Does the government consider race when granting PR?

[smoulder]

^ probably stems from language or classist divide or being reserved or introvert is being mistaken for arrogance

Being on this side and hearing in a language spoken widely by this side, there are definitely more than hints of arrogance. Some of which are carried over from India. I do speak that language so I can hear it plainly. The other side does not, but still gets those vibes.

And some of the sh1t that gets said about locals is not only directed at local tamils. Good reasons why locals do get the vibe despite not understanding the language.

[sp786]

Yes bro back home it is called "Madrasi" Syndrome lol

[smoulder]

Precisely.

[x9200]

Smoulder, sp786, what's your take guys on the issue of self isolation of the Indian diaspora in Singapore? 10 or 15 years ago, what truly shocked me were some Indian colleagues living in Singapore for a couple of years and not being able to use chopsticks or openly refusing to try any other than Indian food. There were also discussion on Indian condo enclaves and such. Do you think such behaviour could contribute to the animosity?
How is the situation now?

If using chopstick is a measure of acceptability then I would call that Sinocentricism. Many Indians are vegetarians with a completely different taste so if that is going to be a reason it is very trivial because I know many who enjoy Old Chang Kee stuff, pandan delights among others within their preference and dietary limitations.

Co-existence is to allow each one to maintain their preference and cultural identity while not using it against them and force them. How would a singaporean railway engineer in India working on a project feel if say a local Indian in India says we dont want Singapore to be involved in this railway project because they refuse to eat with hands our very own Indian meals sitting on the ground and in a banana leaf So it is as trivial as that in my view.

Locals always try to act kind to construction workers and low income foreign workers but keep pointing out such trivial things against EPs or PEPs and their families. So it is a way to break competition from aliens. This is not specific to Singapore but everywhere even in USA when trump came to power one man shot dead an Indian IT engineer on pretext of taking away their jobs. These things are flamed further by magazines like independent, ToC etc.

Not using chopsticks is not a measure but could be a symptom of some problems that may manifest this way. If one is a guest in a country and blatantly refuses to even try to embrace some of the countries customs than for me such person shows disrespect to the people and the culture. It's not about forcing somebody to make a habit and strictly follow local ways, but more to show some interest and to adapt or assimilate on a very basic "technical" level. BTW, chopsticks are not only the Chinese thing (Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese etc.) so the claim of sinocentricism is also not really justified.

[x9200]

Smoulder, sp786, what's your take guys on the issue of self isolation of the Indian diaspora in Singapore? 10 or 15 years ago, what truly shocked me were some Indian colleagues living in Singapore for a couple of years and not being able to use chopsticks or openly refusing to try any other than Indian food. There were also discussion on Indian condo enclaves and such. Do you think such behaviour could contribute to the animosity?
How is the situation now?

Things haven't changed much I guess.

My take is as follows. I grew up mostly in Mumbai which is a melting pot of cultures at least within India. Now, most people outside India tend to underestimate the scale of the country and the diversity in language and culture, but the reality is that India is equivalent in size to western Europe where every state is equivalent to European countries. So if you have French language/food and German language /food in each of those countries, you have a similar equivalence within India. Now, when I left Mumbai to study engineering, I lived with students from all over the country. The thing that I noticed was that Indians from most other parts of the country generally look out for food from their own region. If they can't find it, then they somewhat grudgingly settle for something else or the local food. These same engineers are the ones who form the majority of the white collar diaspora. Obviously they will struggle outside of India especially as sp786 pointed out, since many are vegetarian.

Honestly, I have observed other nationalities too and find that there are plenty of them who are quite insular too. From Filipinos to PRCs to white expats. I'm not quite sure what it is about Indians in particular that attract the same attention. Frankly speaking, look at locals in this region. After growing up in the same country, studying together and going to NS together, you'll still see racial cliques. You rarely see inter racial marriages. You don't see everyone eating Malay food because they retained much of the culture they brought with them to this country.

I personally think that if you travel overseas, you should try to integrate and adapt to the new country. Or region. But that's me. I think I am more of an outlier as are some of the more vocal members in this group who have adapted better to the local culture. We simply aren't the rule, we are the exceptions in our race or nationality. Unfortunately, that's the reality of immigration the world over. Look at some of the other countries. Are white north Americans eating native American food? White Australians eating native Australian food? Just too few examples of immigrants adapting to their new country and not either annihilating them or creating their own little cliques.

