New EP Point Based System 2023 onwards. Thoughts?

[sundaymorningstaple]

Btw - talking about open, point-based systems. For my wife I used the official WP SAT tool from MOM - and I discovered something interesting and completely unofficial - if we kept all the details identical but changed the nationality to any other than hers (Malaysian) - it will say S-Pass for that profile/salary - but EP if Malaysian. She got recently a 5yr EP on 4k salary (her first EP).

This has been around for at least 20 years. Malaysians and Singaporean are of the same feathered stock and were all one until 1965. Malaysians assimilate here instantly so the government has always had a different salary tier structure for M'sians. You will not find it in writing anywhere except obliquely as you found out. But it's common knowledge that they have a leg up as it were when applying for S & EP passes. Worst kept secret the MOM has.

[Lisafuller]

This is actually a really good point. When I first moved here I was unmarried, and my first job only paid S$2.3k and I rented a room in an HDB for $450/mo, and I could still save a good % of my salary.

I am married, single income wife is home maker and my daughter goes to International School. Yet, I have managed to save like 50% of my salary throughout my 13 years stay here.

I just reorganized my networth tracker this weekend and here are some interesting stats:

I saved 852k SGD over these years since Jan 2010, cumulative from my salary, prior to that my networth was 87K and I came to SG in Jun 2009. Then the return on investment from my most adhoc poorly managed investments over these years is cumulative 342k.

So 87K+852k+342k = 1281K. This is what I have achieved by staying in Singapore on an EP for 13 years Worth it or not?

Definitely commendable, you’ll live like a king if you ever decide to go back to India. I must say though, that having heard about how frugally you live, it will not be the same experience for somebody else who doesn’t have your level of discipline.

[Lisafuller]

Heres another consideration, Assume job holder makes it through all the hoops mom throw at them and they land a job of 10k
4500 is just the rental for a 2 bed condo these days
Another 4000 grand in living expense assuming a family of 2 or 3 considering inflation, eating out,etc
The balance savings is 1500, hardly worth the effort to move here. I could be wrong but idk just throwing out povs for discussion

The 10k of today is the 6k of 10 years ago. Nobody said you are entitled to a 2 bed condo and a great lifestyle and then great savings too for the salary of 10k. So if you need to save, suck it up and put yourself up in a HDB. Thats what I have been doing. My salary is 10k and then bonus and exployer pension another 2k. So 12k monthly. I spend 2.3k on a 3 bedder HDB, 1k for daughter's school and yet my monthly expense is less than 6k and I save 6k.

I am sure rents will go up next renewal but so will our salaries. I was saving 3k out of 6k 10 years ago and now I am saving 6k out of 12k.

This is just normal inflation jump conditions it works in SG. Rents remain stable for a long time and then suddenly jump. People who have been here very long, like SMS and Malcontent, will know this. In around 2005-06 condos used to rent for 1.5k whole condos! HDBs were not even available for foreigners to rent. Then they suddenly shot up and I know when I came here in 2009, the old timers were complaining how everything is more expensive. But hey, thats how it works. The lower people in the expat value chain get pushed out and higher people move in.

If you see Hong Kong, it is already much more expensive than Singapore and there is no reason why Singapore should lag behind.

Also it is not like rentals are going up only here. They are going up everywhere. We have just had a pandemic and insane amount of money printing and now crazy inflation in most countries, in the US and Europe close to double digits. Europe is not going to have gas for their winter heating! The whole world is in a major crisis.

So hold on there, this will eventually get solved, like it always does. Salaries will go up along with inflation and we will find an equilibrium and then rents will again be stable for a long time.

Agreed you could live a life of stinginess and frugality and downshift to an hdb, thats definitely an option, however i Would then question the logic of moving to singapore if thats the life that said expat is expecting? If not
disappointment sets in
The 2.3K hdb is now 2.9 to 3K btw

My thoughts exactly, this would hardly be the ex-pat experience most would be expecting.

[Lisafuller]

I am married, single income wife is home maker and my daughter goes to International School. Yet, I have managed to save like 50% of my salary throughout my 13 years stay here.

50% savings on a single earner household with a kid in international school is really good.

I used to save 50%, but since we’ve owned a home, I’ve had to treat principle portion of our mortgage as savings.

You’ve been here for quite some time, are you getting close to paying it off?

[Lisafuller]

Btw - talking about open, point-based systems. For my wife I used the official WP SAT tool from MOM - and I discovered something interesting and completely unofficial - if we kept all the details identical but changed the nationality to any other than hers (Malaysian) - it will say S-Pass for that profile/salary - but EP if Malaysian. She got recently a 5yr EP on 4k salary (her first EP).

This has been around for at least 20 years. Malaysians and Singaporean are of the same feathered stock and were all one until 1965. Malaysians assimilate here instantly so the government has always had a different salary tier structure for M'sians. You will not find it in writing anywhere except obliquely as you found out. But it's common knowledge that they have a leg up as it were when applying for S & EP passes. Worst kept secret the MOM has.

