Singapore Expats

Singapore Citizenship rejection

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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sundaymorningstaple
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:45 pm

sailtraveller wrote:
Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:28 pm
Sorry for my blur-ness .. but .. if you're SPR, what's rush to be SC so quickly ? I think natural progression, unless there's some other motivation, is to finish education, work for at least 5-7yrs with some growth - apply late 20s early 30s. Also I assume you did complete your NS.

And, sad to say this, but, if you have plans to marry a woman, for love, eventually, I do hope she might be a SC - considering you've grown up among SC people, that will help your case I think.
I can give a very valid reason for doing so that didn't pertain to me way back in the day but impacts me greatly today.

Going from LTVP or EP/S pass to PR used to be a bonus. Today it's a penalty. You lose any expat perks you might be receiving as you are no longer considered an expat. And, unlike gaining PR >15 years ago, most of the subsidies that PR received were around 80~85% of what SGC received (but PR still could not vote, nevermind). All that has changed. Now, we still pay the same tax rates and CPF rates as citizens but only receive around 15~20% of the subsidies that SGCs receive. It's no longer beneficial being a PR but you cannot stay here otherwise if on an EP. Once the EP stops, so does your residency. It's best to make the jump from PR to SGC as soon as possible, especially if planning on buying an HDB as well. Huge difference in the Government grants.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by malcontent » Thu, 25 Aug 2022 6:17 pm

sailtraveller wrote:
Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:28 pm
Sorry for my blur-ness .. but .. if you're SPR, what's rush to be SC so quickly ? I think natural progression, unless there's some other motivation, is to finish education, work for at least 5-7yrs with some growth - apply late 20s early 30s. Also I assume you did complete your NS (if you're male).

And, sad to say this, but, if you have plans to marry a man/woman, for love, eventually, I do hope he/she might be a SC - considering you've grown up among SC people, that will help your case I think.
What’s the rush? Being a PR isn’t what it used to be. Over the past 15 years or so, they have implemented something called sharper differentiation between SC/PR.

This has given absolute priority to SC kids at P1 registration, and added massive hike in school fees for PR kids. So unless you are well off or don’t intend to have kids, you wouldn’t want to settle down here or start a family without the assurance of citizenship. That means you need to make the PR to SC transition fairly quick, or make for the exit door.

My daughter is a PR in JC and we pay over $500/mo in school fees. Fortunately we can afford it. But she got in the year before P1 registration changed. Nowadays, it a totally different ballgame.

Although this was originally done to encourage those with long-time PR to apply for citizenship, it has had unintended consequences for newer PRs. I think it was also intended to appease citizens by giving them more… but it seems most aren’t even aware.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by sailtraveller » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 12:34 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:45 pm
sailtraveller wrote:
Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:28 pm
Sorry for my blur-ness .. but .. if you're SPR, what's rush to be SC so quickly ? I think natural progression, unless there's some other motivation, is to finish education, work for at least 5-7yrs with some growth - apply late 20s early 30s. Also I assume you did complete your NS.

And, sad to say this, but, if you have plans to marry a woman, for love, eventually, I do hope she might be a SC - considering you've grown up among SC people, that will help your case I think.
I can give a very valid reason for doing so that didn't pertain to me way back in the day but impacts me greatly today.

Going from LTVP or EP/S pass to PR used to be a bonus. Today it's a penalty. You lose any expat perks you might be receiving as you are no longer considered an expat. And, unlike gaining PR >15 years ago, most of the subsidies that PR received were around 80~85% of what SGC received (but PR still could not vote, nevermind). All that has changed. Now, we still pay the same tax rates and CPF rates as citizens but only receive around 15~20% of the subsidies that SGCs receive. It's no longer beneficial being a PR but you cannot stay here otherwise if on an EP. Once the EP stops, so does your residency. It's best to make the jump from PR to SGC as soon as possible, especially if planning on buying an HDB as well. Huge difference in the Government grants.
Thanks, very interesting. I've got a good viz of a few industries/segment - there's very few left with substantial "expat" packages. When I moved from Malaysia to SG, I was hired as a "local", with no difference from SC local hire - eventually I had to nego an expat medical insurance as I couldn't keep afford health due to a number of health issues I had at the time.
Expat packages will always be on the down trend, but some sectors go lower at a slower pace - good for them - I'm not part of any of those sectors. I used to travel 80% of the time, and never been in a company that gave you even business class. Just to get the jist ...

