Does the government consider race when granting PR?

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Sun, 11 Jul 2021 10:13 pm

sp786 wrote:
Sun, 11 Jul 2021 7:38 pm

Another strange thing i've noticed is Tamil is a recognized language in Singapore. When an expat Indian tries to speak to a Singaporean Indian who is Tamil as well, the latter avoids Tamil and speaks English or Singlish however that is not the case with other ethnic groups they speak their native language to each other.

The irony is, someone of Chinese race gets attacked by Westerners then Ms. Singapore flashes "Stop Asian Hate" on her dress but they treat Indians the same way albeit the physical altercation but deconstruct them mentally with subtle ways. TBH this is the hypocrisy that one must be frustrated at and not at Indians as a group.
On the first point, you would have noted pgnmks references to different "species" of Indians. This is probably a manifestation of it. It is a thought held by plenty of locals and unfortunately by the foreigners too. So that connection may not be there. It seems more pronounced among tamils as compared to the Chinese - my observation and I've dated plenty of local Chinese girls and I'm married to a Malaysian Chinese. The other possibility is that the local tamils are sometimes conscious to speak in their language because of Chinese kids who tease them - I've witnessed this myself. Or there's the possibility that they really don't speak the language because they speak Malay instead.

I'm not really sure - I'm not a Tamil speaker myself so I don't have first hand experience in trying to speak in Tamil and being received like you did. I can tell you this much though - there are plenty of non tamils who are so ignorant about Tamil despite it being an official language, that they can't tell the difference between Hindi and Tamil - 2 vastly different languages that it's like mistaking mandarin for Malay. What that tells me is that despite growing up in Singapore and having been sufficiently exposed to the language and the people, thanks to the governments efforts, they still somehow managed to form their racial cliques.

Your 2nd point about Ms Singapore is a bit more complex because the girl in question is a Filipino Chinese and herself a victim of similar xenophobia. (she's not Singaporean enough, she's Filipino (forgetting that she's also Chinese), she spoke in tagalog ZOMG)

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by sp786 » Sun, 11 Jul 2021 11:17 pm

Interesting point on Ms. Singapore! Would you have any video or article link to it that you can share?

I found this Singaporean Chinese writer who made the same point on this hypocrisy
Kirsten Han 韩俐颖
@kixes
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Also, what does “Stop Asian Hate” mean to us when we repeatedly silence minorities who speak out about racism *in* Singapore and stubbornly insist “this [racism] is not Singapore” when over and over we see evidence that yes, yes it is?
https://mobile.twitter.com/kixes/status ... 8000232451

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:23 am

sp786 wrote:
Sun, 11 Jul 2021 11:17 pm
Interesting point on Ms. Singapore! Would you have any video or article link to it that you can share?

I found this Singaporean Chinese writer who made the same point on this hypocrisy
Kirsten Han 韩俐颖
@kixes
·
14 May
Also, what does “Stop Asian Hate” mean to us when we repeatedly silence minorities who speak out about racism *in* Singapore and stubbornly insist “this [racism] is not Singapore” when over and over we see evidence that yes, yes it is?
https://mobile.twitter.com/kixes/status ... 8000232451
Just hang around in various forums and you can read these opinions of the average disgruntled xenophobic local.

I don't quite view Ms Singapore bringing up the issue as hypocrisy simply because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.

Air headedness? I think that's the term I would use - Asian hate in the US has nothing to do with someone from this part of the world. And on the other hand, bringing up issues that matter here mean nothing on an international stage, so why not jump on the bandwagon and talk about issues in another country that mean nothing to me and my own country. Well that's just my opinion anyway.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by sp786 » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:44 am

Fair point. :D

Aside to that and relevant to OP's question, I want to express an opinion.

