one is better off taking a gap year straight vs. applying twice (to the same school(s)), but this is just my own feel (and I'm sure there are some success cases on the second try).

She will compete with other US citizens in the out-of-state pool (not the international student pool) which could include a small handful who are Singapore based. The problem with many schools (including SAS and other International Schools here) is grade inflation - - this puts her on an very uneven footing because she has a real A and her counterparts only have an A on paper - - but both will be counted as equal in the eyes of college admissions. That said, competing in the out-of-state pool is still better than the international pool, where acceptance rates have fallen to crazy low single digits.

I would say UCLA and USC are probably her top two at this point. We did campus visits in December and Berkeley was crossed off the list — the campus is old, tired and neglected, and the surrounding town is ghetto, with gated up windows, graffiti and sketchy looking people on the streets — thanks, but no thanks. We all agreed that SoCal, while not perfect, was still better overall, and UCLA is highly attractive, USC less so, but still acceptable if nothing else.

Excluding differences with major/specific school within the uni, I also prefer UCLA to the other two (although all acceptable if looking around this range).

Is the above if she applies directly during/after Year 12 (US Resident educated abroad = domestic but not in-state applicant)? I thought the issue is whether you take a gap year and establish residency in CA? If so, how is one still "out of state?" My question was even if later become "in-state," the student doesn't compare to the other CA residents (curriculum, etc) so how does one get judged?

To me, if one has the grades covered, then the grade inflation elsewhere is not the main concern (this is more of an issue if the transcripts generated here are not as clean). Like you said, they are viewed equal. And even if one is "harder," there are many ways the other students can be on similar footing academically. Or just look at SAT scores (which maybe the UCs are no longer doing), which approximate ability to do well in college and are agnostic to the differences in secondary/HS curriculum one was able to take.

[malcontent]

Excluding differences with major/specific school within the uni, I also prefer UCLA to the other two (although all acceptable if looking around this range).

Is the above if she applies directly during/after Year 12 (US Resident educated abroad = domestic but not in-state applicant)? I thought the issue is whether you take a gap year and establish residency in CA? If so, how is one still "out of state?" My question was even if later become "in-state," the student doesn't compare to the other CA residents (curriculum, etc) so how does one get judged?

To me, if one has the grades covered, then the grade inflation elsewhere is not the main concern (this is more of an issue if the transcripts generated here are not as clean). Like you said, they are viewed equal. And even if one is "harder," there are many ways the other students can be on similar footing academically. Or just look at SAT scores (which maybe the UCs are no longer doing), which approximate ability to do well in college and are agnostic to the differences in secondary/HS curriculum one was able to take.

Yes, she is in year 12 (JC2) now and will be applying this fall (plan A) where she will be in the out-of-state pool hoping for admission in the fall of 2024. The question is what should we do in case she can’t get into the school she “deserves” because of the in-state preference. I only say she deserves it because she can get automatic entry to NUS at this point, which is no easy feat. NUS is ranked quite high globally. The reason for not going to NUS is her brother at SAS is unlikely to have the same post-secondary opportunities locally.

[NYY1]

Yes, she is in year 12 (JC2) now and will be applying this fall (plan A) where she will be in the out-of-state pool hoping for admission in the fall of 2024. The question is what should we do in case she can’t get into the school she “deserves” because of the in-state preference. I only say she deserves it because she can get automatic entry to NUS at this point, which is no easy feat. NUS is ranked quite high globally. The reason for not going to NUS is her brother at SAS is unlikely to have the same post-secondary opportunities locally.

I don't know the answer to that because I don't know how she will be classified/treated the second time around. One option is cast the net wider this fall (or whenever applications are due in early-2024) and take whatever one can get.

I hear what you are saying but the admission processes are two different animals, so is equating a ticket in one to a ticket in the other applicable? Of course, many kids will be competitive in both and some of them will offers from both, but I think it's hard to say they are the same.

Anyways, good luck.

[malcontent]

I don't know the answer to that because I don't know how she will be classified/treated the second time around. One option is cast the net wider this fall (or whenever applications are due in early-2024) and take whatever one can get.

I hear what you are saying but the admission processes are two different animals, so is equating a ticket in one to a ticket in the other applicable? Of course, many kids will be competitive in both and some of them will offers from both, but I think it's hard to say they are the same.

Anyways, good luck.

I don’t see her casting the net lower, she has worked too hard to end up at a school below the top 30. Her cousin from Indo (who did not study nearly as hard or get as good of results) already got into a UC in the top 40.

The only reason she would be denied a spot is because the bar is set lower for in-state students. That seems more fair for students applying from other states, who can apply to their own state schools.

If the only way to get closer to a level playing field is to become a state resident, we can do that — at the same time, maybe she could also take classes in the 2024 summer session at UCLA, earn a few credits and show the school what she’s got.

[NYY1]

I don’t see her casting the net lower, she has worked too hard to end up at a school below the top 30. Her cousin from Indo (who did not study nearly as hard or get as good of results) already got into a UC in the top 40.

The only reason she would be denied a spot is because the bar is set lower for in-state students. That seems more fair for students applying from other states, who can apply to their own state schools.

If the only way to get closer to a level playing field is to become a state resident, we can do that — at the same time, maybe she could also take classes in the 2024 summer session at UCLA, earn a few credits and show the school what she’s got.

US University admissions, especially at highly selective schools, are not just about results (yet it seems like this is the phrase you want to tie to every student as it relates to the admissions outcome).

Do more selective schools generally admit more students with higher academic qualifications and do these students generally have better odds? Absolutely and absolutely. Is this a queuing system like t-score where the highest academic ranking students go first ahead of all others? Unfortunately, not at all. Whether one is educated in Singapore at a prestigious school, in the US, or within the state of CA (at a public or private for the latter two), I wouldn't conclude any student is a lock just based on hard work and results.

Anyways, if you've already decided she deserves a place and schools beyond a certain ranking are below her, there's not much more to discuss. Just apply and see if she gets in (may be the case). If not, deal with plan B then. Good luck!

[malcontent]

US University admissions, especially at highly selective schools, are not just about results (yet it seems like this is the phrase you want to tie to every student as it relates to the admissions outcome).

Do more selective schools generally admit more students with higher academic qualifications and do these students generally have better odds? Absolutely and absolutely. Is this a queuing system like t-score where the highest academic ranking students go first ahead of all others? Unfortunately, not at all. Whether one is educated in Singapore at a prestigious school, in the US, or within the state of CA (at a public or private for the latter two), I wouldn't conclude any student is a lock just based on hard work and results.

Anyways, if you've already decided she deserves a place and schools beyond a certain ranking are below her, there's not much more to discuss. Just apply and see if she gets in (may be the case). If not, deal with plan B then. Good luck!

All good and valid points.

Honestly, I would much prefer rankings were ignored and the only things that mattered was her enjoyment of the college experience and her all round holistic development. I honestly think she needs that (badly) after going through the local system… but what do I know?

Her #1 concern is brand recognition, she wants to attend a big school that is world renown. On the maternal side, there is also the matter of face and expectAsians, and this extends across cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents… all waiting with bated breath with their yardsticks at the ready, just dying to size things up!