On the PR - I heard years ago SC complained that SPR were to similar to SC in privileges, and they wanted more differentiation.

For me getting SPR is all about:
- being able to have SG as my home, without being worried on depending on a company sponsoring me (maybe can take 2-3 months off between jobs without too much anxiety)
- potentially buy a second hand HDB ... whenever we'll meet the criteria
- no headache with EP quotas etc. when trying to get a job or change job

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by malcontent » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 1:47 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:45 pm
Going from LTVP or EP/S pass to PR used to be a bonus. Today it's a penalty. You lose any expat perks you might be receiving as you are no longer considered an expat. And, unlike gaining PR >15 years ago, most of the subsidies that PR received were around 80~85% of what SGC received (but PR still could not vote, nevermind). All that has changed. Now, we still pay the same tax rates and CPF rates as citizens but only receive around 15~20% of the subsidies that SGCs receive. It's no longer beneficial being a PR but you cannot stay here otherwise if on an EP. Once the EP stops, so does your residency. It's best to make the jump from PR to SGC as soon as possible, especially if planning on buying an HDB as well. Huge difference in the Government grants.
That is exactly why I applied for PR back in 1999, but after rejection, haven’t bothered to re-apply and have remained on an EP continuously since 1997. I just renewed it for the umpteenth time, good until 2025.

Why bother to apply for PR…

Lower ABSD? No, as a US citizen I enjoy the same ABSD as Singapore citizens, far better than a PR, all thanks to the US free trade agreement.

CPF? Not really, my employer pays the CPF equivalent to my SRS account, so I’m not losing anything. In fact, I have more freedom to invest SRS compared to CPF. I’ve put it all into S27 (S&P 500 Index) which has average returns of over 9% per annum in the long-term. I’m confident of beating CPF interest rates.

Job mobility? Don’t need it. I’ve been with the same employer for over 25 years, it has been good for me and I have no intentions of leaving, plus I’ve got heaps of job security.

Subsidized healthcare? I’m covered under my employer group coverage, plus they self-insure outpatient, specialist, dental, etc. and while the limits aren’t huge, it’s enough to cover all but the worst ailments. If I was to get something really major, I’d move back to the US and get on Obamacare.

HDB? Not interested. We’ve got a freehold condo… pricey, but it has worked out well.

With all of that said, my wife does have PR. Has that made much of a difference? It did help for extending my SVP when I first arrived here. As a PR she enjoys a lower deposit on utilities, phone and internet services for our home. She also gets a cheap/free library card which I use, and she has some CPF savings, but we don’t use it for anything. Probably the biggest thing is my daughter got PR through her and enjoyed lower school fees, although still not cheap. That about sums up the benefits I’ve seen.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by MOCHS » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 9:07 am

^ It seems your situation is an outlier and not the norm. I’ve not heard of anyone who is on EP for decades and an employer of EP holder providing SRS contribution. You’re in a very privileged position, you know. Not everyone is lucky like that. You don’t have to keep boasting about it when people try so hard to live here permanently but you are already living here for a long time and with an exit plan.
Last edited by MOCHS on Fri, 26 Aug 2022 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by smoulder » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 9:10 am

Also, not everyone here is an American to enjoy lower ABSD

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by malcontent » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 11:46 am

smoulder wrote:
Fri, 26 Aug 2022 9:10 am
Also, not everyone here is an American to enjoy lower ABSD
Nationals and Permanent Residents of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway or Switzerland also enjoy lower ABSD due to their respective FTA.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by MOCHS » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 11:48 am