I completed my post graduation here in SG at one of the top 2 universities of SG (don't wish to name it now). There was a topic in a module that pertained to Geopolitical Aspect of Business. I was surprised to note how the professor himself glorified CCP, claimed that is not communism but Chinese Characteristic , Demeaned Trump in open class and supported CCP's governance system referencing it to the Ancient Chinese Classic Sunzi Bingfa a.k.a Art of War by Sun Tzu. This makes me doubt whether the topic of racial bias or privilege is to do with Geopolitics and locals seeing China as "Homeland". Whenever there is talk between China and Singapore i mostly see a like or a heart reaction on FB whereas you clearly can see they using the "laugh" reaction for any news on Bilateral talks between SG and India.

It was during this time the incident on Ramesh who quarreled with his condo security became a huge talk of the town even though he was a Citizen. Around the same time a teenager belonging to majority had killed his mom and grandma for money related issues. For the former the local non-Indians sensationalized it, made a hero out of the condo security guard , they prepared some bogus document by themselves to discredit him and made him vanish even from linkedin while for the latter they sympathized with the teen's mental disorder, worried about his future etc.

This would have geopolitical implications if this goes unchecked i reckon but they probably won't bother because even LKY preferred Homogenous population rather than a very diverse one.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 1:23 am

sp786 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:44 am
Fair point. :D

Aside to that and relevant to OP's question, I want to express an opinion.

I completed my post graduation here in SG at one of the top 2 universities of SG (don't wish to name it now). There was a topic in a module that pertained to Geopolitical Aspect of Business. I was surprised to note how the professor himself glorified CCP, claimed that is not communism but Chinese Characteristic , Demeaned Trump in open class and supported CCP's governance system referencing it to the Ancient Chinese Classic Sunzi Bingfa a.k.a Art of War by Sun Tzu. This makes me doubt whether the topic of racial bias or privilege is to do with Geopolitics and locals seeing China as "Homeland". Whenever there is talk between China and Singapore i mostly see a like or a heart reaction on FB whereas you clearly can see they using the "laugh" reaction for any news on Bilateral talks between SG and India.

It was during this time the incident on Ramesh who quarreled with his condo security became a huge talk of the town even though he was a Citizen. Around the same time a teenager belonging to majority had killed his mom and grandma for money related issues. For the former the local non-Indians sensationalized it, made a hero out of the condo security guard , they prepared some bogus document by themselves to discredit him and made him vanish even from linkedin while for the latter they sympathized with the teen's mental disorder, worried about his future etc.

This would have geopolitical implications if this goes unchecked i reckon but they probably won't bother because even LKY preferred Homogenous population rather than a very diverse one.
There are definitely some Singaporean and Malaysian Chinese who are Sinophiles and this is what some of us were alluding to in the thread about Sinovac. Definitely not everyone. I know plenty who are not. At best, they might appreciate whatever China has achieved, but they are very clear that they are culturally different from PRCs. In much the same way that there is a distinction between Indians from India and locals here.

As for India and geopolitical repercussions because of some racism or xenophobia. I'm a bit skeptical about that. On the one hand, I do think that the government wants to nip it in the bud because as of the recent few quarters, Singapore has emerged as the largest investor in India... (CECA anyone?). Meanwhile, some Singapore news about stray incidents of racism against Indians... How big is that news in India? It's not as you know well. I don't really believe that the government intends to ease immigration for Indians by indulging in the CECA debate as some have suggested.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by x9200 » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 8:49 am

Smoulder, sp786, what's your take guys on the issue of self isolation of the Indian diaspora in Singapore? 10 or 15 years ago, what truly shocked me were some Indian colleagues living in Singapore for a couple of years and not being able to use chopsticks or openly refusing to try any other than Indian food. There were also discussion on Indian condo enclaves and such. Do you think such behaviour could contribute to the animosity?
How is the situation now?

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by sp786 » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 10:46 am

x9200 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 8:49 am
Smoulder, sp786, what's your take guys on the issue of self isolation of the Indian diaspora in Singapore? 10 or 15 years ago, what truly shocked me were some Indian colleagues living in Singapore for a couple of years and not being able to use chopsticks or openly refusing to try any other than Indian food. There were also discussion on Indian condo enclaves and such. Do you think such behaviour could contribute to the animosity?
How is the situation now?
If using chopstick is a measure of acceptability then I would call that Sinocentricism. Many Indians are vegetarians with a completely different taste so if that is going to be a reason it is very trivial because I know many who enjoy Old Chang Kee stuff, pandan delights among others within their preference and dietary limitations.

