Career/Industry Change in SG

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sp786
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by sp786 » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:26 am

Good one myasis you breath fire like a dragon. Can oso tell me how useful is PMP to project management?

nelyanne
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by nelyanne » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:47 pm

Myasis Dragon wrote:
Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:44 pm
trojan1988 wrote:
Mon, 19 Jul 2021 4:31 pm
Thanks for that! Yeah, very true. Of course project management (the work) is specific. However, the job title itself is not. I'm glad that you think the Government recognises this distinction.
My business card said, "Project Manager". I'd walk into a company where they had "Project Manager I", "Project Manager II", and "Senior Project Manager", or in a bank, "Special Projects Vice President", and they'd all ask me, "So how you run a big project like this when you're only a project manager?"

I wouldn't sweat title inflation. I mean, the programmers of yesteryear are now all software engineers. Don't forget that the fancy ass titles that show up are a way to give employees a sense of self importance without giving them any more money.

Inside sales >>>>> Account executive
Manager >>>>> Director
IT Manager >>>>> Chief Technologist
Copywriter >>>>> Media Content Creator
Also worth mentioning:
* sales engineer (sales)
* customer success engineer (sales)
* software engineer in test (tester)
* talent researcher (recruiter)
;)

smoulder
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by smoulder » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:51 pm

nelyanne wrote:
Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:47 pm
Myasis Dragon wrote:
Mon, 19 Jul 2021 10:44 pm
trojan1988 wrote:
Mon, 19 Jul 2021 4:31 pm
Thanks for that! Yeah, very true. Of course project management (the work) is specific. However, the job title itself is not. I'm glad that you think the Government recognises this distinction.
My business card said, "Project Manager". I'd walk into a company where they had "Project Manager I", "Project Manager II", and "Senior Project Manager", or in a bank, "Special Projects Vice President", and they'd all ask me, "So how you run a big project like this when you're only a project manager?"

I wouldn't sweat title inflation. I mean, the programmers of yesteryear are now all software engineers. Don't forget that the fancy ass titles that show up are a way to give employees a sense of self importance without giving them any more money.

Inside sales >>>>> Account executive
Manager >>>>> Director
IT Manager >>>>> Chief Technologist
Copywriter >>>>> Media Content Creator
Also worth mentioning:
* sales engineer (sales)
* customer success engineer (sales)
* software engineer in test (tester)
* talent researcher (recruiter)
;)
Solutions architects who are really pre sales guys with very shallow technical knowledge.

Myasis Dragon
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by Myasis Dragon » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:55 pm

smoulder wrote:
Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:51 pm
Solutions architects who are really pre sales guys with very shallow technical knowledge.
Indeed... "solution" is the word to watch out for.

Saleslut John: Hey, Bob... we can bounce the customer signals off the moon, thereby saving them those outrageous fees and taxes, can't we Bob?

Solutions Architect Bob: Oh, sure, John... we were taught how to do that in our first 3 weeks of training, right after we learned to make PowerPoint slide decks.

Customer: Uh... guys... it will cost a million dollars to bounce signals off the moon.

Saleslut John: Not to worry... we've got that all figured out and can make moon signal bouncing competitive with AT&T fiber, can't we, Bob?

Solutions Architect Bob: Hmmm.... I think so, John... but it might not be ready until 2045.

Saleslut John: Don't listen to him, Mr. Customer... I've got the inside track that they don't feed to the tech guys... we'll have it ready next week... now, if you'll just sign on the dotted line.

Myasis Dragon
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by Myasis Dragon » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:18 pm

sp786 wrote:
Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:26 am
Good one myasis you breath fire like a dragon. Can oso tell me how useful is PMP to project management?
You should know that obtaining a PMP doesn't teach you anything about managing a project. What it does give you is an excellent framework from which you _can_ manage a project, IF you know how to manage a project.

The Project Management Body of Knowledge (PMBOK) provides for five project phases: Initiating, Planning, Execution, Controlling and Monitoring, and Closing. PMBOK will tell you what is supposed to happen in each phase but doesn't tell you how to make it happen.

Similarly, there are 10 knowledge areas within the PMBOK:

Scope Management
Time Management
Risk Management
Resource Management
Cost Management
Quality Management
Communications Management
Procurement Management
Stakeholder Management
Project Integration Management

Again, each knowledge area tells you what you need to be doing but not how to do it.

For example, take Risk Management... supposedly, the PM identifies all the risks that might impact scope, time, cost, or quality. I have seem more absolutely useless numbnuts project risks logs than... well... useless executive reports.

Identifying risks that aren't risks. Failure to identify the real risks. Failure to adequately assess the impact and cost. Failure to remediate.

Example:

Me: Your project risk log doesn't have anything on it about the failure of the vendor to deliver all the PC's per schedule.

My PM: Well, I talked to them. They said they will deliver.

Me: OK. What happens if they don't deliver?

My PM: Well, I don't think I need to worry about that. They said they will deliver.

Me: OK. Don't you have contract work crews scheduled to come to do the installs the day the PC's are delivered.

