Singapore Citizenship rejection

[NYY1]

Any PR, previously obtained or issued today, would also get that benefit vs the EPs that need to pack up in a month when their working days end.

Sadly, whilst that is truly the norm it is not quite accurate. Ask anybody who was a PR and ran foul of the law here whilst being a PR.

While it's not happened as of yet, should this country have a freak election result and an opposition party gets in, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from rescinding all PRs, creating a mass purging here. While it's not likely to happen, I grant you, the provision for doing so exists. We've already seen what the masses of minions can cause in their mindless lemming-like rush for the cliffs of stupidity.

Understand on the first part re following all of the laws (I took for granted someone would obey). I guess the other nuance is that for younger workers you still need to be able to renew the REP every 5 years (i.e. remain employed) until reaching some retirement age (55?) and that SC is not guaranteed. I understand some peoples' complaints here vs. PR rights elsewhere around the globe (although Singapore, like any other nation, has the right to do as they please giving consideration to both the pros and cons for Singapore). As for the second point, I also understand but for some that risk is still preferrable to their other options.

In the end, everyone's analysis of benefit and cost will be different. US, UK, Canada, Australia (?) passport? Probably their calculation is a bit different and one may not want to take it. Nonetheless, others may be quite happy with the package, whether staying with it or moving to SC if they can. I disagree with the notion that Singapore PR won't help some improve their lot in life.

[sundaymorningstaple]

I agree with you, for all intents & purposes, 100%. In fact, I'm the exception to the rule on the forum as PNGMK as pointed out in that I chose to retire in situ. But, in my case, it's what I'd lose by returning to my own country. My whole family are Singaporeans and there are three generations of us now. I'm the only US native here. All the rest were born here and are SGC by birth or naturalization (Daughter's husband is Naturalized Malayalam I would lose all that by returning to the states. Having said that, don't misunderstand. I'd love to be able to afford to return back and forth and that was in my initial plans until around 4 years ago but a major snafu happen in the US and I lost my retirement home there and there is no way I could every afford to replace that. So, we do what we got to do and adjust our minds accordingly. You are already aware of what I'm up against here as well, which is a situation more easily controlled here than back in the US. Especially family support.

[malcontent]

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The point is that fast track citizenship is a much more pressing and urgent consideration today for those who looking to improve their lot in life, because PR often won’t cut it. At least that is how I would be feeling if I were in that situation today.

You have to remember, you have a Western democratic nation's passport while not everyone else does. Everyone is entitled to their own perspective but while you are constantly complaining about the lifestyle here and the lack of benefits for a PR, the truth is many that are not in your shoes would love to obtain PR here (just look at all of the threads, questions, and applicants that exist). To them, both the residency rights and any subsidies are a substantial benefit (vs the foreigner rates), even if they cannot obtain SC immediately. While you frown upon it, many of these applicants would almost certainly consider PR a way to improve their lot in life in one way or another (relative to what options they currently have).

For example, school fees? Your daughter is still receiving a benefit of ~$1,000+ per month vs. the non-ASEAN rate, and has the option to work/reside here after finishing university abroad (good luck for most 22 year old foreigners educated abroad to get an EP here upon graduation). Still, that isn't enough because the PR rate used to be closer to the SC rate?

Keep in mind another benefit your wife has (and potential you have as you've alluded to via LTVP) is the long-term residency and security of Singapore (pending global geopolitical situation). Any PR, previously obtained or issued today, would also get that benefit vs the EPs that need to pack up in a month when their working days end. While everything you've done has been by the book, not everyone (SC or PR) gets to obtain that without their family contributing to the country's national security at some point.

Again, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want but perhaps there are times with some alternative perspective would go a long way. Anyways, just some food for thought - wishing everyone a pleasant Saturday afternoon.

Although I have a western passport, I have lived for decades among my many in-laws who do not. They hold passports from two neighboring ASEAN countries… some remain on EP, some have PR and some have just become newly minted citizens. I have intimate knowledge of every consideration they made, and deep insights into their perspectives on these things. I can tell you - at least for them, it is not that straightforward and the benefits are not that compelling. Interestingly enough, one of my in-laws is in an almost identical situation as mine, except without a western passport.

