Where will you retire?

[Lisafuller]

Enlighten me, what’s the point of being a permanent resident if you’re not going to be here permanently like what the name suggests? Aren’t you just depriving other deserving applicants a PR vacancy? Just milk SG for its worth for your benefit during your younger years and say buhbye when it’s convenient and cheaper?

While it may not be as clear cut as I make it out to be, it does raise eyebrows.

So, do you really think that Singapore is looking to have extra retirees hanging around when they've done working? Wouldn't it be rather ideal that PRs, who haven't converted to SC, would pack their things and move away the day their stop working and thus contributing to the GDP. Unless they are really wealthy of course and consume like a good tourist or business traveler.

I mean most developed economies are having the problem of too many old people vs working age. But it's hard to kick out your citizens.

I feel that PRs should have the autonomy to choose when to stay and when to go. On one hand, once they’ve done their time and contributed to the country, they should be free to stay and enjoy the fruits of their labor. On the other hand, if they’ve had enough and wish to leave, they should be able to, free of judgement.

[Lisafuller]

It’s not my intention to start a bonfire here but too often, I’ve heard many cases of PRs just using SG as a stepping stone and jumping ship when there are better opportunities.

Take my ex-colleague for example. For the longest time, she stayed as a SPR and did not want to take up citizenship as she thought she would go home to Shanghai to retire since retirees get a monthly pension, if I’m not wrong.

Then when her sister-in-law got a US green card, she was keen to have a green card too, and eventually US citizenship. The idea was to have the SIL help apply green card for her brother (who is my ex-colleague’s husband) and when his green card approved, the husband will then help to apply for the rest of the family.

So she converted to SC when her child entered sec sch and maybe being a Singaporean might be looked upon favourably for green card application? The plan is for the whole family to uproot and move to USA when the child enters college.

On top of that, she decided to only list herself as owner of the HDB while husband bought a condo and rented it out. Then when the daughter went into a sec sch that was far away from their HDB, they decided to rent out the HDB too and rent a place closer to the sec such.

Maybe one might call that playing smart. I call it playing with the system. I’m sure there are plenty of PRs that hold property here in SG and rent them out while they relax back in their home country.

I think it's good to have this conversation as part of a "where will you retire" discussion. Very relevant and certainly adds another dimension to the discussion.

I just wonder though why such a thing would be unique to Singapore - I believe it isn't. Immigration is all about opportunism. I'm sure your ancestors were opportunistic when they landed here. I know I have been opportunistic by taking up a PR and I will probably be that if and when they approve my SC application. I'm sure you or any other Singaporean who emigrates (there are some you know), will also be similarly opportunistic.

Obviously the gahmen has realized this has a viewpoint that because of the unique nature of this country, they prefer now to give out PRs to people that they have assessed to be more likely to be loyal to Singapore.

Exactly, immigration is all about being opportunistic and taking advantage of whats in front of you. Sure we can be quick to judge, but I’m sure any of us would behave the same if a better opportunity presented itself.

[bro75]

For myself, I am a city guy and not really cut out for rural life. I will probably retire in a city or a suburb. I plan to retire here in SG but it depends on my daughter. I am one of those who got PR when it was easy but the privilege was not extended to my child who was rejected multiple times and is now on a student pass. If she manages to stay here and get residency or long term employment, we will probably stay here. If not, one option is to retire to my country of birth, Philippines in a suburban area.

Same here, I’ve become accustomed to the many luxuries of city life and think farm/rural life will be quite a painful transition. Which area in the Philippines do you have in mind? I’ve heard pretty nice things about Makati, although from what I understand its got a pretty fast pace of life so perhaps not ideal for retirement where you would want to slow down a bit.

I grew up in Las Pinas , a south Manila suburb so if I retire, it will be somewhere there near family.

[malcontent]

For myself, I am a city guy and not really cut out for rural life. I will probably retire in a city or a suburb. I plan to retire here in SG but it depends on my daughter. I am one of those who got PR when it was easy but the privilege was not extended to my child who was rejected multiple times and is now on a student pass. If she manages to stay here and get residency or long term employment, we will probably stay here. If not, one option is to retire to my country of birth, Philippines in a suburban area.

Same here, I’ve become accustomed to the many luxuries of city life and think farm/rural life will be quite a painful transition. Which area in the Philippines do you have in mind? I’ve heard pretty nice things about Makati, although from what I understand its got a pretty fast pace of life so perhaps not ideal for retirement where you would want to slow down a bit.

I grew up in Las Pinas , a south Manila suburb so if I retire, it will be somewhere there near family.

I actually like Manila, and not just the nice parts. But, my biggest concern is the pollution. I used to go there frequently on business around 19 years ago, within days of arrival, when I blew my nose, I would see black stuff. This happened every time I went — can’t be good, especially in the long run.

If I was to move to the Philippines, my top three picks would be:

1. Mactan Newtown (high rise condo)
2. Subic Freeport Zone (landed house)
3. Dumaguete/Valencia (apartment complex)

All are seaside locations, each with their own unique advantages. All are expat friendly with plenty of social connections/opportunities.