^ How many people from the Scandinavian/Nordic countries buy homes in SG? :P

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by nelyanne » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 12:39 pm

malcontent wrote:
Fri, 26 Aug 2022 1:47 am
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Thu, 25 Aug 2022 5:45 pm
Going from LTVP or EP/S pass to PR used to be a bonus. Today it's a penalty. You lose any expat perks you might be receiving as you are no longer considered an expat. And, unlike gaining PR >15 years ago, most of the subsidies that PR received were around 80~85% of what SGC received (but PR still could not vote, nevermind). All that has changed. Now, we still pay the same tax rates and CPF rates as citizens but only receive around 15~20% of the subsidies that SGCs receive. It's no longer beneficial being a PR but you cannot stay here otherwise if on an EP. Once the EP stops, so does your residency. It's best to make the jump from PR to SGC as soon as possible, especially if planning on buying an HDB as well. Huge difference in the Government grants.
That is exactly why I applied for PR back in 1999, but after rejection, haven’t bothered to re-apply and have remained on an EP continuously since 1997. I just renewed it for the umpteenth time, good until 2025.

Why bother to apply for PR…

Lower ABSD? No, as a US citizen I enjoy the same ABSD as Singapore citizens, far better than a PR, all thanks to the US free trade agreement.

CPF? Not really, my employer pays the CPF equivalent to my SRS account, so I’m not losing anything. In fact, I have more freedom to invest SRS compared to CPF. I’ve put it all into S27 (S&P 500 Index) which has average returns of over 9% per annum in the long-term. I’m confident of beating CPF interest rates.

Job mobility? Don’t need it. I’ve been with the same employer for over 25 years, it has been good for me and I have no intentions of leaving, plus I’ve got heaps of job security.

Subsidized healthcare? I’m covered under my employer group coverage, plus they self-insure outpatient, specialist, dental, etc. and while the limits aren’t huge, it’s enough to cover all but the worst ailments. If I was to get something really major, I’d move back to the US and get on Obamacare.

HDB? Not interested. We’ve got a freehold condo… pricey, but it has worked out well.

With all of that said, my wife does have PR. Has that made much of a difference? It did help for extending my SVP when I first arrived here. As a PR she enjoys a lower deposit on utilities, phone and internet services for our home. She also gets a cheap/free library card which I use, and she has some CPF savings, but we don’t use it for anything. Probably the biggest thing is my daughter got PR through her and enjoyed lower school fees, although still not cheap. That about sums up the benefits I’ve seen.
My experience is... if you open your second SP utilities account as an EP holder, the security deposit already has a preferential rate. Even fewer reasons to become a PR ;) (Or maybe in my case, it was just a mistake on SP side?)

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by malcontent » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 1:50 pm

MOCHS wrote:
Fri, 26 Aug 2022 9:07 am
^ It seems your situation is an outlier and not the norm. I’ve not heard of anyone who is on EP for decades and an employer of EP holder providing SRS contribution. You’re in a very privileged position, you know. Not everyone is lucky like that. You don’t have to keep boasting about it when people try so hard to live here permanently but you are already living here for a long time and with an exit plan.
I am no better off than had I stayed in the US. I am also no better off than had my application for PR been approved in 1999. So… privileged… lucky… compared to suffering a worse fate? I guess we can all say that.

People naturally gravitate toward decisions that result in them (hopefully) ending up better off. Had I been presented with different opportunities, I would have made different decisions. Winding back the clock, I might be on a completely different path today had I been granted PR back then.

The point is that fast track citizenship is a much more pressing and urgent consideration today for those who looking to improve their lot in life, because PR often won’t cut it. At least that is how I would be feeling if I were in that situation today.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by malcontent » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 2:59 pm

MOCHS wrote:
Fri, 26 Aug 2022 9:07 am
^ It seems your situation is an outlier and not the norm. I’ve not heard of anyone who is on EP for decades and an employer of EP holder providing SRS contribution. You’re in a very privileged position, you know. Not everyone is lucky like that. You don’t have to keep boasting about it when people try so hard to live here permanently but you are already living here for a long time and with an exit plan.
I don’t know if you can really call it an exit plan — I only have plans to move to the US while our kids are in college… no plans beyond that. I certainly wouldn’t rule anything out.