Co-existence is to allow each one to maintain their preference and cultural identity while not using it against them and force them. How would a singaporean railway engineer in India working on a project feel if say a local Indian in India says we dont want Singapore to be involved in this railway project because they refuse to eat with hands our very own Indian meals sitting on the ground and in a banana leaf :D So it is as trivial as that in my view.

Locals always try to act kind to construction workers and low income foreign workers but keep pointing out such trivial things against EPs or PEPs and their families. So it is a way to break competition from aliens. This is not specific to Singapore but everywhere even in USA when trump came to power one man shot dead an Indian IT engineer on pretext of taking away their jobs. These things are flamed further by magazines like independent, ToC etc.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by malcontent » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:20 am

I have many Indian friends, both local and from India with varying lengths of stay in Singapore, mostly PR but a few converted to SC.

Those from India have often told me they see local Indians as having lost the same morals, virtues and sensibilities that they have. They also tend to hold strongly to Indian traditions such as arranged marriage, which tends to be seen as more of as a last resort by the current generation of local Indians. That said, they tend not to force their kids to believe the same as them - they let their kids decide, and so the next generation is usually more open minded and better integrated.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:29 am

x9200 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 8:49 am
Smoulder, sp786, what's your take guys on the issue of self isolation of the Indian diaspora in Singapore? 10 or 15 years ago, what truly shocked me were some Indian colleagues living in Singapore for a couple of years and not being able to use chopsticks or openly refusing to try any other than Indian food. There were also discussion on Indian condo enclaves and such. Do you think such behaviour could contribute to the animosity?
How is the situation now?
Things haven't changed much I guess.

My take is as follows. I grew up mostly in Mumbai which is a melting pot of cultures at least within India. Now, most people outside India tend to underestimate the scale of the country and the diversity in language and culture, but the reality is that India is equivalent in size to western Europe where every state is equivalent to European countries. So if you have French language/food and German language /food in each of those countries, you have a similar equivalence within India. Now, when I left Mumbai to study engineering, I lived with students from all over the country. The thing that I noticed was that Indians from most other parts of the country generally look out for food from their own region. If they can't find it, then they somewhat grudgingly settle for something else or the local food. These same engineers are the ones who form the majority of the white collar diaspora. Obviously they will struggle outside of India especially as sp786 pointed out, since many are vegetarian.

Honestly, I have observed other nationalities too and find that there are plenty of them who are quite insular too. From Filipinos to PRCs to white expats. I'm not quite sure what it is about Indians in particular that attract the same attention. Frankly speaking, look at locals in this region. After growing up in the same country, studying together and going to NS together, you'll still see racial cliques. You rarely see inter racial marriages. You don't see everyone eating Malay food because they retained much of the culture they brought with them to this country.

I personally think that if you travel overseas, you should try to integrate and adapt to the new country. Or region. But that's me. I think I am more of an outlier as are some of the more vocal members in this group who have adapted better to the local culture. We simply aren't the rule, we are the exceptions in our race or nationality. Unfortunately, that's the reality of immigration the world over. Look at some of the other countries. Are white north Americans eating native American food? White Australians eating native Australian food? Just too few examples of immigrants adapting to their new country and not either annihilating them or creating their own little cliques.

I personally think that it is nice to integrate but most of the time, this doesn't happen.
Last edited by smoulder on Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:39 am

malcontent wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:20 am
Those from India have often told me they see local Indians as having lost the same morals, virtues and sensibilities that they have. They also tend to hold strongly to Indian traditions such as arranged marriage, which tends to be seen as more of as a last resort by the current generation of local Indians. That said, they tend not to force their kids to believe the same as them - they let their kids decide, and so the next generation is usually more open minded and better integrated.
The story of immigrants the world over.