[MOCHS]

I feel that PRs should have the autonomy to choose when to stay and when to go.

I disagree. Then it defeats the purpose of PR in the first place. All over the world, no matter which country you go to, PR has always been a step towards citizenship. One takes PR because they want to settle permanently, it’s in the name. Or should it be renamed as “transient residency until retirement” then?

I do not fault PRs that do have intentions to become SCs but due to circumstances out of their control back home, they have no choice but choose to give it up.

But I do find it unsavoury if someone gets PR in the first place with the intention to never stay here forever. You don’t realise how privileged you are when most people in the world don’t have that luxury.

Yes, immigration is a multi-faceted issue but when PRs jumping ship happens so often, the citizens can’t help but feel jaded. Do these PRs really integrate? Do they really know the colloquial slang? Do they do what the locals do? Or do they stick to their condo enclave/expat bubble and never venture out into the heartlands.

People who get PRs in other Western countries almost always obtain citizenship there instead of just deciding to return back to their home countries. Why is this not the case in SG? Seems into be a “uniquely SG” thing.

[malcontent]

I feel that PRs should have the autonomy to choose when to stay and when to go.

I disagree. Then it defeats the purpose of PR in the first place. All over the world, no matter which country you go to, PR has always been a step towards citizenship. One takes PR because they want to settle permanently, it’s in the name. Or should it be renamed as “transient residency until retirement” then?

I do not fault PRs that do have intentions to become SCs but due to circumstances out of their control back home, they have no choice but choose to give it up.

But I do find it unsavoury if someone gets PR in the first place with the intention to never stay here forever. You don’t realise how privileged you are when most people in the world don’t have that luxury.

Yes, immigration is a multi-faceted issue but when PRs jumping ship happens so often, the citizens can’t help but feel jaded. Do these PRs really integrate? Do they really know the colloquial slang? Do they do what the locals do? Or do they stick to their condo enclave/expat bubble and never venture out into the heartlands.

People who get PRs in other Western countries almost always obtain citizenship there instead of just deciding to return back to their home countries. Why is this not the case in SG? Seems into be a “uniquely SG” thing.

I have often said there should be a visa status that is in between PR and EP… I would suggest LTR, or long-term resident. But, the definition of permanent can also mean durable and long-lasting. I believe PR is exactly that. Not just in Singapore, but just about every country. And, let’s face it, if it really was permanent, you wouldn’t need to renew your REP.

If taking up PR without the intention of staying forever is unsavory, then what about giving PR without the intention of giving SC? That does not happen in most countries, it’s like having second thoughts… oh, we needed you then, but hmmm, maybe we don’t need you now (sorry, better options have come into the pool). That is a bit like having your cake and eating it too. I don’t blame Singapore, she is just looking out for her best interests, but by the same token, you can’t blame people for doing the same.

Yes, people who get PR in other countries generally do obtain citizenship. But it is not out of a sense of duty or obligation, and certainly not because they feel so honored to have PR status bestowed upon them. That would really rich, considering the value of PR here has become so watered down.

In other counties, PR is generally indistinguishable with citizenship in terms of benefits enjoyed. For the US, about the only difference is voting rights. And, nobody gets judged if they give up their PR and leave — that would be a pretty snooty thing to do!

[smoulder]

I feel that PRs should have the autonomy to choose when to stay and when to go.

I disagree. Then it defeats the purpose of PR in the first place. All over the world, no matter which country you go to, PR has always been a step towards citizenship. One takes PR because they want to settle permanently, it’s in the name. Or should it be renamed as “transient residency until retirement” then?

I do not fault PRs that do have intentions to become SCs but due to circumstances out of their control back home, they have no choice but choose to give it up.

But I do find it unsavoury if someone gets PR in the first place with the intention to never stay here forever. You don’t realise how privileged you are when most people in the world don’t have that luxury.

Yes, immigration is a multi-faceted issue but when PRs jumping ship happens so often, the citizens can’t help but feel jaded. Do these PRs really integrate? Do they really know the colloquial slang? Do they do what the locals do? Or do they stick to their condo enclave/expat bubble and never venture out into the heartlands.

People who get PRs in other Western countries almost always obtain citizenship there instead of just deciding to return back to their home countries. Why is this not the case in SG? Seems into be a “uniquely SG” thing.

While I've always considered that I have "integrated" as best as a foreigner can, I find these arguments about integration amusing at times. And I have consciously attempted to fit in rather than stay aloof from the local populace.

1. Integration is 2 ways. Read the points made about how certain groups are not quite welcomed for no reason other than their "race".

2. Immigration has rarely been about people integrating. It's only recently that this has become a factor. If your ancestors had integrated, you would be speaking Malay (I'm guessing that you are not Malay) - there would be no Chinese, Tamil or English spoken on this island, only Malay. I think a good dose of pragmatism and a whole lot less emotion is in order here. While the gahmen can certainly have a view of what they think is "sufficient" integration since they are the ones enforcing immigration, I wonder how common people like you can "measure" something intangible. How do you know what is sufficiently integrated.