I personally think that it is nice to integrate but most of the time, this doesn't happen.

Actually after I posted my part above I had a 2nd thought realizing that the Westerners sort of act this way too or must act this way. Within my social / work circle I don't know any Westerners that does not know how to use chopsticks or stick to Western food only. Perhaps that's why I found what I described above as shocking. But then when I think of many places in many countries I visited, in any of these places, and they could be fancy or shitty, there were always baked beans, fried bacon, scrambled eggs and some miserable hod dog sausages. And people were eating them. So there has to be some strong demand and lack of interest to even try local food. And there were always white folks in any of the surrounding countries queuing in mcdonald's and such. For me this was always something hard to believe with the local food so good, and its variety and quality all around.

[sp786]

^ true but how about foreigners eating local dishes like chicken rice, nasi lemak and old chang kee puffs? Just pinpointing chopstick( you may argue it is multi cultural but in SG's context it need not be),in my personal view, is nitpicking to corner a foreigner based on a trivial issue. and this kind of nitpicking is what fundamentalist publications like Independent ToC etc do.

[x9200]

Agree, it's not carrying any heavy load but perhaps it contributes to the problem? That was my initial question. It really looked to me strange perhaps by the contrast it created to other non-Singapore nations sitting also at the table.

[sp786]

Agree, it's not carrying any heavy load but perhaps it contributes to the problem? That was my initial question. It really looked to me strange perhaps by the contrast it created to other non-Singapore nations sitting also at the table.

Oh if i understand you correctly you're referring to an incident and not making a general statement?

If yes the person who turned it down could have been much more polite.

[smoulder]

McDonald's is in many of these places to cater to local demand by the way

But yea, when I first traveled overseas, it seemed natural to me to adapt to the local way rather than clutching onto things that I left behind. At first, it pissed me off that Indians found it so hard to adjust. But over time, I realized that Indians aren't the only ones who are guilty.

People who adjust willingly are really the outliers among immigrants.

[smoulder]

And by the way, I have a very unpopular opinion about what kind of foreigner gets away with not adapting or generally being a nuisance in a foreign country (by and large). It is the white person who can get away it. There's this thing called white privilege. There are plenty of white people making total asses of themselves all over Asia. But you know who is more likely to be called out for it - yes, coloured folks.

[x9200]

And by the way, I have a very unpopular opinion about what kind of foreigner gets away with not adapting or generally being a nuisance in a foreign country (by and large). It is the white person who can get away it. There's this thing called white privilege. There are plenty of white people making total asses of themselves all over Asia. But you know who is more likely to be called out for it - yes, coloured folks.

I don't know whether this opinion is unpopular but I think the same and I am a white guy. For getting away I think it is a combination of some sort of inferiority complex with assumptions on the social status together with wealth (money) focused culture. When I arrived here 20y ago one of the first thing I noticed was that majority of advertisements portreyed (where applicable) Caucasians. Fortunately it's not a case any longer.
Anyway, my intention was not to single out Indians but just think about possible factors contributing to the problem.

[smoulder]

And by the way, I have a very unpopular opinion about what kind of foreigner gets away with not adapting or generally being a nuisance in a foreign country (by and large). It is the white person who can get away it. There's this thing called white privilege. There are plenty of white people making total asses of themselves all over Asia. But you know who is more likely to be called out for it - yes, coloured folks.

I don't know whether this opinion is unpopular but I think the same and I am a white guy. For getting away I think it is a combination of some sort of inferiority complex with assumptions on the social status together with wealth (money) focused culture. When I arrived here 20y ago one of the first thing I noticed was that majority of advertisements portreyed (where applicable) Caucasians. Fortunately it's not a case any longer.
Anyway, my intention was not to single out Indians but just think about possible factors contributing to the problem.

No worries. I understood why you brought up the topic. Not to single us out.

I believe that most Indians are typical immigrants. Here to make money and not really to partake in the culture. When we do so, we stick out because we are brown people and brown people generally cannot get away with it. And also there's a ton of us. More reason why we tend to stick out. Just like PRCs. Or similar anyway.

[sp786]

Covid has changed it all. To be honest these finer aspects dont matter to public at all even if we speak Hokkien or Mandarin clear HSK L6 exams doesnt matter. This has been politicized and weaponized as a movement and time pass already. Too late.

Even before covid back in 2016
https://theindependent.sg/singaporeans- ... an-expats/