My PM: Oh, yes! I've got that all planned out! They will be here.

Me: Great! What happens if the PC's don't show up?

My PM: Oh, well... the vendor said they would be delivered so I haven't planned for that.

Me: Well... the contract work crews get paid even if there are no PC's to install. You'll have to pay them twice when the PC's do show up.

My PM: Umm.... well... that shouldn't happen... couldn't we find some money... umm....

Me: You know what an asshole the project stakeholder is, don't you? I want you to tell him that you didn't consider not having the PC's delivered on time.

My PM: How about I add that to the risk log? And I'll demand that the vendor absorb any excess costs of the PC install due to their delay.

Me: Now we're talking!

Bottom line: You need experience, common sense, and management expertise to run a large project, and the PMP gives you a great set of tools to manage. But, I've seen far too many individuals who got a PMP who are otherwise incompetent. Hell, I replaced them.

sp786
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by sp786 » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:29 pm

Thanks Dragon so PMP seems to have some actual tools that could be used at the right place & time and not some fluff certification.

Any by the way when it comes to banking American banks have AVPs - > VPs - > SVPs -> Director -> MD

but some banks have Associate Director --> Director --> Senior Director --> Executive Director --> MD

The latter is pretty misleading and I had a debate with a big recruitment firm whose name starts with "C". Those guys always post positions for Director / Sr. Director claiming it to be above VP level but in reality none of the major local or MNC banks have such a position that is above VP because they generally are equivalent to AVP/VP/SVP. I guess we need to be careful with such recruitment agencies as well.
Last edited by sp786 on Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Myasis Dragon
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by Myasis Dragon » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:33 pm

nelyanne wrote:
Tue, 20 Jul 2021 12:47 pm
Also worth mentioning:
* sales engineer (sales)
* customer success engineer (sales)
* software engineer in test (tester)
* talent researcher (recruiter)
;)
I became the applications development manager of a large IBM mainframe shop. My initial title was "Programming Manager".

About two years later, I became the "Assistant Director of Programming and Development". Nothing changed except that my boss went from being the "Data Processing Manager" to "Director of Information Technology".

And then, two years later, my boss became, "Executive Director, Information Technology" because all the other department heads had turned into "executive directors". And that meant that I turned into the "Director of Programming and Development", while my number one sidekick in the development group became an assistant director.

Myasis Dragon
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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by Myasis Dragon » Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:43 pm

sp786 wrote:
Tue, 20 Jul 2021 11:29 pm
Thanks Dragon so PMP seems to have some actual tools that could be used at the right place & time and not some fluff certification.

Any by the way when it comes to banking American banks have AVPs - > VPs - > SVPs -> Director -> MD

but some banks have Associate Director --> Director --> Senior Director --> Executive Director --> MD

The latter is pretty misleading and I had a debate with a big recruitment firm whose name starts with "C". Those guys always post positions for Director / Sr. Director claiming it to be above VP level but in reality none of the major local or MNC banks such a position. I guess we need to be careful with such recruitment agencies as well.
Oh, yes, the PMP can have great value. So can the PRINCE2 training. In theory, you're supposed to demonstrate at least 3 years of extensive project management experience, and a degree, in order to sit for the PMP. This rule seems very poorly enforced to me as I met so many "wet behind the ears" PMP's that had to make up their experience.

The other thing is that you can take a 4 day intensive class and pass the PMP on day 5. It's a great way to do it, as opposed to slogging through manuals and test tests for months on end.

But unless you've already got substantial experience (I had more than 20 years of experience), just because the candidate you're interviewing has a PMP doesn't mean that she knows her ass from third base.

Of course, on the opposite end of the spectrum: I let me PMP lapse because I didn't do the training hours. I was interviewing for a job. The guy asks, "You're PMP is expired. How do I know that your project management skills are still relevant?"

"Um, well... I just got through with an 18 month long project, refreshing 17,000 PC's in 17 countries, and I put in managed services and a call center in the Philippines while I was at it. They paid me $1250 per day to do it. Do you think my skills are current?"

Believe it or not, the guy continued to be worried that I didn't have the most current PMP material.

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Re: Career/Industry Change in SG

Post by trojan1988 » Wed, 21 Jul 2021 8:11 am

Just a few of my own thoughts on PMP for what it's worth, and I totally agree with Myasis Dragon.

I was doing a lot of informal project management over last 5 years, I would say. This included research papers, rolling out new hospital departments and initiatives, quality improvement projects. This was in addition to my clinical work. I found that I enjoyed it and had quite a flair for it.

I took the PMP, more as a hobby to see if I could execute my projects a bit more efficiently. While I was strong in scheduling, risk and resource management, I knew very little about procurement and cost management. So it was very useful for me, as a non-professional PMP.

Recently, the PMBOK has changed to agile-focused approach. Which I knew nothing about. So it was a great learning experience for me.

I was headhunted for a role as project manager in healthcare IT recently. The job description specifically states PMP required.

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