By the way, I know of plenty of recent immigrants to the west who have taken up citizenship but still maintain alarmingly close ties with their former countries. Hardly something that happens exclusively here.

[bro75]

The issue of PRs not becoming citizens in SG is sometimes the decision of the PR and sometimes the decision of the government . In Western countries, PR to citizenship is straightforward with the requirement only of having the requisite number of years of residency and language proficiency . Singapore’s citizenship criteria is more opaque. There are many people like me who are PRs for more than 10 years and yet rejected for citizenship.

[MOCHS]

This discussion has been quite insightful and things aren’t that clear cut after all. It was not my intention to create “citizens vs foreigners”, I was sharing my POV even though it came out harsh.

To bring things back on topic, I don’t know where I’ll retire since it’ll be decades before that happens but it’s leaning towards SG. I did ask my husband if he ever wants to return home to the States and his reply was “I just want to be wherever you are”.

It’s quite surprising there are no retirement villages here unlike other countries. That’s something I can go for.

[smoulder]

The issue of PRs not becoming citizens in SG is sometimes the decision of the PR and sometimes the decision of the government . In Western countries, PR to citizenship is straightforward with the requirement only of having the requisite number of years of residency and language proficiency . Singapore’s citizenship criteria is more opaque. There are many people like me who are PRs for more than 10 years and yet rejected for citizenship.

If I'm not wrong, you were granted PR when Filipinos were considered under the Malay category and possibly rejected for citizenship when Filipinos got moved to others?

[bro75]

I was always categorised under others. I did ask about this when I started filling forms but I was told to put Filipino in race or check the others box. That was in 2005.

[Lisafuller]

For myself, I am a city guy and not really cut out for rural life. I will probably retire in a city or a suburb. I plan to retire here in SG but it depends on my daughter. I am one of those who got PR when it was easy but the privilege was not extended to my child who was rejected multiple times and is now on a student pass. If she manages to stay here and get residency or long term employment, we will probably stay here. If not, one option is to retire to my country of birth, Philippines in a suburban area.

Same here, I’ve become accustomed to the many luxuries of city life and think farm/rural life will be quite a painful transition. Which area in the Philippines do you have in mind? I’ve heard pretty nice things about Makati, although from what I understand its got a pretty fast pace of life so perhaps not ideal for retirement where you would want to slow down a bit.

I grew up in Las Pinas , a south Manila suburb so if I retire, it will be somewhere there near family.

Sounds nice, cost of living must be insanely cheap, you’ll live like kings.

[Lisafuller]

Same here, I’ve become accustomed to the many luxuries of city life and think farm/rural life will be quite a painful transition. Which area in the Philippines do you have in mind? I’ve heard pretty nice things about Makati, although from what I understand its got a pretty fast pace of life so perhaps not ideal for retirement where you would want to slow down a bit.

I grew up in Las Pinas , a south Manila suburb so if I retire, it will be somewhere there near family.

I actually like Manila, and not just the nice parts. But, my biggest concern is the pollution. I used to go there frequently on business around 19 years ago, within days of arrival, when I blew my nose, I would see black stuff. This happened every time I went — can’t be good, especially in the long run.

If I was to move to the Philippines, my top three picks would be:

1. Mactan Newtown (high rise condo)
2. Subic Freeport Zone (landed house)
3. Dumaguete/Valencia (apartment complex)

All are seaside locations, each with their own unique advantages. All are expat friendly with plenty of social connections/opportunities.

Wow, seems like you’re quite familiar with the Philippines. My concern is more about safety, crime seems pretty rampant, and non-natives tend to be a target for crime.

[Lisafuller]

This discussion has been quite insightful and things aren’t that clear cut after all. It was not my intention to create “citizens vs foreigners”, I was sharing my POV even though it came out harsh.

To bring things back on topic, I don’t know where I’ll retire since it’ll be decades before that happens but it’s leaning towards SG. I did ask my husband if he ever wants to return home to the States and his reply was “I just want to be wherever you are”.

It’s quite surprising there are no retirement villages here unlike other countries. That’s something I can go for.

How sweet, why SG for you? Is the US home for you too? Also, I believe we don’t have retirement communities simply because we don’t have enough land for that, although if you’re referring to a high rise, I think there was some news a couple of years ago about building a high rise retirement community but not sure if anything ever became of that.

[Lisafuller]

The issue of PRs not becoming citizens in SG is sometimes the decision of the PR and sometimes the decision of the government . In Western countries, PR to citizenship is straightforward with the requirement only of having the requisite number of years of residency and language proficiency . Singapore’s citizenship criteria is more opaque. There are many people like me who are PRs for more than 10 years and yet rejected for citizenship.

After 10 years? Seriously? Are you planning to reapply?