Keep in mind that my teenaged kids have spent their entire lives here… born & raised. My wife has lived almost her entire life here, since early primary, and last year I crossed the half-way mark — so I’ve now lived in Singapore longer than any other country. I did apply for PR back when it made sense to do so, but it wasn’t in the cards.

What will we do after our kids graduate from university? That is the million dollar question.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by MOCHS » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 4:10 pm

It seems like you might have applied for PR too soon after marriage back then. If you re-applied after your children were born, you probably would have a good chance to be approved.

I was under the impression you were going to retire back in the US since you’ve been saying how much you admire your friend’s lifestyle in the middle of nowhere and how it’s better than SG.

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by malcontent » Fri, 26 Aug 2022 5:00 pm

MOCHS wrote:
Fri, 26 Aug 2022 4:10 pm
It seems like you might have applied for PR too soon after marriage back then. If you re-applied after your children were born, you probably would have a good chance to be approved.

I was under the impression you were going to retire back in the US since you’ve been saying how much you admire your friend’s lifestyle in the middle of nowhere and how it’s better than SG.
Oh, no… the most I can see is spending a few months in summer there. Don’t need to live there full time to enjoy the fruits, especially in retirement — total flexibility.

Retiring in SG is highly probable. It’s a great jumping off point for travel around the region, and I could get an LTVP and Integrated Shield Plan under my wife. She will never give up her PR, even if they don’t renew her REP while we are in the US… she will fly back here and make them; and trust me, she could.
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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by NYY1 » Sat, 27 Aug 2022 12:40 pm

malcontent wrote:
Fri, 26 Aug 2022 1:50 pm
.....
The point is that fast track citizenship is a much more pressing and urgent consideration today for those who looking to improve their lot in life, because PR often won’t cut it. At least that is how I would be feeling if I were in that situation today.
You have to remember, you have a Western democratic nation's passport while not everyone else does. Everyone is entitled to their own perspective but while you are constantly complaining about the lifestyle here and the lack of benefits for a PR, the truth is many that are not in your shoes would love to obtain PR here (just look at all of the threads, questions, and applicants that exist). To them, both the residency rights and any subsidies are a substantial benefit (vs the foreigner rates), even if they cannot obtain SC immediately. While you frown upon it, many of these applicants would almost certainly consider PR a way to improve their lot in life in one way or another (relative to what options they currently have).

For example, school fees? Your daughter is still receiving a benefit of ~$1,000+ per month vs. the non-ASEAN rate, and has the option to work/reside here after finishing university abroad (good luck for most 22 year old foreigners educated abroad to get an EP here upon graduation). Still, that isn't enough because the PR rate used to be closer to the SC rate?

Keep in mind another benefit your wife has (and potential you have as you've alluded to via LTVP) is the long-term residency and security of Singapore (pending global geopolitical situation). Any PR, previously obtained or issued today, would also get that benefit vs the EPs that need to pack up in a month when their working days end. While everything you've done has been by the book, not everyone (SC or PR) gets to obtain that without their family contributing to the country's national security at some point.

Again, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want but perhaps there are times with some alternative perspective would go a long way. Anyways, just some food for thought - wishing everyone a pleasant Saturday afternoon.

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Re: Singapore Citizenship rejection

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 27 Aug 2022 2:41 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Sat, 27 Aug 2022 12:40 pm

Any PR, previously obtained or issued today, would also get that benefit vs the EPs that need to pack up in a month when their working days end.
Sadly, whilst that is truly the norm it is not quite accurate. Ask anybody who was a PR and ran foul of the law here whilst being a PR.

While it's not happened as of yet, should this country have a freak election result and an opposition party gets in, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from rescinding all PRs, creating a mass purging here. While it's not likely to happen, I grant you, the provision for doing so exists. We've already seen what the masses of minions can cause in their mindless lemming-like rush for the cliffs of stupidity. :-k
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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