Definitely, it’s common knowledge that they are not held to the same standard as everyone else. Though it is undeniable that they tend to assimilate better than anyone else.

[Lisafuller]

Agreed you could live a life of stinginess and frugality and downshift to an hdb, thats definitely an option, however i Would then question the logic of moving to singapore if thats the life that said expat is expecting? If not
disappointment sets in
The 2.3K hdb is now 2.9 to 3K btw

Maybe that is the whole point the said expat came to Singapore in the 1st place, the place they came from wasnt any better, if anything the quality of life in Singapore even with HDB and public transport is way better than in a 3rd world country. The icing on the cake is the said expat can retire 15 years earlier, and then chill at a beach town, what is not to like?

Then the question would have to be where the expert was moving from, if they were moving from somewhere where the quality of life was considerably lower, then living small here would not take much of an adjustment as it would arguably still present a better quality of life than living in the home country. If, on the other hand, said expat was moving from a country in which he enjoyed a very high quality of life, living in a small house and having to take public transport and eat in all the time would certainly come as a surprise.

[malcontent]

I am married, single income wife is home maker and my daughter goes to International School. Yet, I have managed to save like 50% of my salary throughout my 13 years stay here.

50% savings on a single earner household with a kid in international school is really good.

I used to save 50%, but since we’ve owned a home, I’ve had to treat principle portion of our mortgage as savings.

You’ve been here for quite some time, are you getting close to paying it off?

At present, 19 years to go. I’m just thankful for the low interest rates during the first 11 years, well under 2% on average.

[Wd40]

Then the question would have to be where the expert was moving from, if they were moving from somewhere where the quality of life was considerably lower, then living small here would not take much of an adjustment as it would arguably still present a better quality of life than living in the home country. If, on the other hand, said expat was moving from a country in which he enjoyed a very high quality of life, living in a small house and having to take public transport and eat in all the time would certainly come as a surprise.

It is more nuanced. There is this materialistic quality of life and then the intangible quality of life, if I may call so. India is great for materialistic quality of life, you can buy an awesome car and a nice bunglow for a fraction of the cost in Singapore. You can have a maid, a driver, home delivery of everything for very cheap etc.

However, on the intangible quality of life side, Singapore trumps most countries. Women feel so empowered here, they can walk alone in the night, travel in public transport without any fear of molestation. In India, my wife doesnt know how to drive, so she would always depend on me or she will have to use Uber and there is constant fear of safety. Same for my daughter. Here in Singapore, my daughter takes the public bus, 5 bus stops from my house to her school, she is so independent here.

Then even though we live in HDB here it is open we leave our main doors open and have no fear, there is no need of any security. I laugh at the crazy levels of condo security, at the main gate and then at the tower gate, lol, what for? It feels as if condo dwellers live in a prison and visitors have so much protocol to follow just to visit them. HDBs are so open and welcoming. Then there are free public parks, cheap and nice public swimming pools, awesome public transport, clean and polution free air, drinking water directly from the tap etc. In India, even to step out and buy something, you will have to take your car or a motorbike out, you cannot just walk, there are no footpaths, you have to cross the road without zebra crossing, just run across and hope no vehicle hits you.

So I believe that when you are in Rome do what the Romans do. Singapore is not great for materialistic quality of life, so it is would be stupid for an expat to come here and try to replicate their overseas materialistic quality of life here. It is going to be crazy expensive, just dont come here at all. However, if you can, appreciate the intangible quality of life that Singapore offers and make good use of it while you are here. When you go back to India, you will anyways have to spend money to make up for what the state doesnt provide you. So go there, then buy a car and a nice bunglow, keep a maid and driver also if you want and enjoy the materialistic quality of life. Atleast when you go back you feel some upside even though you give up on a lot of intangible aspects of quality of life.

[malcontent]

Then even though we live in HDB here it is open we leave our main doors open and have no fear, there is no need of any security. I laugh at the crazy levels of condo security, at the main gate and then at the tower gate, lol, what for? It feels as if condo dwellers live in a prison and visitors have so much protocol to follow just to visit them. HDBs are so open and welcoming. Then there are free public parks, cheap and nice public swimming pools, awesome public transport, clean and polution free air, drinking water directly from the tap etc. In India, even to step out and buy something, you will have to take your car or a motorbike out, you cannot just walk, there are no footpaths, you have to cross the road without zebra crossing, just run across and hope no vehicle hits you.

I had always assumed that private apartments were required to hire security guards in order to boost their employment numbers here.

[Lisafuller]

50% savings on a single earner household with a kid in International School is really good.

I used to save 50%, but since we’ve owned a home, I’ve had to treat principle portion of our mortgage as savings.

You’ve been here for quite some time, are you getting close to paying it off?

At present, 19 years to go. I’m just thankful for the low interest rates during the first 11 years, well under 2% on average.

Wow, that’s a long way to go. Still, if you are investing while paying it off (which I know you are) you can make up some if not all the interest.