I do want to say this about the local Indians which I think that the recent immigrants should be aware of and sensitive about. The local Indians, a large majority of them were not middle class educated folks who chose to come here for better jobs. They were from a very different india that was being ruled by a leeching foreign invader. They were bundled on to boats and shipped to different parts of the world including British Malaya to work as indentured labourers which is basically a nice word for slavery. The other two races here - one is by and large native to the land and the other ended up as the majority and hence the dominant one. So with this background, most Indians landed up at the bottom of the hierarchy and struggled to overcome their lack of privilege.

Fast forward to the 2000s. Some middle class privileged guy lands here and is shocked that the local Indians have lost their "values" whatever that's supposed to mean. That's not going to make this guy very popular. Because it is quite ignorant and insensitive.

Back in the day, before I met my wife, I dated a few local Indian girls among others. Based on that experience, I could tell that many are absolutely pissed off with Indians from India. In a way, I don't blame them. I just looked past that and didn't take it personally because I was able to grasp some of the reasons why it came down to this. I have heard similar stories of Indians who are descendants of indentured labourers from other countries such as South Africa and Guyana. That they find that they are excluded from the diaspora clique which consists of recent immigrants.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by sp786 » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 1:34 pm

^^^ this

Absolutely and that probably is because of identity crisis.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 2:26 pm

sp786 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 1:34 pm
^^^ this

Absolutely and that probably is because of identity crisis.
Actually it's not. Their point of view is that they are being excluded by the other side. "Our" side is not being sympathetic enough to understand the difficulties they've been through. Not going to win you many friends if you land in a new country and tell them that "they" have an identity crisis.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by sp786 » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 2:44 pm

smoulder wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 2:26 pm
sp786 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 1:34 pm
^^^ this

Absolutely and that probably is because of identity crisis.
Actually it's not. Their point of view is that they are being excluded by the other side. "Our" side is not being sympathetic enough to understand the difficulties they've been through. Not going to win you many friends if you land in a new country and tell them that "they" have an identity crisis.
I dont think so because i am a native tamil speaker and most of the 2nd or 3rd gen local Indians are tamils too. Based on interactions i've had with them the identity crisis is because even though they are locals the majority still separates them based on ethnicity / color and pools them with expat indians should a problem arise and they are OCI card holders as well. So sometimes they feel frustrated and at times under pressure they vocally speak against expat Indians to prove that they belong to SG and not India anymore. But on the otherhand they dont want to antagonize their own ethnicity since many hold OCI cards and some even roots back there.

Material Sympathy, if any, is better shown by locals to uplift and provide equal opportunity to them because expats have no power to provide any support to them except for some moral support.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by smoulder » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 2:56 pm

sp786 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 2:44 pm
smoulder wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 2:26 pm
sp786 wrote:
Mon, 12 Jul 2021 1:34 pm
^^^ this

Absolutely and that probably is because of identity crisis.
Actually it's not. Their point of view is that they are being excluded by the other side. "Our" side is not being sympathetic enough to understand the difficulties they've been through. Not going to win you many friends if you land in a new country and tell them that "they" have an identity crisis.
I dont think so because i am a native tamil speaker and most of the 2nd or 3rd gen local Indians are tamils too. Based on interactions i've had with them the identity crisis is because even though they are locals the majority still separates them based on ethnicity / color and pools them with expat indians should a problem arise and they are OCI card holders as well. So sometimes they feel frustrated and at times under pressure they vocally speak against expat Indians to prove that they belong to SG and not India anymore.

Sympathy if any is better shown by local to uplift and provide equal opportunity to them.
Our side includes a lot more than Tamil speakers who are probably a large part of the problem of not bothering to understand their side.

To be honest, I'm not sure how many Tamil Indians have bothered to speak with locals like you seem to have.

I do agree that other locals here need to stop othering Singaporean Indians.

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Re: Does the government consider race when granting PR?

Post by sp786 » Mon, 12 Jul 2021 3:03 pm

^ probably stems from language or classist divide or being reserved or introvert is being mistaken for arrogance :-k

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