Many of my friends who are locals share my sentiments on the scarcity and limitations of recreational opportunities here, as well as the high material cost of living. However, I fully agree that for some people, Singapore has everything they desire… they want for nothing. That is wonderful. Nothing wrong with that!

Regarding school fees… I have to say, it’s a bit of a sore point for me. If a Singaporean moves to the US, they can put their kids into local school for free. And it doesn’t matter if they are on a work permit or a permanent resident. This is as it should be, because as any resident in the US has to pay taxes, and those taxes pay for the school — they don’t get hit with another fee. The way I see it, my taxes have already paid for the school, and this is purely a tax for not being a citizen… almost double-dipping if you ask me. But hey, who am I to judge?

As for my ‘frowning’ on PR and taking up SC, the post I made that you were replying to was doing just the opposite — I think people should be seriously considering the path to citizenship with more urgency than ever. Sorry if that was not clear. I’m fully cognizant of the benefits of living here. How could I have stayed here over 2.5 decades otherwise? But I don’t wear rose colored glasses either… there are real pros/cons to living anywhere in the world, no reason to pretend there isn’t.

[NYY1]

Some replies/thoughts below. Literally just some responses and other ways of looking at things. Apologies if some of my replies seem directed to you as an individual. Regards.

Although I have a western passport, I have lived for decades among my many in-laws who do not. They hold passports from two neighboring ASEAN countries… some remain on EP, some have PR and some have just become newly minted citizens. I have intimate knowledge of every consideration they made, and deep insights into their perspectives on these things. I can tell you - at least for them, it is not that straightforward and the benefits are not that compelling. Interestingly enough, one of my in-laws is in an almost identical situation as mine, except without a western passport.

But in all cases does at least one family member have Singapore PR? If so, that is a lot different than an entire family on EP/DP or where only kids and mother can stay (via Student Pass/LTVP) if employment is lost. The benefit - cost calculation is going to be much different.

I guess it is all a different magnitude of a) willing to work/study/live here but can happily move on/back if necessary, b) want to obtain long-term residence security here (subject to SMS's corrections/qualifiers and rolling REP), and c) want to setup camp here permanently.

As for my ‘frowning’ on PR and taking up SC, the post I made that you were replying to was doing just the opposite — I think people should be seriously considering the path to citizenship with more urgency than ever. Sorry if that was not clear. I’m fully cognizant of the benefits of living here. How could I have stayed here over 2.5 decades otherwise? But I don’t wear rose colored glasses either… there are real pros/cons to living anywhere in the world, no reason to pretend there isn’t.

I understood the original post or at least the part on the path to SC. I do understand if the relative benefits to PR have become less over time and if one knows they want to stay here forever they should try to convert to SC as soon as possible (HDB, P1 registration, school fees, other subsidies, etc). However, as we've noted conversion is not guaranteed. Still, for many that do not have various (attractive) options on hand (multiple residencies within a family, Western Citizenship), sitting as a PR for an extended number of years may still be beneficial. At least beneficial enough to improve their lot in life.

And you are right; there are real pros/cons to living anywhere in the world. Absolutes are hard to come by and preferences are different.

[malcontent]

Although I have a western passport, I have lived for decades among my many in-laws who do not. They hold passports from two neighboring ASEAN countries… some remain on EP, some have PR and some have just become newly minted citizens. I have intimate knowledge of every consideration they made, and deep insights into their perspectives on these things. I can tell you - at least for them, it is not that straightforward and the benefits are not that compelling. Interestingly enough, one of my in-laws is in an almost identical situation as mine, except without a western passport.

But in all cases does at least one family member have Singapore PR? If so, that is a lot different than an entire family on EP/DP or where only kids and mother can stay (via Student Pass/LTVP) if employment is lost. The benefit - cost calculation is going to be much different.

Yes, at least one parent is PR in all cases, but in one case, none of the kids are - they are all DP holders under the other spouses’s EP. This spouse had a US passport at one time, but since renounced it (still has an ASEAN passport). All kids still have US citizenship and are DP holders paying non-ASEAN fees in local school. If I were in their shoes, I would have gone for PR and citizenship long ago.