What to do with my unborn son

[ExpatsinSingapore]

Hi there,

Great forum. I have a question to ask on my personal circumstances...

My wife and I are PRs and are expecting a son.

I have been offered a role in another part of the world, but might not move until after covid - possibly late next year (don't want to risk travelling in pregnancy and early after birth)

There are a few questions the gurus here might be able to help with.
- if we leave and are no longer employed in Singapore will our re-entry permits lapse or would they be renewable even when we are no longer in Singapore?
- I guess if not that means we are no longer PRs?
- even if we no longer have REP, would we still be able to contribute to CPF?
- if we apply for PR for our soon to be born son (and leave in 2022) how would that be affected if we lose our REP? Would he no longer be considered a PR?

I'd appreciate any additional thoughts you might have.

[PNGMK]

1. On PTS for sure they will time out. On family ties the evidence at least in my case is that you can successfully renew at least once maybe more.
2. Yes.
3. Mmmm - your CPF account remains open even if not PR. I've not heard of anyone contributing to CPF when no longer a PR but I see no reason why you couldn't. As an aside I absolutely encourage you NOT to close your CPF account but treat it was a bond investment with the full faith and security of the Singapore govt behind it (and a bunch of other reasons).
4. Your son's PR is per your son. If he has it and is not in Singapore to renew the same as 1.

Note: if you're being transferred by a Singapore Legal Entity to work overseas it is possible to argue that you are seconded and arrange for CPF payments to continue to be made and the ICA seems to take a better view of REP renewals.

[malcontent]

The other thing to consider, if there is a chance that you might leave Singapore and never come back... then you may want to think twice about signing your son up for future NS obligations by making him a PR at this point in his life. Not that it would be a bad thing for him, but if he doesn’t grow up here and you are living half way around the world when the time comes for him to serve, it could be expensive and inconvenient.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Search the NS threads for some of my posts regarding my former Boss' son and the predicament he now finds himself in. Regarding having a father who though is was smarter than the ICA & Mindef. LIttle things can catch you up. The son was still in lower secondary school when I joined the company and told the father what was going to happen if he continued with his 'scheme' to keep the son out of NS. When they came back from the UK were the father worked for 20 years, the wife and daughter obtained PR here, (Father is a Singaporean but a PR would have caused the same situation) The put the son in a PAP Kindergarten for 3 months and then figured out they needed to take him out and put him in an International School. When the PR was applied for, they didn't list the son on the application (both children were born in the UK and had UK citizenship). The mother (Eastern European) and Daughter both got their PR, the son was put on a Student Visa and stayed on it until he finished his A levels. Then he went back to the UK where his father still owned an apartment/flat and he proceeded to do his B.Sc & M.Sc in Civil engrg. Once he finished Daddy asked me to apply for an EP for him to join the father's company. Over then next couple of years we applied and were always rejected. The rejection notice always came back with the same explanation. It very succinctly said "you have outstanding issues with MinDef and until these are sorted out, any application for a work pass cannot be entertained. The father just happened to be a card carrying PAP member and the 3 months in Kindergarten sunk him as the application listed to boy parents as PR & Singaporean. Once it gets into the system, it stays there. Today, he's literally stuck in Yangon where Daddy opened a branch of the company and made the son the MD there. The son can occasionally come back to Singapore on an SVP but that's it. ICA has a VERY LONG MEMORY.

[PNGMK]

I guess OP should ask himself if they really want to be PR's or expats in another country. There is not really a "have your cake and eat it" situation available here (not in the long term).

[ExpatsinSingapore]

Thanks a lot everyone for your feedback.

If I understand the contributors in the forum, I would be benefitting from Singapore if I continue to have a CPF when I leave (thus earning interest from the government) - forget for now about continuing to contribute.
This would mean if we wanted our kid to have the possibility to live and work here (as an adult) he would need to do his NS, even if both parents leave permanently in the next year or so.
Have I misunderstood the general thrust of this?
Or if we leave on schedule (covid permitting) and our son is less than a year old, would he still be able to live and work here as an adult, without serving NS.

I've read a lot on this forum which tells me that our actions in the coming year could stop him from working or living in Singapore in the future. We want to avoid that problem.

[sundaymorningstaple]

The easiest way is for him to serve NS. Anything else is a virtual minefield which trips most parents up. However up until the child actually starts schooling, (kindergarten) you should be okay IF you divest yourselves of your PR fully if giving up PR. CPF notwithstanding, that can stay there as having it has no bearing on PR, however, taking it all out possibly will have a bearing on future applications for PR should you want to return. (This is a bit different than if you are a SGC and trying to get a son out of NS as leaving the CPF in place and/or owning an HDB will indicate the leaving of a back door open to Singapore later if the parent hasn't given up their SGC first) In fact, before you could get a PR application accepted, you would have to replace all the withdrawn CPF Funds AND an additional amount equal to the amount of interest said funds would have accrued had they been left in situ for however many years between withdrawal and wanting to reapply. Usually, due to the attractive rates, it puts a damper on re-instating the CPF funds plus accrued interest. Again, another tripping point is if you don't apply for PR for the boy, and you are both PR's you will be signaling to ICA that you are thinking about a way to get him out of NS. This could have ramifications of not being able to renew your own re-entry permits at some point in the future. I do believe that as long as you give up your PR before the child start schooling, it shouldn't jeopardize the child's future entry for work here. (but don't try to give up your PR to get an EP as the cat will be out of the bag then). I'm not trying to give any advice here as each has to weigh the pros & cons based on their own circumstances. I went through all this over 30 years ago. I made my decisions and my son made his decisions , having had his obligations explained to him from the age of 5 through 16 annually (he had dual citizenship).

[malcontent]

Even in my situation where I’m a long-term EP holder married to a second generation PR with a son on DP studying in International School... I’m well aware that it may be difficult or impossible for my son to obtain an EP one day. But, since he has US citizenship, I see it as and acceptable risk, he will have other options.

[ExpatsinSingapore]

Thank you PNGMK, sundaymorningstaple and malcontent.

I think I can summarise your advice.
Given I expect to leave Singapore in the coming year or two for this new job opportunity, I won't apply for him to be PR.

However, if another opportunity keeps me in Singapore (since I am likely not moving until after covid) and he starts school, I will apply for him to be PR and then he can serve his NS. Singapore seems almost too protective so I think NS will knock the softness out of him.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Sounds like a plan. Interesting, your last comment. I'm ex-military VN Era. I believe in National Service as well. My son doesn't regret it as all. It is also a good chance to make network connection of all types of people who can be a big help later on in life. This dirtball floating through space is pretty small as it is without deliberately blocking off parts of it.