[Lisafuller]

Then even though we live in HDB here it is open we leave our main doors open and have no fear, there is no need of any security. I laugh at the crazy levels of condo security, at the main gate and then at the tower gate, lol, what for? It feels as if condo dwellers live in a prison and visitors have so much protocol to follow just to visit them. HDBs are so open and welcoming. Then there are free public parks, cheap and nice public swimming pools, awesome public transport, clean and polution free air, drinking water directly from the tap etc. In India, even to step out and buy something, you will have to take your car or a motorbike out, you cannot just walk, there are no footpaths, you have to cross the road without zebra crossing, just run across and hope no vehicle hits you.

I had always assumed that private apartments were required to hire security guards in order to boost their employment numbers here.

I’m not sure about that, but I can speak for my own condo, there’s a ton of security. Some, like WD40 may think it’s too much, but I definitely appreciate the peace of mind that came with it when my daughter was younger. It’s one of the few reasons why I let her play on condo grounds unsupervised, back in the US I would never have allowed that.

[Lisafuller]

Then the question would have to be where the expert was moving from, if they were moving from somewhere where the quality of life was considerably lower, then living small here would not take much of an adjustment as it would arguably still present a better quality of life than living in the home country. If, on the other hand, said expat was moving from a country in which he enjoyed a very high quality of life, living in a small house and having to take public transport and eat in all the time would certainly come as a surprise.

It is more nuanced. There is this materialistic quality of life and then the intangible quality of life, if I may call so. India is great for materialistic quality of life, you can buy an awesome car and a nice bunglow for a fraction of the cost in Singapore. You can have a maid, a driver, home delivery of everything for very cheap etc.

However, on the intangible quality of life side, Singapore trumps most countries. Women feel so empowered here, they can walk alone in the night, travel in public transport without any fear of molestation. In India, my wife doesnt know how to drive, so she would always depend on me or she will have to use Uber and there is constant fear of safety. Same for my daughter. Here in Singapore, my daughter takes the public bus, 5 bus stops from my house to her school, she is so independent here.

Then even though we live in HDB here it is open we leave our main doors open and have no fear, there is no need of any security. I laugh at the crazy levels of condo security, at the main gate and then at the tower gate, lol, what for? It feels as if condo dwellers live in a prison and visitors have so much protocol to follow just to visit them. HDBs are so open and welcoming. Then there are free public parks, cheap and nice public swimming pools, awesome public transport, clean and polution free air, drinking water directly from the tap etc. In India, even to step out and buy something, you will have to take your car or a motorbike out, you cannot just walk, there are no footpaths, you have to cross the road without zebra crossing, just run across and hope no vehicle hits you.

So I believe that when you are in Rome do what the Romans do. Singapore is not great for materialistic quality of life, so it is would be stupid for an expat to come here and try to replicate their overseas materialistic quality of life here. It is going to be crazy expensive, just dont come here at all. However, if you can, appreciate the intangible quality of life that Singapore offers and make good use of it while you are here. When you go back to India, you will anyways have to spend money to make up for what the state doesnt provide you. So go there, then buy a car and a nice bunglow, keep a maid and driver also if you want and enjoy the materialistic quality of life. Atleast when you go back you feel some upside even though you give up on a lot of intangible aspects of quality of life.

Great points, I think we just had a different definition of expat in mind. I was envisioning the European or American expats that have their big houses, International Schools and cars paid for by their companies.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Yeah, Lisa, we are great at forgetting the actual definition of Expatriate. Everybody here on any sort of work visa that came from another country, regardless of where or which pass, are, by definition, Expatriates unless of course they are Malaysians who drive across the causeway daily.

[smoulder]

I think condo security is needed not to provide a feeling of safety. I think that's ridiculous in Singapore - you have to be quite paranoid to call that out as a justification. For me it's more about ensuring that outsiders aren't walking in and enjoying facilities that we pay for like the swimming pool or the gym.

[Wd40]

I think condo security is needed not to provide a feeling of safety. I think that's ridiculous in Singapore - you have to be quite paranoid to call that out as a justification. For me it's more about ensuring that outsiders aren't walking in and enjoying facilities that we pay for like the swimming pool or the gym.

The security is not only at the outer compound. Many condos have another level of security system gate below their tower. You need to press some code and then the owner will activate their gate.

I just feel it is a class system divide. I have seen people who live in condos use phrases like "I am going to my condo" rather than "I am going home". Imagine a HDB guy saying "I am going to my HDB"

But for us expats we don't really need to live up with the Joneses', so I don't really care what people think about us living in an HDB and taking public transport. In India, we have judgemental relatives and friends and there it is more difficult. But here I just love living the frugal life on our own terms.

Living in a condo is not just about the rent, the friends you make there are also a different social class than the friends you make in HDB, even among expats. My wife tells me her condo friends take taxi everywhere and don't even know where the bus stop is outside their condo. So we cannot make friends with such people if our lifestyle doesn't match with them. It is much better to live and be friends with people of similar lifestyle as we want. So my wife's friends who live in HDB are all very compatible, they take public transport and go all over Singapore and spending habits too are very similar.